Could you comfortably support a family of 5 with a diploma

[DRTDEVL]

Biggest issue is cost of existing increases. Phone, phone bill, computer, internet, ect.

Nope. When I was starting out, a home phone cost me $35/month. My current home phone is $9.99/month and my cell phone is $14/month... so I am paying $10.01 less in phone expenses and have two lines. My phone? $174, cash. It has 6 gb ram and 128gb internal storage, expandable to 1TB. My first cell phone was over $500 and barely made calls and texts successfully. My first internet was 28k dial up at $30/month. I currently pay 3x the amount for 2,100x the speed (600mb). It is all incredibly cheaper without even factoring for inflation.

I suppose the price for square foot then, adjusted for inflation now, qualified by the location?

Why Millennials Can’t Afford Homes: Housing Prices vs. Inflation

Housing prices have soared above the inflation rate – but what does this mean for consumers pursuing the American Dream?

anytimeestimate.com

"We found that home prices have rapidly increased over the last five decades, eclipsing the inflation rate by 150% since 1970. In fact, if home prices grew at the same rate as inflation since 1970, the median home price today would be just $177,788 – rather than $408,100."

The report also concludes millennials face a 31% higher home price to income ratio than a boomer in their 30s did.

I'm no finance expert, but I'm eager to read any literature that demonstrates I'm incorrect. I'm genuinely interested in this issue.

You hit the nail on the head with your initial question. The average home size in 1970 was 1500 sq ft. By 2014, the average had ballooned to 2,657 sq ft... therefore you would effectively have to multiply the new home price by 0.5645 in order to have an equivalent price comparison, so that $408,100 becomes just over $230,000 for the same amount of home rather than the inflation-adjusted $177,788, only out-pacing inflation by about 22% or so, not 150%.

Prices aren't increasing faster than inflation, people's expectations are.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

Never had kids so I live like an ass hole.

I'm laughing because I'm the same way. My wife isn't necessarily a fan of my spending habits but in the 20yrs we have been together she has gotten used to it. She has a very good job and has plenty of spending money of her own, so she does her thing too.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

And to add.... Fuck it, you only live once. If you die with piles of money in the bank, you fucked up in life.

 

[JR4X]

I'm laughing because I'm the same way. My wife isn't necessarily a fan of my spending habits but in the 20yrs we have been together she has gotten used to it. She has a very good job and has plenty of spending money of her own, so she does her thing too.

If I get in a relationship shit will be some version of that. I’m sick of womens shit.

 

[Crashhawk]

My family of 4 is pretty comfortable, and 3 dogs are atleast as expensive as another child. So yeah.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

If I get in a relationship shit will be some version of that. I’m sick of womens shit.

I gave up looking for a chick to settle down with in my early 20s when I decided I liked cool toys, racing and traveling more than the headaches woman gave me. Then one day 19yrs ago my now wife walked into my shop looking to get her Dodge Stealth R/T twin turbo clutch replaced and she just kind of never left. I never stopped doing my thing and she hung by my side through thick and thin. I told her a week into dating her that I had no intentions of getting married or possibly having kids until I'm 40 and nothing will change my mind. We got married 9 days after my 40th birthday and I tortured that poor girl for 12 years before it happened. She is very awesome.

 

[SomeGuyFromOlympia]

I gave up looking for a chick to settle down with in my early 20s when I decided I liked cool toys, racing and traveling more than the headaches woman gave me. Then one day 19yrs ago my now wife walked into my shop looking to get her Dodge Stealth R/T twin turbo clutch replaced and she just kind of never left. I never stopped doing my thing and she hung by my side through thick and thin. I told her a week into dating her that I had no intentions of getting married or possibly having kids until I'm 40 and nothing will change my mind. We got married 9 days after my 40th birthday and I tortured that poor girl for 12 years before it happened. She is very awesome.

I used to say 40
then 40 arrived, and realized that was too quick
50 is coming too fast
so I just say it isn't going to happen now

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

I used to say 40
then 40 arrived, and realized that was too quick
50 is coming too fast
so I just say it isn't going to happen now

If I were to get divorced tomorrow (not that I want that to happen) I'd be living the 45acp dream divorce lifestyle where I'd be parking my truck in the living room of my shopdominium.

