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December's Bible Build: Linked Suspensions

Frequency matters in valve springs, not suspension. Tuning for a certain frequency in something that is completely random and variable is more of an academic exercise than something useful.

Pre-load is also a can of worms. The majority of TT's run tenders and mains with the tenders being fully compressed at ride height. This is technically less than zero pre-load as without the tender there would be slack in the spring. The tender also has no effect on the ride.


Rock crawlers need more compliance and will always have a lower rate thus more pre-load. Driving style also has a lot to do with it, what one driver feels comfortable with may make another nervous.

Don't want to get to into it much here, but suspension frequency is used to design cars. It is simply a measure of how fast the suspension system responds to an input.

If you are refering to a "zero rate" spring, most trophy trucks don't run those as far as I know. But the upper tender spring is often under similar load as the main spring, at least before the slider hits the stop.

Tuning for a preload is just a less math intensive way of getting to the right frequency. It is also a bit easier for the average wheeler to understand.

Driver does matter as does the use case. Dedicated trail or go fast rigs both benefit from being softer, but street rigs prefer to be heavier.

One thing I don't see discussed on the link geometry or accounted for in the calculator is the effect the angle of the links has on chassis lift under acceleration. Keeping those numbers down will keep the height of the instant center down also. This also has an effect on the squat numbers.

The angle and height of the links determines the instant center and therefore the squat values. The squat values characterize the effect of the links on chassis lift under acceleration. This is how the calculator works.
 
in flex with the driver wheel going up and the passenger side going down, the line connecting the driver upper axle mount to the driver lower axle mount will lay become more horizontal. Whereas the line connecting the passenger axle mount will become more vertical. When the links on each side are projected to the side view and the anti is calculated the driver side will have decreased while the passenger side has increased. Of note, it is possible that the values will be more extreme than any of the pure travel values. What I do not know or have immediate info on, is the effect of each side on the other.


The anti's on each side will work independently of each other. But, as with all things anti, there has to be a torque input for the anti's to act against.

Another scenario where the flex/anti change has an even larger effect is during cornering. Mainly because it happens at higher speed. The suspension is dumb. It doesn't know if the driver side wheel went over a bump, or the driver side of the vehicle came down due to lateral load transfer from going around a corner. All it knows is that that side compressed due to bump, and the geometry has changed. It's not until you get on the gas that you're now working with 50%AS on the driver side and 100%AS on the passenger side.

Side note: Straight Uppers and angled lowers that converge at the chassis was referred to as a Satchell link. Originally designed be Terry Satchell, a GM suspension engineer for road racing. That design actually increases AS on the outside tire during cornering.
 
One thing that is worth mentioning regarding antisquat is that the numbers people throw around, especially with older builds, is that they almost always have a bias of 1, since that was the bias built into the version of the 4 link calculator that was around at the time (3.0). This means that most of the time the numbers are greater than what they actually are. So when you see people say 100%, they more likely have 50% or so when in 4x4 on a level part of a trail. When they begin to climb, a portion of the weight shift to the back and takes the drive balance with it. This results in the bias going back towards 1 and the antisquat value increasing.

I posed a question to Mark Ortiz about 5 years ago and he used it in his Chassis Newsletter. I sent him a copy of the 4 link calc the we used to use here. He hit on the point you're making in the above quote.


My Letter:
I was wondering if you could shed some light on designing a 4-link suspension for the front of a 4 wheel drive vehicle? Vehicle in question is a new style 4 door Jeep JK. I'm designing a custom long arm 4-link front and rear.

The stock geometry is four longitudinal links and a Panhard bar. What I'm doing is a double triangulated with no Panhard bar. Uppers converging at the axle and the lowers converging at the crossmember for the trans. Steering will be full hydro w/double ended ram. No mechanical steering box or drag link (so no bump steer). Coilover shocks mounted outboard on the axles.

