DE ram with steering box AKA 4500 class steering migration

[JR4X]

Going to try to resurrect some tech as it’s relevance has come up again. Lots has changed since I started doing this 7 years ago. I’ve stopped trying to help people build boxes through text and email. My brother and I can build boxes all day and not have problems. Most everyone I’ve tried to talk through the process don’t get one thing or another right and their system doesn’t. I’ve been building boxes for other people instead and we’ve got quite a few competitors running our stuff successfully now. I’m editing this heavily as I go as some old part numbers are irrelevant, previous arguments are irrelevant, people involved have changed their minds etc. Bear with me as I go because this could take a while.




The class we race in requires a mechanical connection between the steering wheel and the wheels, no full hydro. Our very first desert race ever was the 2012 KOH Every Man Challenge. While in 3rd place in that race the Scrambler broke its first of about 15 steering boxes with hydro assist that lead me to the end of the earth and back on all things steering. I have been working on a solution to regular hydro assist for about 4 years. We were at the Ultra4 Reno National Finals last year and broke another box on the front row in our prelim destroying our chance at a podium. Later a friend of ours Clay Gilstrap ran one of the fastest qualifying laps in 4400. Where he hit a rock so hard as to explode a tire, the tire balls, and a forged Method wheel. Without damaging any of the rest of the car. His is a Tribe4x4 built IFS rig with a Howe trophy truck rack. It occurred to me that the IFS rack is literally just a different configuration of ram assist. I began by reading the whole go-fast steering thread and anything ram assist related I can find. After talking to all the big steering manufacturers I decided to abandon traditional ram assist for our race car. There are people racing and doing well racing with regular old ram assist but for us it had to go. I wanted to figure out how to get the power of full hydro while staying class legal with a real mechanical connection. The willy’s race truck had been built around the steering in the first place so we kept our box and just modified it.









A power steering box is a small ram assisted rack & Pinion unit all by itself. The rack doubles as a ram shaft as well, the pinion being the sector shaft, the box having its own steering servo on the input side of the box. There is a tiny little port that runs the length of the bottom of the box from the front of the piston to the servo. For the piston to move forward all the fluid in that cavity has to return to the servo through about an 1/8th inch hole several inches long. This hole cannot be adequately opened up where other ports in the box can be. In an event where the vehicle plows into an immovable object at speed the wheels trying to move the internals of the of the box faster than fluid can evacuate the small port leads to a momentary hydrolock event and leads to the sector shaft twisting off, or breaking the teeth off the sector shaft.




















These 3 part numbers are all the right size for perfectly smooth 2 1/2 turn lock to lock steering. I use PSC for the pump but Howe sells an equivalent one, we have ran both. But the modified PSC pump in this application is $200 plus the pulley and works fantastic. With this pump and servo the Howe ram requires more fluid displacement while creating the same pounds of steering force on the steering knuckles. Howe's 2 1/2 inch rams have smaller shafts which means more fluid displacement. This is the servo that Howe uses on the trophy truck rack. A friend of ours bought a stock servo straight from sweet to run in conjunction with a cable setup similar to the poison spider 4500 rig from the first EMC, and it doesn't work right. So even though its 200 more dollars from Howe than from sweet it really does matter. This is what we won the national points championship with and I insist it’s amazing. You will have to figure out the pulley size you need for yourself. We run a ford engine and our crank pulley is about half the diameter of an LS crank pulley.




Pump part number SKU #: PSC-SP1200X-8-12

TC series Extreme Duty PS Pump-SP1200X : Pump Systems and Components, Universal Pumps | PSC Motorsports - performance steering components




Ram part number SKU #: SCX2212K1

XR Series 2.5" Double Ended Race Cylinder | PSCMotorsports.com performance steering components, power steering




Servo part number P# - 725 with a 200# torsion spring

Control Valves | Parts Categories | Howe

 

[JR4X]

Next up is pumps. IMO The P in P pump is for POS! A lot of guys already have p-pumps and don't want to change them. There are a lot of reasons you shouldn't waste your time with one. Less PSI and less GPM first. Second is the shaft bushing. A p-pump doesn't have roller bearings for the input shaft where better pumps (any pump is better) have roller bearing inputs. The p-pump just has a bronze bushing so the belt tension wears the shaft into the same spot on the bushing all the time.