 

[speed bump]

Got a bunch of guys where I work doing it. Min starting wage where I work is $28/hr and you can jump to $35/hr within a month unless you choose not to. Not everyone is cut out for shift work in Montana during the winter though. If you hang out and show initiative it's not hard to transfer into a supervisory role and my company doesn't care a ton about degrees outside of engineering roles so you can climb pretty far if you are so inclined and willing to change plants.

 

[MChat]

It starts with the parents. Break the cycle.

Working on it. On track to be debt free, including mortgages, in 4-5 years (currently only have a mortgage) and breaking the mentality/programming of wanting the latest greatest gadget.

 

[SomeGuyFromOlympia]

I lived with a bitter Step Father Paramedic/Firefighter
He worked three jobs

always having to impress the strangers with the new bling truck, the 50 acre farm, hot tub, vaulted ceilings, satellite dishes, and of course the giant big screen movie theater TV entertainment system

He had a wife that spent money like congress
and four kids

We did not live comfortably

but our family did not act on self control,

If you quit giving a shit what others think, you can more than live comfortably

 

[roundhouse]

This is a long read , so get comfortable ,
Or come back to it when you’re on the toilet .


Definitely doable .

Ask most any immigrant .

It mostly all depends on your motivation and drive and not spending every dime you earn.

The Hispanic guys building my garage don’t run to a fast food place for lunch . They brought a freaking Coleman stove and cooked lunch everyday .

I know some immigrants from Eastern Europe , who came over a few years ago , from Ukraine and Bulgaria etc , they all are doing ok , with large families , because they work hard and are very very thrifty with their money.

One of em , who had bought a single wide trailer for $4000 cash , in a trailer park , asked me one time in about 2001 or so :
“ my neighbors , day Americans , why day live in trailer park ? “

“Let me guess , their TV is this big ( extending my arms all the way out ) ( this was back when a 60 inch flat screen was expensive )

“Da, their telebishion very large , I can see from my trailer . They also have new Cadillac and new shove row lay truck “

This guy was still driving the same $700 Chrysler K car he bought at an auction 6 years previously.

His wife was a stay at home mom and a seamstress with a pretty good side gig doing alterations at home for several stores .
These guys never borrowed money for anything , certainally not a car , and they didn’t have or use credit cards .

They borrowed money for a house , but that was it , and the house was always a fixer upper that was a bargain for anyone handy with tools .

Any other one of the guys , his wife ran a unlicensed daycare center in their home , and she made truckloads of money , their two car garage was like a chuck e cheese place .

One of them found a business that built windows that was throwing away all the lumber that the glass arrived in. Not only throwing it away they were paying a trash hauler to haul it off .
He got them to pay him to haul it off ,
He went there every day after his regular job , pulled the nails out , and loaded it on a old boat trailer he got for free , and took it to a small lot they had purchased for cash , in a nearby location they had researched and learned was the only municipality nearby that allowed homeowner permits , for people to do their own construction without being a licensed general contractor or a licensed plumber etc
He took the lumber every day and stacked it and covered it . He did this five days a week for two and a half years until he had enough lumber to build a house.
Then they drove around till they found a fairly new house they liked in that municipality, knocked on the door and asked if they could have a copy of the blueprints. So they got a set of prints , recently approved by the county, for free instead of paying for them .

I barely graduated high school ,and I’ve managed to do ok, we only have one kid , not three , but anything after one kid , the wife is gonna be a stay at home mom , and with some frugality and a decent side hustle , can do pretty well.
If you got three kids just take in one more for whatever the going rate is and that one extra kid will nearly make your mortgage payment .


My nephew didn’t go to college. Well he went one year and dropped out and did hvac repair for about a year and then became a certified welder for about a year and then got his CDL .
He is 24 , he’s gone during the week but home every weekend . He made $97k last year , and has ZERO debt .
No school loans , no car loans , no credit card balances , and he’s building a decent collection of vintage cars. He’s Probabaly got $40 or 50k worth of cars and other useful durable items .

 

[kf4zht]

If you can manage expenses and target the right jobs - yes.
I deal with contractors a lot, at this point they are paying $25-35 for guys just to pull wire and terminate network connections. The guys that do fiber, security or AV get more - typ $40-50/hr. There has been near unlimited overtime the past few years. Most places will give you a company truck/van so you don't need that cost. One that I tried to bring on fulltime told me I would need to match his last years gross of $220k.