I will be running this set up front and rear (rear, minus the steering of course). It's actually a pretty standard design in the 4x4/rock crawling world.

As I said, I'm kind of at a loss as to how the front reacts to the forces.

I've attached the Excel 4link calculator with my design on it.

Main question has to do with anti-squat. On acceleration there is weight transfer off the front end, so would designed in A/S actually end up being pro-lift? I'm thinking it would only act as A/S during braking. I'm kind of at a loss as to how to look at things with regards to the front end.

There is a large offroad community that would be very interested in your thoughts on this.


Here's Mark Chassis Newsletter - July 2015

I am a relative newcomer to offroad chassis. I haven’t had clients in offroad motorsports. However, I have new neighbors here at the shop who do quite a bit of fabrication for offroad vehicles and also run offroad vehicles of their own. I find the whole field very interesting, but I should emphasize that I’m still in the steep part of my own learning curve and my thinking is still rapidly evolving.

I have at least gotten wise to this: there is a huge diversity of “offroad” vehicles and activities. If anything, there is considerably more variety than there is “on road”. And there isn’t any single set of desired properties for an offroad suspension system, any more than there is a single set of desired properties for all vehicles operating on pavement.

Returning to the original question, how do we understand longitudinal “anti” effects in a vehicle where all four wheels are driven, especially at the front, and what properties do we want in this regard? Taking the last part of this first, there is not a single answer for all applications. It depends on what we’re doing with the vehicle.

Usually, we do not speak of anti-squat when referring to the front wheels. Anti-squat means a tendency of the rear suspension to jack up under power, countering the tendency for the rear suspension to compress due to rearward load transfer. The corresponding property at the front is anti-lift: a tendency to jack down under power, countering the tendency for the suspension to extend. Under braking, we can have anti-lift at the rear. The corresponding upward jacking tendency in braking at the front is called anti-dive. All of these can be considered forms of anti-pitch.

Negative anti-lift is pro-lift; negative anti-dive is pro-dive – and so on.

100% anti-squat is the amount of anti-squat that will make the rear suspension neither extend nor compress in forward acceleration. That doesn’t mean the car won’t pitch. It just means it will pitch entirely by rising at the front; the rear won’t go down.

For front wheel drive, 100% anti-lift is the amount that will cause the front suspension to neither extend nor compress in forward acceleration. Again, the car will still pitch, but it will pitch entirely by squatting at the rear; the front won’t come up.

Likewise, in braking 100% anti-dive or anti-lift is the amount that will result in zero displacement at the end in question when braking.

Although linguistic evolution has given us four different terms for these effects, they are all fundamentally the same thing: jacking effects resulting from longitudinal ground plane forces.

In all cases, including also jacking resulting from lateral ground plane forces, jacking force equals ground plane force times jacking coefficient. Referring to the graphic in the main page of the attached spreadsheet from the questioner, the jacking coefficient corresponds to the slope of the force line, the green line lowermost in the frame. The slope of this line equates to the ratio between jacking force induced by the suspension linkage and the ground plane force applied to the system.

The slope of this line is also the inverse of the instantaneous slope of the path that the contact patch center follows as the suspension moves, when the wheel is locked in a manner appropriate to the situation being considered (i.e. braking or propulsion). In the case shown in the spreadsheet, the force line has about a 1 in 4 slope. This means that for every pound of longitudinal ground plane force, the suspension induces a jacking force of about a quarter of a pound. In this case, when the force is forward (propulsion), the jacking force is downward (anti-lift).

The spreadsheet is evidently designed with rear wheel drive in mind. The 100% anti-squat line shown is correct, assuming that the other wheel pair doesn’t contribute to propulsion. In that situation, 100% anti (in this case anti-lift) happens when the force line intercepts the opposite axle plane at sprung mass c.g. height (light blue horizontal line). In that situation, it is also impossible to get any jacking effect at the opposite axle at all, because there is no ground plane force there.