This is where I most diverge in agreement with both PSC and Howe. Call them up and talk pumps, they will be both try to sell you some crazy high volume trophy truck pump as high as 9.5 gpm. I insist that its not only not necessary but actually nets a negative in our steering systems to have more volume than you can use.




So our new set up runs a 4.5 gpm pump at 1650 psi, which is the exact same gpm and psi rating as the high flow control valve from Howe. At the dirtriot national finals we ran for 1 hour on the roughest course other than KOH that we ran all year. Through tight trees and nasty rocks. At the end of that brutal race our fluid temperature was 90 degrees. No matter how hard of a demand we place on the rig you can shut the car off and hold onto any part of the steering system with your bare hand. No matter how fast you turn the wheel with your hand the steering never doesn't keep up with you. The ram can move the wheels faster than you can outrun the hydro system with the mechanical side.




I know people running full hydro systems with trophy truck pumps that the steering system gets so hot that you could weld with it. The higher PSI and higher GPM the pump is the more engine power it takes to run it. Where is that fluid going? If a normal orbital valve can only use 5.5 gpm the pump is bypassing internally the remainder of its produced fluid volume. That fluid doesn't get to run through the cooler before returning to the reservoir. Any time pressure is made heat is also made. So if your pump is making more fluid than you can use, that hot fluid re-enters the pump and is immediately re-compressed and more heat made. It can recycle hot fluid to the point that the pump gets so hot the bypass spring loses its spring rate. Bypass goes full open, now recycling only hot fluid and the steering fades if not goes away completely.

​

 

[JR4X]

HYDRODYNAMIC




[QUOTE="HydroDynamic]

Cool to see so many people going this route. And all it took was one person to try something different.

[/QUOTE]

Can’t run this topic without a shoutout to Jeff! 7 years of success with this system and couldn’t have done it without your help.

 

[JR4X]

The steering box itself is the next and last piece of the puzzle. PSC will be selling complete setups that using a small circle track manual gear box. I just talked to him about it last month. Here is the link to their coming system, blank at the moment but once they are comfortable with their systems I'm sure the details will be filled in.





PSC 4500 conversion kit???

4500 Class Manaul Steering Gear Conversion Kit - Full Hydraulic Steering Components - Offroad Catalog - Motorsport Specific Products




As mentioned earlier this whole race truck was literally designed from the steering out trying to eliminate the broken steering gears that we had in previous years in the race scrambler. http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/gener...-race-rig.html. After all that it still didn't work, it was better but we could still break boxes. We used a Saginaw box from an International scout II for a few reasons. 1st it mounts outside the frame giving us a longer panhard and drag link bars. 2nd because the pitman arm points forward giving us better packaging all around, including a better approach angle. 3rd because its a Saginaw box, all the parts for a common ram assist box from PSC, Howe, AGR, Lee etc would work in it and be available to us. EDIT: turns out I may be full of shit on the sector shaft upgrade. PSC says there is no such thing as a 4130 chromo sector shaft, that we are just running a JK sector shaft.Here is a series of pictures of a box we broke at the U4 stampede last year where all of the internals from the box were pushed out the front of the case. It egg shaped the inside bore of the case as well as ripped the casting off the front of the case. Breaking the casting on the internal parts as well. Another time we were in first..."until"












So for our new setup we reused our same box and design. We however disabled it from being a power steering box all together. The fluid inlet and outlet ports are capped. It is now completely mechanical only and cannot be used as a power box. This part will take a lot of explaining, as well as a lot of comprehension on your part.




Lets begin. A standard Saginaw power steering box comes in most commonly 4 turn and 3 turn configurations. It is the barrel valve and servo screw that determine this. All other parts of the boxes are the same and completely parts interchangeable. PSC turned 4 turn boxes into 3 turn boxes for us. Below is two you have to chose from. The top screw is the 3 turn, the bottom is the 4 turn. After making our 3 turn box into a manual gear box, a custom length longer pitman arm was the only thing further needed to get it to be a 2 1/2 turn system. Since our pitman arm points forward it is easy to make the pitman arm whatever length we want. This same thing can be done to a CJ/TJ/XJ box but getting the pitman arm length is difficult.









.

 

[JR4X]

To fix the torsion bar inside the box you need to pull the input shaft out of the box.










