Defender 110 crawler/camper

[ash]

Oh noes the chilens and clean air.

Are you going to be running fender flares on it?

I still don't know. The stock flares will need to be cut so much that there probably won't be anything left of them, and there's one set of aftermarket flares that I don't hate, but they're expensive. What do you think? Maybe I'll play around with that a little tomorrow and see what I can come up with.

 

[ash]

Scored two 8274’s off Marketplace for $75. I’ve always loved the look of them and couldn’t say no. Got one all stripped down and blasted, powdercoated the drum, painted the body, put it back together with all new bearings, brakes, bushings and seals. Need a motor still, but pretty stoked with how it came out. Now I have to cut up this nice bumper and make it fit

 

[shortbus4x4]

I still don't know. The stock flares will need to be cut so much that there probably won't be anything left of them, and there's one set of aftermarket flares that I don't hate, but they're expensive. What do you think? Maybe I'll play around with that a little tomorrow and see what I can come up with.

Those tires look like they stick way out. Your body will stay cleaner and you'll meet less cops with flares. And since I'm older now and no longer a kid I like my tires mostly under cover.

And long distance trips? Definitely flares.

 

[elbekko]

I still don't know. The stock flares will need to be cut so much that there probably won't be anything left of them, and there's one set of aftermarket flares that I don't hate, but they're expensive. What do you think? Maybe I'll play around with that a little tomorrow and see what I can come up with.

Soft flares from conveyor belt look surprisingly good on these trucks.
Otherwise the Bowler arches look good and fit a 37, but they're eyewateringly expensive new, those are probably the ones you mean?

 

[Dougal]

Yeah, 200/LT77 originally. I haven't even heard a 2.8 idle and have gone into this completely blind lol. I've heard positive things from guys who I trust, and there seems to be some solid options on the table to turn the power up which I fully intend to do. The only knock I've really heard is that it's laggy, but I think the automatic will help with that.

The trans adapter is from Chad over at Quickdraw, and the LT230 adapter is from RW Engineering.

A few words of warning. My country got a lot of Cummins 2.8's in Chinese Foton utes. They didn't last well. I know one guy who had two by 100,000km. Keep the 200tdi for a spare. Trying to tune out lag means over-fuelling them. Which will shorten lifespan further. These are not B series cummins. These are Chinese cummins.

Regarding LT230 adapters. Shaft into the LT230 is a common failure point. Very few people appreciate the steel grades required to hold up in that size. I'm curently getting a proper one made for an Aussie after the USA sourced ones weren't up to it:


This is what the stress profile looks like with 2000Nm twist on them. It takes the right grade of steel and heat-treatment to survive. Mine has ~15 years on it after I found a good enough tool steel. Ray was only getting months:

 

[ash]

A few words of warning. My country got a lot of Cummins 2.8's in Chinese Foton utes. They didn't last well. I know one guy who had two by 100,000km. Keep the 200tdi for a spare. Trying to tune out lag means over-fuelling them. Which will shorten lifespan further. These are not B series cummins. These are Chinese cummins.

Regarding LT230 adapters. Shaft into the LT230 is a common failure point. Very few people appreciate the steel grades required to hold up in that size. I'm curently getting a proper one made for an Aussie after the USA sourced ones weren't up to it:


This is what the stress profile looks like with 2000Nm twist on them. It takes the right grade of steel and heat-treatment to survive. Mine has ~15 years on it after I found a good enough tool steel. Ray was only getting months:

We'll see how it holds up. I could never live with a Tdi, so if it comes down to a full engine swap maybe I'll try that M57 out, or go back to my original OM606 plans. I'm also not planning on pushing this thing super hard and if I wanted power I'd have LS swapped it.

As for transfer case adapters, I can't speak to the quality of the Quickdraw components. I do have heaps of experience with the RW products and have tons of confidence in them. Some of the very early shafts they were producing experienced failures, but after changing the heat treat process and slightly modifying the profile of the shaft itself, I don't think there have been any. Hell I grenaded a built Salisbury behind an LT4 and the 300M adapter suffered no damage upon inspection.

 

[06h3]

Super interested how you make that 10 speed work

 

[ash]

Those tires look like they stick way out. Your body will stay cleaner and you'll meet less cops with flares. And since I'm older now and no longer a kid I like my tires mostly under cover.

And long distance trips? Definitely flares.