That of course is not the case with four wheel drive, except maybe if drive to the rear is disabled. When both front and rear wheels contribute longitudinal force, as in braking with most vehicles and with all wheels driven, we need a steeper force line slope to get 100% anti at a given axle. However, we can get jacking forces at both axles.

The procedure when solving graphically is to lay in what I call a resolution line at a location corresponding to the ground plane force distribution between the two axles, and compare the heights of the intercepts of the front and rear force lines and that resolution line to the height of the sprung mass c.g. If, for example, the front wheels make 60% of the ground plane force, the resolution line is 60% of the wheelbase from the front axle. If the front wheels make all the ground plane force, as in the spreadsheet, the resolution line is 100% of the wheelbase from the front axle, as shown.

If the vehicle has a center differential, we have a known ground plane force distribution, at least until some locking is imposed on the center differential. However, when we have a locked transfer case, we do not have a known torque distribution. We have a 1:1 driveshaft speed distribution, and a highly variable torque distribution and ground plane force distribution.

If the vehicle is running straight and there is similar traction at both ends, we will have close to 50/50 ground plane force distribution. However, if one end has more traction than the other, there will be more torque to that axle and more ground plane force from that wheel pair. When traction is good at both ends and the vehicle is turning, often the torques and ground plane forces are not only unequal but opposite in direction. The front wheels will follow a longer path and consequently need to turn faster than the rears, but be unable to. The rear wheels will then drive and the front wheels will drag. There will be reverse torque on the front drive shaft and extra torque on the rear drive shaft to counter that. The ground will exert rearward force on the front contact patches and forward force on the rear contact patches. In the questioner’s vehicle, the front will try to lift under these conditions. When it’s propelling the vehicle, its jacking forces will try to hold it down instead.

So there’s considerable uncertainty about what the induced jacking forces are going to be, because of the extreme variability of the ground plane force distribution. Do we at least know what we want the jacking forces to be?

Sort of, but that varies with what we’re doing with the vehicle. For an application such as offroad racing or Global Rallycross, we want the jacking forces to fight pitch, but not too much. If we get too greedy with our antis, we will get wheel hop on pavement or other high-traction surfaces.

For mud, things are different. There, we want both ends to jack up under power, vigorously. Why? Because when we’re stuck, sometimes the momentary tire load increase when we goose the throttle and the suspension pushes up against the frame will get us moving. It doesn’t always work, but in a useful percentage of cases it will.

And for crawling? I’m not sure it matters a whole lot, since the speeds and accelerations are so modest. I think probably the most important thing for a crawling suspension is to have huge travel, and a combination of stiffness in roll and softness in warp.
 
Another scenario where the flex/anti change has an even larger effect is during cornering. Mainly because it happens at higher speed. The suspension is dumb. It doesn't know if the driver side wheel went over a bump, or the driver side of the vehicle came down due to lateral load transfer from going around a corner. All it knows is that that side compressed due to bump, and the geometry has changed. It's not until you get on the gas that you're now working with 50%AS on the driver side and 100%AS on the passenger side.

If I followed that correctly, that would be mean that when back on the gas, the outside would compress even more, and would see a decrease in traction. Meanwhile the inside would raise more and would see an increase in traction. This would increase roll and if I am not mistaken, would have understeer tendencies.
 
I posed a question to Mark Ortiz about 5 years ago and he used it in his Chassis Newsletter. I sent him a copy of the 4 link calc the we used to use here. He hit on the point you're making in the above quote.


My Letter:



Here's Mark Chassis Newsletter - July 2015

Good read. The part regarding what happens in a turn with a locked t-case caught my attention the most. It makes sense, just hadn't thought about it before.

Figured its worth mentioning, for those trying to make some sense of it. Solid axles have a torque reaction in both drive and brake. Independent suspensions only react torque in brake, though exceptions exist.
 