Then you need to take the input itself out to this point. Make the top two pieces into one piece like below and weld them together. Weld it good and grind any excess down so that it goes back into the assembly correctly. If you don't do this step you will have a small amount of extra induced steering slop from this part of the box.















Getting back on track. Here is the piston from inside the box. If you are making a manual box out of your power box you want this piston to be floating in oil but no longer be a piston. If you don't modify this, when you steer back and forth the fluid will have to go back and forth through the little ports which is going to give extra unwanted resistance to the steering. If not cause it to break.









Take the piston out and remove all the O-rings from it. Kevin our master fabricator cut 6 1/8th inch deep by 1/8th wide grooves the length of this piston. So that when the box is full of oil. The piston can move freely forward and backward, the oil will displace through the machined grooves in this piston causing no extra resistance. All the ports are opened but the piston needs to be able to free float. We have NO hoses to our box. The fluid inlet and outlet ports are capped.




For CJ/YJ/TJ/XJ guys this box is a manual gear box that is a direct bolt in. It will replace a power steering box. Only down side is its a 4 turn box that there are no other ratios available for. This would be perfect for the street driven rigs aiming for this type of setup. Not so much for a race car IMO. The nice thing about these are they much more compact and much lighter than a power box.




1965-1991 GM 525 Manual Steering Box w/ 3/4-30 Input Spline - Free Shipping @ Speedway Motors



​

 

[JR4X]

A few final notes and pictures. Here is the modified "high flow control valve" made be sweet modified by Howe, in my own hand. -10 return line -8 pressure ports.











If you let go of the steering wheel, when you hit an obstacle the wheels can freely be turned lock to lock. It requires the differential pressure at the torsion bar from the wheels to the steering wheel to activate the hydro side. As long as you hold onto the steering wheel, it cannot be ripped out of your hands. If you plow into something you will feel a very slight twitch to the steering wheel that will immediately go away when the hydro takes the impact. As long as you don't turn to the steering wheel the hydro will keep the wheels pointed where you want them, there is no creep.




The TC pump we are running, I cant find the exact max RPM for it but I want to say its 8000 rpm. We run it 1:1 with a custom made PS pump pulley so that with a 7000 rpm redline we don't over rev the pump. Even at idle the steering is very quick and easy to turn.




So that's it. The whole deal. Both Howe and PSC are going to be marketing a 4500 class specific steering system this year, and Poison Spyder sells theirs. If you want to know the costs of a complete kit from any of those 3 get ahold of them or you can PM me. The reason I decided to give away our tech is because it was generously given to me by HydroDynamic and a few others.




Let the questions begin.

 

[JR4X]

 

[Lil'John]

PSC 4500 conversion kit???

4500 Class Manaul Steering Gear Conversion Kit - Full Hydraulic Steering Components - Offroad Catalog - Motorsport Specific Products

Link appears to be dead I was following this over on the other board.

From my quick scan, the primary mod to the steering box is internals only. Nothing to the actual housing... correct?

 

[JR4X]

Link appears to be dead I was following this over on the other board.

From my quick scan, the primary mod to the steering box is internals only. Nothing to the actual housing... correct?

Perma dead link. PSC couldn’t make it work so they stopped selling it. They were trying to sell the kits with a manual steering box that didn’t have the correct gear ratio. I still can’t find a manual steering gear that has a fast enough gear ratio for this.

And yes, if running an external servo the case doesn’t get touched. Only the internal parts.

 

[Yotota]

YES!

Thanks for getting this started here. I still have the idea rolling around in my head to try piecing together a slightly scaled-down version of this system in both size and cost. More or less a "budget/redneck style 4500 steering" for trail rigs. I have no idea how well it could work... You had answered my dumb questions on the old forum about this, but I would still love to find a way to get this style system to work as a retrofit with an existing Toyota steering box.

Like you have mentioned before though, it would be tough to piece together a balanced system for any cheaper or simpler than you have already done.

Maybe I'll poke at it in the future after checking off the bulk of my remaining build list.

 

[JR4X]

YES!

Thanks for getting this started here. I still have the idea rolling around in my head to try piecing together a slightly scaled-down version of this system in both size and cost. More or less a "budget/redneck style 4500 steering" for trail rigs. I have no idea how well it could work... You had answered my dumb questions on the old forum about this, but I would still love to find a way to get this style system to work as a retrofit with an existing Toyota steering box.