Fiiiine old man I'll stick some flares on it

Soft flares from conveyor belt look surprisingly good on these trucks.
Otherwise the Bowler arches look good and fit a 37, but they're eyewateringly expensive new, those are probably the ones you mean?

Not those, but the Nakatenenga flares. They're a little more factory looking, and it actually looks like Britpart has a version of them for $200. Maybe that's the ticket.

 

[ash]

Super interested how you make that 10 speed work

The plan is to develop a J1939 to GMLAN signal converter that can feed the 10 speed the data it needs to operate. There's also a company that offers a fully standalone, open source and programmable TCM with predefined modes for various transmissions. They tell me they've got a few 10R80's running around with their controller, so it may be an option for the 10L as well.

 

[Peter S]

A few words of warning. My country got a lot of Cummins 2.8's in Chinese Foton utes. They didn't last well. I know one guy who had two by 100,000km. Keep the 200tdi for a spare. Trying to tune out lag means over-fuelling them. Which will shorten lifespan further. These are not B series cummins. These are Chinese cummins.

Regarding LT230 adapters. Shaft into the LT230 is a common failure point. Very few people appreciate the steel grades required to hold up in that size. I'm curently getting a proper one made for an Aussie after the USA sourced ones weren't up to it:


This is what the stress profile looks like with 2000Nm twist on them. It takes the right grade of steel and heat-treatment to survive. Mine has ~15 years on it after I found a good enough tool steel. Ray was only getting months:

I'm having a similar Lt230 input.
Shaft from my th400 to lt230 All twisted up
Now i'm gonna try my luck with a 300M one

 

[ash]

One thing I'm still pondering...

I don't have the coin to drop on RCV's for the front axle of this thing, so I'm running normal U-jointed front shafts. These are full-time transfer cases, so the truck is all wheel drive. I'm currently set up for drive slugs, but I'm wondering if the sinusoidal nature of a U-joint will make it drive like shit on the street. Should I maybe switch out to a locking hub? It's not ideal, but I can lock the transfer case and just run it with the front hubs unlocked on the street.

 

[arse_sidewards]

I'm currently set up for drive slugs, but I'm wondering if the sinusoidal nature of a U-joint will make it drive like shit on the street.

No you'll be fine as evidenced by a ton of non-CAD Dodge/Jeep products

 

[ash]

No you'll be fine as evidenced by a ton of non-CAD Dodge/Jeep products

But is the front axle driven on those setups? Or does that even matter?

 

[elbekko]

Fiiiine old man I'll stick some flares on it



Not those, but the Nakatenenga flares. They're a little more factory looking, and it actually looks like Britpart has a version of them for $200. Maybe that's the ticket.

Britpart is always a crapshoot, so maybe. You'd think they can't get much wrong with a wheel arch, but they'd probably manage to make it upside down or something

Alternatively, find a friend that's good with fibreglass?

 

[ash]

Britpart is always a crapshoot, so maybe. You'd think they can't get much wrong with a wheel arch, but they'd probably manage to make it upside down or something

Alternatively, find a friend that's good with fibreglass?

I've actually been pretty surprised by Britpart. I've got a wholesale account with them and a lot of what they stock and offer is Genuine Land Rover, or other name brand quality aftermarket. I just ordered a VDO fuel sender for a Puma tank from them, which we all know is what comes out of a Land Rover box, for $70 less than the Land Rover stickered one. Now, if it comes in a blue bag....buyer beware. I don't think they actually make these flares, though.

As for glass....I'd rather run something that I won't cry over if it gets smashed.

On another topic....let's talk driveline angles. As it sits, my upper and lowers links are 36" long. At full bump my pinion is pointed slightly above the output flange, and at full droop it's a few degrees down, but not to a severity that I think would be an issue. Honestly I can't remember what my motivation was for equal length links, but here we are. Given what you guys can see in the photos, should I go back and shorten the upper slightly to keep the pinion pointed more toward the transfer case, or does this look like it'll be ok?

Pictures suck but hopefully give a decent representation.

 

[arse_sidewards]

But is the front axle driven on those setups? Or does that even matter?

Yes. Sometimes. Depending on how the vehicle was equipped.

Also there was plenty of full time 4wd NP203 equipped trucks back in the day that didn't shake themselves apart.

 

[Treefrog]

But is the front axle driven on those setups? Or does that even matter?

Grand Cherokees had the np242 full time capable transfer case. Though 2wd was recommended for dry street use.