If I followed that correctly, that would be mean that when back on the gas, the outside would compress even more, and would see a decrease in traction. Meanwhile the inside would raise more and would see an increase in traction. This would increase roll and if I am not mistaken, would have understeer tendencies.

Correct.
 
I had almost forgot this. I fired off another question to Mark Ortiz about chassis mounting the anti roll bar above or below vehicle CG.

Here was my email:

Hello Mark,

I have a question regarding the chassis mounting placement of the anti roll bar on an off road vehicle. Vehicle in question has 20" of wheel travel, 10" up, 10"
down from ride height front and rear..
The problem is snapping bars from the amount of twist they see, due to the wheel travel. I understand running longer arms (3 piece bar setup) will reduce the twisting motion they will experience, but it also reduces the effective rate of the bar. So, in order to have a bar that will not fail, we're stuck with running a very low rate.

My question to you, is, does raising the chassis mount of the bar above or below the vehicle CG have any difference on the forces the bar will be acting upon?

The vehicle in question is 4wd with solid axles front and rear.

Thank you for any light you may be able to shed on this subject,


And his reply:

Hello Kevin,

Short answer: no, it doesn’t matter what height you mount the bars, assuming that the operating links and arms only work the bars and don’t double as suspension links.

I can offer more insight on how to get more rate and still keep your stresses within proper limits, but first, can I use this for the newsletter?

Mark Ortiz


I replied that I would be more than happy for him to use it for the newsletter and that there was a very large offroad community that would enjoy reading it.

This was back in Aug, so only time will tell if it will happen. His newsletter is also an article in Racecar Engineering magazine which only produces issues every two months.
 
https://www.fourwheeler.com/how-to/techline-three-link-suspension/

link to a 4 wheeler article that is focused on a basics starting point and published just this month.

with everything being very technical and such, i figured it was just as good a reference as any.

letting the rest of this thread dig into the weeds of the stuff and the things, the basics for starting off that i got still hold true in general. basic trail rig stuff.

1) lower links long and as near flat as reasonable at ride height. i.e. 42" is pretty long, 30" isn't. to get flat, it is fine to drop the frame side a bit or raise the axle side a bit depending on how much "lift" you need and where you want it. starting from flat helps the arm get over bumps and ruts as it will travel near vertical and slightly back reacting up or down.

2) lower links as wide on the axle side as possible. helps with control and stability, yes shock placement is very important for stability, but wide axle mounts give better options for adding in side to side angle, which gives better control

3) upper links as wide on the frame side as possible. unless you are running a 3 link+panhard, then obviously the 90* panhard does the Left to right axle locating.

4) upper links as narrow on the axle side as possible. which again leads to some issues if you have an engine or whatever in the way. a good strong triangle upper links will locate the axle and "be fine" even if the lowers are parallel.

5) between all 4 links/control arms. i've heard 30* is the minimum, i've heard 45* is the minimum. i'm very curious what people have run that has worked or failed or otherwise.

for some reason i don't remember where i wrote down the numbers i had, but my front 4 link had ~28* or so total and when i picked up the back end of the car, it twisted and ripped the brackets off. granted, they were only just tacked in place, but the rear survived and the front failed. I was able to add another ~10* total by widening my uppers and the whole car feels more stiff. There seems to be no hard and fast rule here, but more is better.
 
5) between all 4 links/control arms. i've heard 30* is the minimum, i've heard 45* is the minimum. i'm very curious what people have run that has worked or failed or otherwise.

The most common number I've seen is 40* minimum. Running a bit more than that would likely be a good idea.
 
The most common number I've seen is 40* minimum. Running a bit more than that would likely be a good idea.

sounds in there, more is certainly better as there is a great deal of force (check out pan hard failures with brackets and frames tearing) for side to side control. I sacrificed upper arm length to get more combined angle and due to packaging constraints will need to go to wider axles if i want to get more. the relatively minor changes in caster gain that are easy to calculate will hopefully be offset by the overall strength gains that are difficult to calculate.

and yes, combined angle
 
The v5,1 calculator states Link separation angle. Is this the combined angle?

