Detroit vs. Torq Locker On Road Comparison?

[Sean]

JFYI: Vehicle is '99 4Runner 3.4L, 5 spd, D70U (or D60 rear), 5.86 gears, 40s. Rear axle application (front axle is a KP60 with hubs). Only reason I've ditched the 14B rear is for the gear ratio that I need.

Has anyone run both of these lockers on the street that can compare?

Torq's site says, "Best On-Road manners of any automatic locker; the Key-Way design is more forgiving than the rigid dowel pin design. The Key-Way allows for smoother locker engagement. By eliminating the spacers they eliminated the leading cause of the pop some people experience with automatic lockers."

That's the major reason for my looking into this auto locker (and the fact that I like what I see in the design). I may be driving it on snowy/icy roads and figured it would be less of a handful than the Detroits I've had in the past (they weren't that bad on ice/snow but you did have to be mindful with throttle and brake inputs).

After reading some reviews though....the people who have run the Torq say its really harsh on the street...only one reviewer mentioned having prior automatic locker experience and didn't say which brand but said Torq was more harsh. I'm discounting most of the 'harsh' reviews to people who probably never had an auto locker before.

My opinion (having run lunchbox lockers, ARBs, and Detroits) is that the lunchboxes were less harsh on the road than the Detroits (no, I'm not doing an ARB on this build), but if the Torq isn't similar then I might as well do the Detroit since I already have the 70U (the Torq isn't available for the D70) and I'd have to try and source an appropriate year 60..which in my area is proving difficult or ridiculously expensive for a ~25 year old axle.

 

[Wfoyota]

Assuming we are talking rear application? A detroit or grizzly locker has always seemed to have decent road manners from my experience. My buggy with spool front and grizzly rear is tits on the road even at 60 mph. I'm no help on the torq locker though, never been around one. Most are prolly aware but I can say that auto locker of any kind in front application without locking hubs on the road is a death trap. Put an aussie locker in the front of my daily tj and if it didnt have an old d44 with locking hubs on it, I would have been immediately pulling it back out. All these jeep people that claim "it's not that bad" is straight bull crap.

 

[Sean]

Assuming we are talking rear application? A detroit or grizzly locker has always seemed to have decent road manners from my experience. My buggy with spool front and grizzly rear is tits on the road even at 60 mph. I'm no help on the torq locker though, never been around one. Most are prolly aware but I can say that auto locker of any kind in front application without locking hubs on the road is a death trap. Put an aussie locker in the front of my daily tj and if it didnt have an old d44 with locking hubs on it, I would have been immediately pulling it back out. All these jeep people that claim "it's not that bad" is straight bull crap.

Yes, rear application (amended first post to make it more clear; sorry for the confusion). I'd prefer a Grizzly over a Detroit, but again...limited choices with a D70. It's basically Lock-right, Detroit or ARB (or spool) and out of those options, I'm choosing Detroit.

If I want the Torq...I'm going to have to find a Dana 60.

 

[welndmn]

I don't live in the snow, only visit it, but I know any automatic locker is a handful on ice, I don't think there is a solution to that, no matter what the design.

 

[Sean]

I don't live in the snow, only visit it, but I know any automatic locker is a handful on ice, I don't think there is a solution to that, no matter what the design.

And I've only driven my Detroits on ice. I never drove the Lockright on ice....I just know there wasn't the 1/4 turn of driveshaft wind up from a stop, nor the 'gunshot' type popping while turning in a parking lot at slow speed. Those were both slow speed stuff...slower than even 25-40mph you'd likely be driving in snowy, potentially icy, conditions. I'm not really sure I noticed any difference at higher speeds between the different brands/types....and if that's the case with the Torq, then I might as well just go Detroit in the 70 I already have.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

My wife daily drove my stretched 6speed TJ with a Detroit locker out back for years in all kinds of weather and never complained about it.

Don't be a bitch

 

[TrailTamer]

I can say that auto locker of any kind in front application without locking hubs on the road is a death trap. Put an aussie locker in the front of my daily tj and if it didnt have an old d44 with locking hubs on it, I would have been immediately pulling it back out. All these jeep people that claim "it's not that bad" is straight bull crap.

what did your locker do to you even when in 2wd on the road?

I daily drove my XJ (5 speed manual) with Aussie rear (C8.25) and grizzly in front (D30). The grizzly in front was 100% invisible except when in 4wd and trying to turn on slippery surface (snow, ice, mud, whatever).

I just found out my rear Aussie locker issues were caused by bent housing, so I can't really 100% say, but I can tell you with absolute certain that the Grizzly locker will make for FAR better driving experience. Aussie have lots of slop and I can't imagine ANY drop-in locker will come close to as tight as the Grizzly. On snowy/icy road, either downshifting or engine braking (manual trans) while in 4wd will require my full attention as the grizzly engage right away, while the rear Aussie will freespin doing nothing for seems like days. Punching on gas will make for a minor torque steer as a FWD.