Like you have mentioned before though, it would be tough to piece together a balanced system for any cheaper or simpler than you have already done.

Maybe I'll poke at it in the future after checking off the bulk of my remaining build list.

There has to be a way to scale it down. I’ve still not been able to make time to tear into a Toyota box myself.

 

[KrisKYK]

I take it pricing will be on par with their existing full hydro kits?

So basically this provides for a full hydro that is much more friendly at speed and on the street?

How's the streering experience and feedback compared to full hydro at speed/ on the street?

 

[AgitatedPancake]

Oh man it's awesome to see this thread over here, and thank you for all of the tech. There's no denying that this was one of the driving factors in me doing my own variation on my WJ. I haven't taken it to the extreme yet, so I'm excited to have all of this refreshed.

Kris, at the very basic level, this configuration starts as your standard hydro assist, but uses a double ended ram as the assist instead of a single ended ram attached to your tie rod. So your steering box controls them the same way. This is how I have mine currently plumbed. Steering feel is great, though admittedly mine is a little slow at the moment just due to the sheer volume of fluid required with the large ram I chose. With a smaller ram, the speed would be very similar to your standard hydro assist rams. When you reach the limits of how much flow the servo integrated into the steering box can flow, you look at the remote mounted servo options such as the Sweet valve he noted above. This has the same function as the factory valving in your steering box, but can flow a much higher volume with less restriction, which is great for racing etc. Another thing that can be done, is bypassing the steering box entirely and sending all of the flow to the ram. You loose a little potential force because you're no longer getting help from the box, but you need *much* less volume, so your steering gets faster. As far as my own street/trail setup is concerned, de-powering the steering box is probably my next step to speed things up.

Here's a reference from the CBR steering pump thread we have going over here also, just on some basic math I did using my WJ steering box and a 2.5" x 8" double ended ram with a 1.5" shaft:

That's the question. The ram alone with the box de powered would give me about 45% more power than the stock steering box assuming pressure is a constant. Then I'm only running 1,100 PSI, so if I'm comfortable bumping it up towards 1400 I can get another ~27% more power on top of that. Is that enough for 42"s under a 5200-5500lb rig? Probably haha

 

[KrisKYK]

Yea completely get the tech and how it works but very curious to see how this actually translates to the application of it in different driving conditions and scenarios

 

[Yotota]

There has to be a way to scale it down. I’ve still not been able to make time to tear into a Toyota box myself.

I'm also curious about the strength and durability that is realistically needed on a trail rig

Looking at the individual components...

The cylinder could be scaled down to something like a $225 2" x 8" x 1.25" Surplus Center DE ram, limited to whatever travel is needed.

The pump really isn't going to get cheaper than the $200 PSC. Well except for a pressure and flow modded Toyota pump, but those may or may not last very long.

The valve is where I'm stuck with few options. It looks like Howe and Sweet are the only options. I need to dig around in the industrial parts catalogs, maybe there's something else on the market that's more generic and cheaper.

 

[AgitatedPancake]

Yea completely get the tech and how it works but very curious to see how this actually translates to the application of it in different driving conditions and scenarios

For sure. I just got a problem cured with my TC pump that was limiting me a bit, but so far the driveability is fantastic even on 42"s. Very stable and comfortable. I was pumping way too much volume at high RPMs so my steering was overly sensitive at freeway speeds, but I've dialed that back with a smaller orofice in the flow control valve of the pump, and has removed any of that discomfort. I plan to put some decent mileage on it in coming months, so I'll report back as I get more seat time

 

[KrisKYK]

Nvm

 

[JR4X]

Yea completely get the tech and how it works but very curious to see how this actually translates to the application of it in different driving conditions and scenarios

There’s to many variables to make a blanket answer to that. The biggest one being the gear ratio of the box. You gotta have a plan from the get go and match the sizes of everything correctly. So say you want a fully streetable rig that steers like a normal truck on the road. A 16:1 ratio steering gear will feel like a normal ram assist will, because it only makes as much steering force as is required to steer.

If you run an 8:1 gear box it’s going to be sensitive to your input. Probably not the kind of system you can just let anyone jump in and drive. most people struggle to re-learn the steering feel with something that steer so quickly with such little input from your part.