It is the combined convergence angle.

I am changing the wording to match what it is here in the 5.3 version, which only has a few things to go before it comes out.
 
1) lower links long and as near flat as reasonable at ride height. i.e. 42" is pretty long, 30" isn't.
.

Actual link length or longitudinal axle-frame distance?

Disregarding ideal and calculated numbers, as we're mostly limited to what fits; On a short wheelbase buggy - what would be good link length numbers?

I'm looking at going with slightly shorter links up front - for packaging reasons. Thoughts on that?
 
Actual link length or longitudinal axle-frame distance?

Disregarding ideal and calculated numbers, as we're mostly limited to what fits; On a short wheelbase buggy - what would be good link length numbers?

I'm looking at going with slightly shorter links up front - for packaging reasons. Thoughts on that?

obviously when the link length gets too long, it get's too easy to bend/deform and then weight gets added to make up for it. that is the only real limit on length.

as for "how short is too short" depends more on travel at the wheel than wheelbase. the shorter it is, the more it will move fore/aft through the travel, the more fore/aft movement, the more it will twist the axle housing and generate 'flex steer'

flat at ride height means it will only move backward, long means the arc radii is great and the movement is less.

If you are running a 6" shock and a 18" control arm on a street car, it will be less noticeable than a 12" shock. this is where the subframe comes in to play and smooth is better than flat for a belly, if you can drop the lower brackets into clean air, you can get a longer arm and get the wheel travel closer to vertical through the given shock length.
 
Actual link length or longitudinal axle-frame distance?

Disregarding ideal and calculated numbers, as we're mostly limited to what fits; On a short wheelbase buggy - what would be good link length numbers?

I'm looking at going with slightly shorter links up front - for packaging reasons. Thoughts on that?

That value is likely total length.

In addition to depending on travel, it depends on the travel balance. The farther from 50/50, the longer the links need to be.

That said I would try to stay between 30 and 40 in the side view. The longer they are, the less things change in travel. If clearance is a major issue, look into a 3 link with panhard. Pulling the angle out of the links frees up a lot of room.
 
Thanks guys.
I was looking at this German built rig based on a Mini body.
Front appears to have an inverted 4-link with really short arms. What are your thoughts on it? Pros/cons on inverting the links?
mini.JPG
 
those link arms are short because they need to be in order to get enough angle to locate the axle, which is a very valid cause

the "traditional" setup would be to put less angle into the lowers and then you've be able to get more length out of them, and put that lost angle into the uppers to keep the axle control. If you don't have the space to angle the uppers, as his are mounted outside the frame rail, maybe for a class frame rule?, then it obviously works out. you would need to pay more attention to the length difference between the upper and lowers, shorter lowers will give you more front/back motion and you don't want to needless compound that with housing wrap/pinion angle change through the cycle.

personally, and i'm not a racer or competitor by any means, shorter arms aren't the end of the world. Longer arms ride smoother and react less, but that setup right there will outperform leaf springs for general axle control and approach angle.
 
Its well known that the pinion and steering knuckles rotate throughout travel. Might as well look at how to control that. For this post all talk of lengths and such is solely in the side view, the top and end views do not matter. This is going to be aimed at triangulated 4 links and wishbone setups, but applies to the other types for the most part.

It turns out that the overall lengths do not affect rotation direction, only the relative lengths and mounting positions between the upper and lower links do. The basic concept is to look at the circles that the axle ends of the links follow and how they inward and outward along the circles.

This allows us to do a few things. For example, we can keep constant caster in the front, though this conflicts with keeping the pinion pointed at the transfer case. The balance between these two conflicting goals will depend on you use case.