 

[ash]

Grand Cherokees had the np242 full time capable transfer case. Though 2wd was recommended for dry street use.

Don't you skip over my suspension question! Also, where in CFL are you? Guess I'll drive it with the slugs and switch to a locking hub if it sucks.

Got the pitman arm drilled out. Wall thickness is.....minimal. Thinking of just a simple U-shaped saddle out of 1/4" or 3/8" that I can weld to the outer face of the arm. Or should I do more?

 

[Treefrog]

Don't you skip over my suspension question! Also, where in CFL are you?

I must have missed the question then. If its about the driveshaft, a few degrees should not be a huge deal. If you have your stuff plugged into the 4 link calc, it has a tab that can tell you the angles of the joints and driveshaft lengths.

Daytona area.

 

[ash]

I must have missed the question then. If its about the driveshaft, a few degrees should not be a huge deal. If you have your stuff plugged into the 4 link calc, it has a tab that can tell you the angles of the joints and driveshaft lengths.

Daytona area.

Nice, I’m just west of you in Ocala. I’ll tinker around with some different setups in the calculator a bit but I think it’s probably good as is.

 

[Dougal]

I'm having a similar Lt230 input.
Shaft from my th400 to lt230 All twisted up
Now i'm gonna try my luck with a 300M one

300M all depends on the heat-treatment. It can be soft as mild-steel if they don't know what they're doing. I'm using a steel that's a shade harder/stronger than 300M can be but one that is more stable during heat-treatment. Even then my first shaft swelled in diameter and shrunk in length slightly. Enough that it went from being tight on gearbox end and loose on LT230 to loose on gearbox and tight in LT230.

One thing I'm still pondering...

I don't have the coin to drop on RCV's for the front axle of this thing, so I'm running normal U-jointed front shafts. These are full-time transfer cases, so the truck is all wheel drive. I'm currently set up for drive slugs, but I'm wondering if the sinusoidal nature of a U-joint will make it drive like shit on the street. Should I maybe switch out to a locking hub? It's not ideal, but I can lock the transfer case and just run it with the front hubs unlocked on the street.

In the front swivels it's going to depend how many corners you drive. U-joints will be fine highway cruising but will be terrible around town. I would go CV joints every time.
How're the front shaft UJ angles looking at ride height?

Suspension questions:
What spring and damper rates did you go with?
Do assymetrical 3 links cause squat/jacking differently on each side? The physics suggest they could. Might have to make one from lego to test.

 

[Treefrog]

Nice, I’m just west of you in Ocala. I’ll tinker around with some different setups in the calculator a bit but I think it’s probably good as is.

Cool. If you are hitting Hardrock or the national forest for the test drive and want a tag along let me know.

 

[Treefrog]

Do assymetrical 3 links cause squat/jacking differently on each side? The physics suggest they could. Might have to make one from lego to test.

3 Links can cause that, but they are also the only common solid axle suspension that can be set up to not roll under throttle.

 

[ash]

300M all depends on the heat-treatment. It can be soft as mild-steel if they don't know what they're doing. I'm using a steel that's a shade harder/stronger than 300M can be but one that is more stable during heat-treatment. Even then my first shaft swelled in diameter and shrunk in length slightly. Enough that it went from being tight on gearbox end and loose on LT230 to loose on gearbox and tight in LT230.



In the front swivels it's going to depend how many corners you drive. U-joints will be fine highway cruising but will be terrible around town. I would go CV joints every time.
How're the front shaft UJ angles looking at ride height?

Suspension questions:
What spring and damper rates did you go with?
Do assymetrical 3 links cause squat/jacking differently on each side? The physics suggest they could. Might have to make one from lego to test.

Driveshaft at ride height is money. I was able to set that when I built the axe out, so no issues there. I'll likely end up going with locking hubs and running the truck in 2WD with the tcase locked on the street. $3k on a set of custom CV's probably ain't in the budget.

Couldn't tell you where we landed on actual valving numbers, but just guessing on corner weights based on a 90 I built previously we started off with 250/350 on springs. Accutune has a killer spring swap program so it wont cost any to play around with a few setups until we get spring rates dialed.

I imagine you could see plenty of jacking or squatting if the upper link was at a crazy angle, but that's in Treefrogs area of expertise. There's only 1" of difference in height from the axle end to the frame end of the upper link at ride height, so hopefully it doesn't have too much impact. Not positive if my inputs on the calculator are accurate, but it currently shows 45% antidive at ride height.