I built a setup for a friend of mine last season. It’s 1 turn lock to lock, so 1/2 a turn each way from center with a regular ol Jeep Saginaw steering box. The steering isn’t twitchy, he’s twitchy. It’s pretty easy to oversteer something that quick ratio’d. He ran it all last year with 4 turn lock to lock. We’ll see if he can get used to it this coming year.

 

[AgitatedPancake]

As far as external servos go, I'm very curious about the setup in the woodward catalog. Besides your standard porting in stuff like Saginaw boxes and sweet servos, this one is just flat out huge in comparison. It's got to be able to flow some serious numbers with minimal restriciton, but i haven't heard much discussion about it

http://www.woodwardsteering.com/PDF/10. Power Steering System Components.pdf

 

[KrisKYK]

There’s to many variables to make a blanket answer to that. The biggest one being the gear ratio of the box. You gotta have a plan from the get go and match the sizes of everything correctly. So say you want a fully streetable rig that steers like a normal truck on the road. A 16:1 ratio steering gear will feel like a normal ram assist will, because it only makes as much steering force as is required to steer.

If you run an 8:1 gear box it’s going to be sensitive to your input. Probably not the kind of system you can just let anyone jump in and drive. most people struggle to re-learn the steering feel with something that steer so quickly with such little input from your part.

I built a setup for a friend of mine last season. It’s 1 turn lock to lock, so 1/2 a turn each way from center with a regular ol Jeep Saginaw steering box. The steering isn’t twitchy, he’s twitchy. It’s pretty easy to oversteer something that quick ratio’d. He ran it all last year with 4 turn lock to lock. We’ll see if he can get used to it this coming year.

I hear you on the effects of the steering ratio changes/diffs....all things equal e.g. 4 turns lock to lock...

I'm trying to figure out where to position this in the order of:

1) Stock steering
2) Single Ended Hydro assist
3) Low Volume Double End Hydro Assist with small cylinder and large shaft
4) This Mechanical Servo Steering
5) Full Hydro



Meaning does this solution provide all of the benefits of hydro assist and full hydro or is it compromise between the 2? Excluding considerations for the the required drag link and the implications of that....

I guess more specifically since we are moving the servo out of the steering box and into a stand alone high flow servo, does that change the steering input, feedback compared to hydro assists or is simply the same and just more flow/powerful?

 

[KrisKYK]

For sure. I just got a problem cured with my TC pump that was limiting me a bit, but so far the driveability is fantastic even on 42"s. Very stable and comfortable. I was pumping way too much volume at high RPMs so my steering was overly sensitive at freeway speeds, but I've dialed that back with a smaller orofice in the flow control valve of the pump, and has removed any of that discomfort. I plan to put some decent mileage on it in coming months, so I'll report back as I get more seat time

This is actually a very interesting point, it would not be that hard to plumb in a pressure regulating valve with the return line and then you could customize your steering as needed for different conditions and needs

 

[JR4X]

I hear you on the effects of the steering ratio changes/diffs....all things equal e.g. 4 turns lock to lock...

I'm trying to figure out where to position this in the order of:

1) Stock steering
2) Hydro assist
3) This Mechanical Servo Steering
4) Full Hydro



Meaning does this solution provide all of the benefits of hydro assist and full hydro or is it compromise between the 2? Excluding considerations for the the required drag link and the implications of that....

I guess more specifically since we are moving the servo out of the steering box and into a stand alone high flow servo, does that change the steering input, feedback compared to hydro assists or is simply the same and just more flow/powerful?

This is the best of both worlds. The feel and feedback of ram assist, with the power and speed output of full hydro. It’s literally just big ass ram assist.

 

[KrisKYK]

Perfect, looks like the torsion bar can be tuned as needed as well.

Thanks again for putting this together, this is a major contribution to the tech and solved a lot things i've been struggling with in for my new build.

 

[Provience]

If you let go of the steering wheel, when you hit an obstacle the wheels can freely be turned lock to lock. It requires the differential pressure at the torsion bar from the wheels to the steering wheel to activate the hydro side. As long as you hold onto the steering wheel, it cannot be ripped out of your hands. If you plow into something you will feel a very slight twitch to the steering wheel that will immediately go away when the hydro takes the impact. As long as you don't turn to the steering wheel the hydro will keep the wheels pointed where you want them, there is no creep.