With it being a D70U, Couldn't you just get a D60 Detroit or Grizzly to modify and drop that sumbitch in? Aren't D70U carriers very close to same as standard D60 carriers??

 

[Sean]

My wife daily drove my stretched 6speed TJ with a Detroit locker out back for years in all kinds of weather and never complained about it.

Don't be a bitch

Texas typically doesn't see the type of snow/ice for the length of time Montana does. 😉

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

Texas typically doesn't see the type of snow/ice for the length of time Montana does. 😉

We lived up in New England when I had that TJ. It tends to snow up there in the winter...

 

[Sean]

what did your locker do to you even when in 2wd on the road?

I daily drove my XJ (5 speed manual) with Aussie rear (C8.25) and grizzly in front (D30). The grizzly in front was 100% invisible except when in 4wd and trying to turn on slippery surface (snow, ice, mud, whatever).

I just found out my rear Aussie locker issues were caused by bent housing, so I can't really 100% say, but I can tell you with absolute certain that the Grizzly locker will make for FAR better driving experience. Aussie have lots of slop and I can't imagine ANY drop-in locker will come close to as tight as the Grizzly. On snowy/icy road, either downshifting or engine braking (manual trans) while in 4wd will require my full attention as the grizzly engage right away, while the rear Aussie will freespin doing nothing for seems like days. Punching on gas will make for a minor torque steer as a FWD.

With it being a D70U, Couldn't you just get a D60 Detroit or Grizzly to modify and drop that sumbitch in? Aren't D70U carriers very close to same as standard D60 carriers??

Actually considered this and contacted Carl Jantz about the feasibility of running a D60 carrier in a D70U housing since it's similar to the Jana 76. I don't think it's do-able b/c the distance between the bearing journals in a D70 in the housing are farther apart than in a D60...so you wind up with an unsupported (or less than fully supported) gap. I sent the email over the weekend though and haven't heard back yet.

The Jana 76 can use a D60 carrier...but that's b/c it's going in a D60 housing to begin with. Usually, the Jana 76 uses a D70 carrier that is cut down where the carrier bearing sits to fit the D60 housing.

As an aside, the D70U uses smaller pinion bearings than a normal D70...I think they are close to or the same as D60 bearings (or at least one of them is). The carriers are different though dimensionally.

 

[TrailTamer]

Look like will need at least the adapter ring and probably either thick shim/spacer or wider carrier bearings?

Pic source: Jantz Engineering: Installation Guide

 

[Sean]

We lived up in New England when I had that TJ. It tends to snow up there in the winter...

Fair enough. 😀 And not to put to fine a point on it...I did mention it was manageable, but I'd prefer it to be the best it can be with an auto locker. It's all about optimizing.

 

[Sean]

Look like will need at least the adapter ring and probably either thick or wider carrier bearings?

Pic source: Jantz Engineering: Installation Guide

And to redrill the ring gear and plug the old ring gear bolt holes. I think you'd just use a full D70U Master Install kit for the bearings...but might need a spacer on at least one side to take up the slack.

 

[TrailTamer]

Now this gets rather interesting as you will need a D70 Carrier, but it does not matter whether or not it is a high or a low speed. Although the carrier offsets are the same amount on a D60 & D70 (1/8”) the actual placement on the carrier is about 1/16” different. Thus by using a thinner bearing on one side of the D70 carrier and a thicker shim stack on the other side you can move it side to side quite a bit. Read closely:
Low on Low
If you are putting a Low speed Ring and pinion on a low speed carrier the flange on the carrier will be too close to the pinion thus a thin race and spacer is used on the ring gear side of the carrier and a thick shim stack is used on the pinion side of the carrier to move the flange away from the pinion.
Low on High
If you are putting a low speed Ring and pinion on a high speed carrier the flange on the carrier will be too far away from the pinion thus a thin race and spacer is used on the pinion side of the carrier and a thick shim stack is used on the ring gear side of the carrier to move the flange towards the pinion.
High on high
If you are putting a high speed Ring and pinion on a high speed carrier the flange on the carrier will be too close to the pinion thus a thin race and spacer is used on the ring gear side of the carrier and a thick shim stack is used on the pinion side of the carrier to move the flange away from the pinion.

Carrier widths no bearings on carrier
Ref: D60 spool 8 5/16"
D60 stock open carrier 8 916"
D70 stock open carrier 8 7/16"
D70 Power lock 8 7/16"

Dana 70 gears fit dana 60 ???

www.pirate4x4.com

 

[Sean]

Dana 70 gears fit dana 60 ???

www.pirate4x4.com

That info was also on the Jantz site. It'll be interesting to see what Carl has to say about the 60 carrier in the 70U housing. I have to buy gears, master install and the carrier/locker anyway and the cost difference between a full Detroit for a D70 and a new Spicer carrier, Torq locker and having Jantz do the gear bolt redrill/fill and concentric spacer is pretty much a wash.

 

[Sean]

I kinda wonder how different the spider gears are between the 60 and 70. If the open carriers are that close (and I'm shocked if the numbers in red are right since the stock open D70 carrier is 1/8" narrower than the D60)...I wonder if putting a D60 Torq in a standard open D70 carrier would be another potential work around.