Cool. If you are hitting Hardrock or the national forest for the test drive and want a tag along let me know.

I'll let you know once it's finally to that point.

 

[Dougal]

Driveshaft at ride height is money. I was able to set that when I built the axe out, so no issues there. I'll likely end up going with locking hubs and running the truck in 2WD with the tcase locked on the street. $3k on a set of custom CV's probably ain't in the budget.

Couldn't tell you where we landed on actual valving numbers, but just guessing on corner weights based on a 90 I built previously we started off with 250/350 on springs. Accutune has a killer spring swap program so it wont cost any to play around with a few setups until we get spring rates dialed.

I imagine you could see plenty of jacking or squatting if the upper link was at a crazy angle, but that's in Treefrogs area of expertise. There's only 1" of difference in height from the axle end to the frame end of the upper link at ride height, so hopefully it doesn't have too much impact. Not positive if my inputs on the calculator are accurate, but it currently shows 45% antidive at ride height.



I'll let you know once it's finally to that point.

Spring rates sound too hard for flex and ride. I'm running 170lb/in fronts and 200-300lb/in progressive rears.

Cross axle with all your weight on opposite corners:
Call it 1800kg sprung, 450kg/corner (1000lb in round numbers).
250lb/in fronts will only compress 4"
350lb/in rears will only compress 3 inches.

Just guessing at weights I'd start with 200lb/in front and 250lb/in rears. Can calculate better once more is known.

 

[ash]

Alright, I’m committed to all the axle brackets. Just did final weld and got a few coats of paint on it!

 

[ash]

Spring rates sound too hard for flex and ride. I'm running 170lb/in fronts and 200-300lb/in progressive rears.

Cross axle with all your weight on opposite corners:
Call it 1800kg sprung, 450kg/corner (1000lb in round numbers).
250lb/in fronts will only compress 4"
350lb/in rears will only compress 3 inches.

Just guessing at weights I'd start with 200lb/in front and 250lb/in rears. Can calculate better once more is known.

We're definitely higher than 450kg/corner. On a 90 with a 2.8TGV, same front bumper and winch setup, rover axles and 35's I had 610kg per corner up front. It's all a big guessing game until I can get it on some scales, but the guys at Accutune are dialed with this stuff and this was their first stab based on the info provided. I'm even supposed to dial in 1.25" of preload, so we'll see how it sits.

 

[Dougal]

We're definitely higher than 450kg/corner. On a 90 with a 2.8TGV, same front bumper and winch setup, rover axles and 35's I had 610kg per corner up front. It's all a big guessing game until I can get it on some scales, but the guys at Accutune are dialed with this stuff and this was their first stab based on the info provided. I'm even supposed to dial in 1.25" of preload, so we'll see how it sits.

Subtract unsprung weight. Your axles and wheels will be at least 200kg unsprung each end.

I don't know who accutune are, but you're heading towards sports-car ride frequencies that won't flex out.
Here are some stock figures. The Brits knew more about suspension 30 years ago than most car companies do today.

2003 Defender 90 weights (stock).
Fronts 175lb/in with 373kg corner weight (sprung)
Rears 225lb/in with 322kg corner weight (sprung).
Payload approx 600kg.

2003 Defender 110 station wagon (stock).
Fronts 180lb/in with 404kg corner weight (sprung)
Rears 330lb/in with 363kg corner weight (sprung).
Payload approx 900kg

Stock defender spring-rates are based around handling fully loaded. So at max GVW the rear sprung frequency is still higher than the front and the vehicle doesn't become a wallowing mess. They're not chosen for off-road flex. You go softer for running low loads offroad or you'll never use your travel.

On my RRC I'm at 495kg front sprung corners with a 4BD1T, dual batteries and Isuzu truck gearbox. But no winch or winch-bar.
Front spring frequency 1.25Hz unloaded. Rear 1.36Hz.

 

[Dougal]

3 Links can cause that, but they are also the only common solid axle suspension that can be set up to not roll under throttle.

Lego technic model was inconclusive. Which backs my suspicions that it does pack/jack one side but it's a small enough effect it doesn't matter.

Made it so you could slide the top link from side-side or centre. Removed the shocks to try and see any effect from torquing the axle. Can't.

 

[72blazer]