When you reach the limits of how much flow the servo integrated into the steering box can flow, you look at the remote mounted servo options such as the Sweet valve he noted above. This has the same function as the factory valving in your steering box, but can flow a much higher volume with less restriction, which is great for racing etc. Another thing that can be done, is bypassing the steering box entirely and sending all of the flow to the ram. You loose a little potential force because you're no longer getting help from the box, but you need *much* less volume, so your steering gets faster. As far as my own street/trail setup is concerned, de-powering the steering box is probably my next step to speed things up.

The valve is where I'm stuck with few options. It looks like Howe and Sweet are the only options. I need to dig around in the industrial parts catalogs, maybe there's something else on the market that's more generic and cheaper.

snipping out these 3 quotes as they seem to go together.

a big benefit with the Howe valve is that it isolates the impact force from being sent back through the system as JR talks about. if going to a cheaper valve or just using a stock box neutered so that the factory valve only effects the ram, will that stock valve similarly isolate an impact from being sent back through the system?


edit: also, huge thanks to JR4X for bringing this over here!

 

[AgitatedPancake]

This is actually a very interesting point, it would not be that hard to plumb in a pressure regulating valve with the return line and then you could customize your steering as needed for different conditions and needs

As I learn exactly how stock pumps work over in the CBR thread, I've realized that factory pumps have fully integral pressure reliefs, and flow volume reliefs. And either can be changed as desired. The pressure relief is the threaded nut with shims under it, and the flow relief is the diameter of the orofice in the outlet fitting. So I went way overkill on the flow orofice diameter, and was flowing stupid amounts of fluid at high RPMs but still limited at ~1100psi intentionally because i didn't modify the pressure relief side of things. So I just put a smaller orofice pressure fitting back in, which lets the pump start bypassing at lower flow numbers so it doesn't get silly as you rev the engine up.

This is a chart I uploaded in the other thread, it's for some Eaton/Vickers pumps but very great explanation as to how the flow relief works in stock form. The top left chart is what we're focused on here, unregulated the pump has an extremely steep slope of volume per revolution (which is essentially where I was). But the 3 cutoff lines are simply different sized orofices in the control valve which then dramatically level the displacement per RPM to stabilize the feel after a certain point. In this example they have a 3gpm, 3.5 gpm, and 4 gpm cutoff which are essentially just holes drilled to different diameters in that outlet valve.

 

[KrisKYK]

Any thoughts on the effects and considerations of the sensitivity of the servo's torsion bar vs the gearbox's turn ratio?

What's ideal, the ram to travel the same speed as the gearbox?

If the the servo and RAM outtravel the gearbox's speed what would that be like?

 

[JR4X]

If the the servo and RAM outtravel the gearbox's speed what would that be like?

Like a vibrator! If things don’t move in harmony, the servo starts bouncing back and forth right to left trying to find neutral. It will seriously shake the car hard enough to disassemble or even break stuff. In 2016 I was trying to help some people retrofit this into some weird setups. One of them oscillated hard enough to twist the sector shaft off of the steering box on a flat cement garage floor.

 

[Provience]

Like a vibrator! If things don’t move in harmony, the servo starts bouncing back and forth right to left trying to find neutral. It will seriously shake the car hard enough to disassemble or even break stuff. In 2016 I was trying to help some people retrofit this into some weird setups. One of them oscillated hard enough to twist the sector shaft off of the steering box on a flat cement garage floor.

that's pretty impressive!

 

[KrisKYK]

Like a vibrator! If things don’t move in harmony, the servo starts bouncing back and forth right to left trying to find neutral. It will seriously shake the car hard enough to disassemble or even break stuff. In 2016 I was trying to help some people retrofit this into some weird setups. One of them oscillated hard enough to twist the sector shaft off of the steering box on a flat cement garage floor.

Holy smokes...that's crazy

 

[Fwjeep]

Like a vibrator! If things don’t move in harmony, the servo starts bouncing back and forth right to left trying to find neutral. It will seriously shake the car hard enough to disassemble or even break stuff. In 2016 I was trying to help some people retrofit this into some weird setups. One of them oscillated hard enough to twist the sector shaft off of the steering box on a flat cement garage floor.

destroy the bearings in factory servo if it’s there too.
break teeth off the sector shaft. (If it’s a powered box)