The closer to a parallelogram the link mounting points are in a side view, the less change. A perfect parallelogram will have no change relative to the body throughout travel.

So I mentioned how to keep the angle from changing, but what about making it rotate? Generally speaking the longer link determines the behavior. For example, a longer lower link, the normal recommendation, will tend to cause the pinion to rotate down in down travel. This is because as the axle moves down, the shorter upper moves inward quicker. With a longer upper, the pinion will tend to rotate up in down travel.

However, the behavior is flipped for up travel. Longer lowers rotates will rotate the pinion down. Longer uppers will rotate the pinion up in up travel.

So that leads to the next way to control it: where on the circle you start. Easy way to think of this is with 2 equal length links that are a mirror each other. But they instead of projecting a parallelogram, they project a trapezoid. When the axle starts moving up or down, one is already on the inward portion of its movement, while the other is moving outward.
Pinion angle.PNG

A combination of the relative length and making a trapezoid provides control over the direction of rotation. But what about controlling how much it rotates?

Well that's the easy part. Generally, longer, flatter links mean less rotation for a given travel. This is because for a given change in height, the axle ends moves fore and aft less.
 
Taking a bit of a break from geometry for a moment, lets look at the orientation of the bolts at the ends of the links. The two general types are a horizontal bolt, and a vertical bolt.

The orientation depends on where it is used. So lets look at it in that way.

Frame side ends: Both orientations have been done successfully, but the horizontal bolts are the most common, simply because they are easier to package. Vertical bolts are more common on upper links since it is there does not tend to be a sturdy cross member to mount to. It is recommended that they are mounted horizontally. As the links travel the force vector from them will point relatively perpendicular to the bolt. This results in the forces being mostly in plane with the mounting tabs. For the same reason, it is also recommend the bolt be angled in the horizontal plane to be perpendicular to the link, though this is not as easy to do most of the time. Placing the bolt horizontally also helps with avoiding the angle limits of whatever rod end you choose to go with.

Lower axle links: As far as I can tell, no one uses a vertical bolt for this mount on an offroad vehicle. It is much harder to package and is significantly weaker. The only use case I can see for a vertical bolt is on a car designed for pavement as it does not have much travel and the horizontal tabs are better able to take side to side forces.

Upper axle links: This is the one of the places that vertical bolts are somewhat common. However, the use of a vertical bolt is restricted solely to designs using a truss. Because the axle rotates with the link some, the forces and deflection changes are less drastic than at the frame.

Panhard ends: Use a horizontal bolt. You can use a vertical one; I don't know why you would want to, but you can. Seriously, just put the bolt horizontal.

Wishbone Axle End: This is the other place vertical bolts are common, possibly more common than horizontal. This is mostly for packaging and ease of building.

Radius Arms: Horizontal bolts are recommended at all bolt locations. It will be easier to build as well as be easier on the tabs.



And regarding putting the bolt parallel to the link. Why?
 
concerning angle of the bolts vs angle of the link, i did a bit of math and looking at lot's of examples of the various options before settling on mounting my bolts perpendicular to the tabs, perp to the body, and letting the joint take up the angle of the link at the frame side. i think my rear upper brackets are angled, but that is it. everywhere else, there is plenty of mis-alignment in the joint to take up the movement and the added complexity from mounting the bolts perpendicular to the link arms was just not justifiable in any way.

more extreme angles and more extreme travel? sure, but unless things are going to bind, it isn't worth considering.
 
concerning angle of the bolts vs angle of the link, i did a bit of math and looking at lot's of examples of the various options before settling on mounting my bolts perpendicular to the tabs, perp to the body, and letting the joint take up the angle of the link at the frame side. i think my rear upper brackets are angled, but that is it. everywhere else, there is plenty of mis-alignment in the joint to take up the movement and the added complexity from mounting the bolts perpendicular to the link arms was just not justifiable in any way.

more extreme angles and more extreme travel? sure, but unless things are going to bind, it isn't worth considering.