 

[2big bronco]

Spoil, no noise and 100% predictable

 

[Sean]

Spool, no noise and 100% predictable

I honestly considered it...but I'm just thinking the tire wear would be a lot worse than with an auto locker.

 

[Wfoyota]

what did your locker do to you even when in 2wd on the road?

It's absolute misery in 2wd or 4h on the road with the hubs locked in.

 

[TrailTamer]

It's absolute misery in 2wd or 4h on the road with the hubs locked in.

something is wrong with your locker.

 

[FelixstoweF.2]

JFYI: Vehicle is '99 4Runner 3.4L, 5 spd, D70U (or D60 rear), 5.86 gears, 40s. Rear axle application (front axle is a KP60 with hubs). Only reason I've ditched the 14B rear is for the gear ratio that I need.

Has anyone run both of these lockers on the street that can compare?

Torq's site says, "Best On-Road manners of any automatic locker; the Key-Way design is more forgiving than the rigid dowel pin design. The Key-Way allows for smoother locker engagement. By eliminating the spacers they eliminated the leading cause of the pop some people experience with automatic lockers."

That's the major reason for my looking into this auto locker (and the fact that I like what I see in the design). I may be driving it on snowy/icy roads and figured it would be less of a handful than the Detroits I've had in the past (they weren't that bad on ice/snow but you did have to be mindful with throttle and brake inputs).

After reading some reviews though....the people who have run the Torq say its really harsh on the street...only one reviewer mentioned having prior automatic locker experience and didn't say which brand but said Torq was more harsh. I'm discounting most of the 'harsh' reviews to people who probably never had an auto locker before.

My opinion (having run lunchbox lockers, ARBs, and Detroits) is that the lunchboxes were less harsh on the road than the Detroits (no, I'm not doing an ARB on this build), but if the Torq isn't similar then I might as well do the Detroit since I already have the 70U (the Torq isn't available for the D70) and I'd have to try and source an appropriate year 60..which in my area is proving difficult or ridiculously expensive for a ~25 year old axle.

Are you talking about Torqsen type lockers?

 

[arse_sidewards]

Spoil, no noise and 100% predictable

Predictably sideways down the crown of the road anytime ice is encountered on a non-straightaway.

 

[Sean]

Are you talking about Torqsen type lockers?

No. Torq Locker from Torq Masters: Automatic Locker – Torq-Masters Basically a 'better designed' drop in 'lunchbox' locker like the Spartan or Aussie but without the small dowel pins.

I think the Torsen's were big on Humvees, IIRC.

 

[Sean]

Predictably sideways down the crown of the road anytime ice is encountered on a non-straightaway.

To be fair, that's going to happen with any auto locker if you're on the gas and it's locked.

 

[FelixstoweF.2]

No. Torq Locker from Torq Masters: Automatic Locker – Torq-Masters Basically a 'better designed' drop in 'lunchbox' locker like the Spartan or Aussie but without the small dowel pins.

I think the Torsen's were big on Humvees, IIRC.

Yes, they used them, my big Walter Trucks use a similar unit. I"ve never heard of Torq-masters before. Are they just a regular clutch type locker?

 

[LScout800]

Yes, they used them, my big Walter Trucks use a similar unit. I"ve never heard of Torq-masters before. Are they just a regular clutch type locker?

They are a drop in lunchbox locker that replace the spider gears in a stock open carrier. Fully mechanical auto locker, no clutch packs.

This was the one I put in my 60. You can see how they key together rather than use little pins that brake unlike other lunchboxes. Don't even have to remove the shafts to put one in.

 

[FelixstoweF.2]

They are a drop in lunchbox locker that replace the spider gears in a stock open carrier. Fully mechanical auto locker, no clutch packs.

This was the one I put in my 60. You can see how they key together rather than use little pins that brake unlike other lunchboxes. Don't even have to remove the shafts to put one in.

Oh cool thanks.

 

[Sean]

Yes, they used them, my big Walter Trucks use a similar unit. I"ve never heard of Torq-masters before. Are they just a regular clutch type locker?

No clutches....they're just a lunchbox locker; 9310 or similar innards that drop into an open carrier. Ratcheting style automatic locker.

 

[Sean]

They are a drop in lunchbox locker that replace the spider gears in a stock open carrier. Fully mechanical auto locker, no clutch packs.

This was the one I put in my 60. You can see how they key together rather than use little pins that brake unlike other lunchboxes. Don't even have to remove the shafts to put one in.

What's your take on how it behaves on the street (or are you offroad only)?

 

[FelixstoweF.2]

No clutches....they're just a lunchbox locker; 9310 or similar innards that drop into an open carrier. Ratcheting style automatic locker.

My experience is only with ARB air lockers for my M35A2 or Air Lockers in my Eaton Axles or the Walter Torque Proportioning Automatic lockers (similar to the Torsen). So, I'm really curious how these does they make them with different engagement thresholds?