I agree about it not being worth it or needing to consider it in most cases. But best practices are best practices, so figured it was worth mentioning.
 
One think that hasn't been mentioned is the sizing of parts. Easiest way to quantify this for all different sizes (weights) of rigs is to look at the factors of safety(FS). Best way to do this, in my opnion is with the acceleration at 1g. There is unsurprisingly not much out there on what values people target here. Many may think that a FS of 3-5 is enough because "Hety, if it works in industry its good enough for us, right"?. This is not the case for an offroad car. By nature, offroad is full of impacts: links coming down on a ledge, dropping down a ledge, bashing over a ledge. Lot of ledges. 1g of forces at static does not mean 1g during an impact.

There are 5 things to worry about with a link:
Yielding: Link stretching or compressing
Buckling: Link collapsing under load
Bending: Link bending with the vehicle resting on it. Not a big deal on the upper links
Denting: Link wall denting from an impact. Not a big deal on the upper links
Rod End: Rod end failing
I know, I know, using the term to describe the term. There's a limit to what can be done without using certain terms.

Any bending or denting of a link lowers the strength of the link.

The only information I have found on target values for FS in regards to a 4x4 is from AZRockCrawler.com. His recommendation is: FS above 15 for the yield, 6 for buckling, 2 for bending and 6 for the rod end.

Personally, I would recommend a higher FS for bending, especially if your driving style involves a lot of bashing up climbs.

The predominate factor for the strength of each of the 5 things is:
Yielding: Wall Thickness (cross sectional area)
Buckling: Outside diameter (moment of inertia)
Bending: Outside diameter (moment of inertia)
Denting: Wall thickness
Rod End: Size​

This is one of the few places where being way over built is not a bad idea. In almost all cases, heavier lower links will lower your center of gravity.
 
And for today's topic, we have wheel hop.

The root cause of wheel hop is cyclic loading and unloading of the suspension. It starts by having some traction, the suspension reacts to the traction. This causes a change in the load on the tires. This load changes traction causing a change in the suspension reaction. And thus a cycle is born.

This is mitigated a few ways, shocks dampen it, and being gentle on the throttle allows it to reach a state where the traction and the reaction line up.

A suspension with over 100% antisquat is more prone to hoping. This is because the increase in traction caused by the acceleration further increases the lift of the vehicle. At some point the maximum traction that the surface can take changes and the force holding up the rear goes away. The now unsupported rear drops and loads the tires restoring traction. This traction once again causes the rear to lift and the cycle begins.

As far as below 100% antisquat and wheel hop, I can't find any great explanations as to why it doesn't hop so bad. That said, here is the best explanation I can come up with. As the suspension squats, it looses traction, reducing the squat. Because of this self countering action, the motion is self damping to the point that standard shock absorbers are able to keep it from oscillating.

This leads to the theory that a stiff enough shock should be able to get rid of hop with an antisquat value over 100%, but such a shock would not be a viable option to run do to the extremely poor ride it would have.
 
probably no truth to this, but reading your post above makes me think a thing.

A/S over 100% is the suspension putting extra force into the Tire Contact Patch, when we've already got a loss of traction, that added force from the suspension and springs unloading (lifting the chassis) only means more loss of traction as the tire has already overcome friction at the TCP, meaning more hop as it fights to right itself

A/S under 100% is the suspension absorbing some extra force and reducing the load at the TCP. in a way, this softens the force as the suspension and springs take that energy and make it easier for the tire to get less force at the TCP and makes it easier for the tire to catch back to traction.

i dunno, just a thought.
 
probably no truth to this, but reading your post above makes me think a thing.

A/S over 100% is the suspension putting extra force into the Tire Contact Patch, when we've already got a loss of traction, that added force from the suspension and springs unloading (lifting the chassis) only means more loss of traction as the tire has already overcome friction at the TCP, meaning more hop as it fights to right itself

A/S under 100% is the suspension absorbing some extra force and reducing the load at the TCP. in a way, this softens the force as the suspension and springs take that energy and make it easier for the tire to get less force at the TCP and makes it easier for the tire to catch back to traction.

i dunno, just a thought.

The added force is from the suspension loading, even as the springs unload. The added force also increases traction even when the tire is spinning. That whole F[SUB]friction[/SUB]=F[SUB]normal[/SUB]*C[SUB]friction[/SUB] thing.

As for the below 100%, you had me until you said that the reduction in force makes it easier to catch back traction. The opposite should be true, that the reduction in force reduces the traction.

As I was typing out a response, the following occurred to me:

The traction loss occurs once the acceleration stops which visually is when the chassis stops moving upward. As soon as the traction loss occurs, the loading of the suspension and the drivetrain is released. This is seen as the chassis dropping and the wheel surging. The sudden wheel surge has greately reduce the traction, static versus sliding friction, causing even more unloading of the suspension.

This might help explain why low AS doesn't have as much of an issue. The increased traction is not present. The wheel doesn't have the ability to surge; it can't grip enough to do it.
 
The added force is from the suspension loading, even as the springs unload. The added force also increases traction even when the tire is spinning. That whole F[SUB]friction[/SUB]=F[SUB]normal[/SUB]*C[SUB]friction[/SUB] thing.

As for the below 100%, you had me until you said that the reduction in force makes it easier to catch back traction. The opposite should be true, that the reduction in force reduces the traction.

As I was typing out a response, the following occurred to me:

The traction loss occurs once the acceleration stops which visually is when the chassis stops moving upward. As soon as the traction loss occurs, the loading of the suspension and the drivetrain is released. This is seen as the chassis dropping and the wheel surging. The sudden wheel surge has greately reduce the traction, static versus sliding friction, causing even more unloading of the suspension.

This might help explain why low AS doesn't have as much of an issue. The increased traction is not present. The wheel doesn't have the ability to surge; it can't grip enough to do it.

it would stand to reason that traction would increase with an increase in force from suspension loading (and springs unloading) except for how tires work once traction is lost. maximum tire grip is at a little bit of tire slip, loss of traction is a whole heep of tire slip so then we need to reduce forces until the tire is no longer slipping and regrab. which is difficult to do once it starts hopping uncontrollably.

lower A/S means we aren't using the chassis and suspension to "artificially" force the tire beyond that gentle slip and are reducing it, by having the springs take some of the force instead.

i think your second part is us being on the same page but with slightly different words.
 
So, how about a look at antis throughout travel. So in theory, we want to increase the anti values as the suspension travels up. This results in a suspension that gets stiffer as it compresses. Messing around with the numbers some, it seems that as the upper link gets shorter than the lower link, the antis become more unchanging during travel. It seems that the antis finally start increasing in up travel as the upper links get around 70% of the length of the lowers. This may be where the recommendation of the uppers being 75% of the lowers come from.
 
I built my last rear 4 link by the 75% rule.
For the current crawler build I'm concidering setting the frame mounts at the same distance from the axle.
This would actually make the uppers slightly longer than the lowers, physically.

Short wheelbase, low speed rig where I don't want much pinion droop when the rear unloads

Bad idea?
 
I built my last rear 4 link by the 75% rule.
For the current crawler build I'm concidering setting the frame mounts at the same distance from the axle.
This would actually make the uppers slightly longer than the lowers, physically.

Short wheelbase, low speed rig where I don't want much pinion droop when the rear unloads

Bad idea?

Mind throwing this here? https://irate4x4.com/general-4x4/240230-how-s-my-numbers

But to answer your question, not inherently. For controlling the angle, the side view 2D projected length is what matters. You are gonna have to run the numbers. It is possible to have good anti travel and angle behavior. Also, even on short wheelbases, long links can still be ran.
 
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