But some of them are still broke. And its easy to see why

• Out to lunch every day
• hit the gas station for energy drinks every morning
• smoke or vape
• newest cell phone and a several hundred $$ cell bill
• either all the streaming services or some fancy direct tv package
• Always loosing tools and having to buy new
• buying stupid shit when they get a big paycheck, then selling cheap when things slow down
• Don't show up to work several times a month (or a week)

Watching the hispanic work crews around here shows you how to save money - they all eat on the jobsite, usually one of their families cooks and brings it and they do a lunch line. They aren't on cell phones all the time, they use the equipment they have, don't buy new every job, they carpool to the job site. All of them take their afternoon nap and get back at it, work probably 10-12 hour days. They aren't talking about the last show they watched on TV or what happened on instagram all the time. They wheel and deal for everything

 

[DRTDEVL]

If you quit giving a shit what others think, you can more than live comfortably

So much this.

Drive the older, but still reliable car. Buy the $200 Motorola phone that does the same thing as the $2000 Apple or Samsung. Wear clothes until they aren't acceptable anymore, then make them work (or workout) clothes. White New Balance dad shoes are a lot cheaper than Jordans and work just as well.

My last full year of being married to my ex-, we were broke as shit. Household income of about $250k that year, and the cars were up for repo, the phones got cut off, the utilities all had shut-off notices, and we lived in a $109,000 home. She always wanted the latest and greatest and would buy it the moment there was enough room on a credit card to do so. Fast-forward 7 years, I am remarried, have a kid, have a household income about 30% lower than the year in the example, I put about half of my take-home pay into savings every month, and we can afford to go places and do things, even after paying tuition for my son. Next year will be awesome as he will be going to a public kindergarten before heading back down the private track the following year and I am paying tuition again.

 

[Ebs]

Right, spending is a more impactful factor than income. If you are broke and stressed at $50k/year income you are likely gonna be broke and stressed at $150k/year income, because you manage money like the .gov

 

[MChat]

It is difficult to have "self-control" when you are programmed nearly from birth to be little more than a consumer of all the things society tells you that you should have in order to be "successful". And the system makes it easy for you to get in debt in order to "achieve" that success of having all of this junk without having to actually work for it; you'll just work on paying it off the rest of your life. Of course, you'll never actually pay it off, as there is always the newer, bigger, better thing that you just HAVE TO HAVE in order to be considered "successful".

It's your reward for being a good little cog in the machine.

It starts with the parents. Break the cycle.

I wanted to add on to this. The more I learn about how the human mind works, particularly the subconscious mind, the more I realize how important it is for us to turn off the TV. The TV has become the #1 source of "programming" society; it is by far the most effective tool, far more effective than even the public (mis)education system.

Let's use "product placement" as an example since it is easy to see and look for in your TV programs and movies (and there are hundreds more techniques being used than just product placement). It is so common that your conscious mind usually wont' even see it unless you are looking for it. But your subconscious mind picks up on not only The Product, but the context of what is going on as well. I'm going to oversimplify this a bit, but this is basically how it works:

You're watching a program and the "hero" succeeds at whatever the "mission" was, in the background there's The Product (doesn't even have to be being used by the "hero"); your conscious mind says, "this is what success looks like" so the subconscious mind takes notes of all the details (including The Product) and puts it in a box in your brain "this is what success looks like". Later on, you're wanting to be successful, and your subconscious finds the box "this is what success looks like" and says "if you want to be successful you have to buy The Product because it is in the mental picture of 'this is what success looks like'".

Viola! The Product has just become (in your mind) 100% necessary, because if you don't have it then you cannot possibly be considered "successful" since it is part of the mental image of "this is what success looks like."

Product placement is rampant in both TV shows and movies, heck Starbucks even managed to get their cup into a Game of Thrones episode (and if you think it was just an accident, you are mistaken). You could make a drinking game of it, every time you see a recognizable product, take a drink. You'll be plastered by the time one or two episodes are over. And for every recognizable product (e.g., brand showing) there are 10 other products that are harder to consciously recognize (but your subconscious is making note of them).

It's not just products for you to buy, but ideas that they want you to have. Pay attention to posters and other things that are in the background of TV programs and movies. In the background of Lethal Weapon (1 or 2, I don't remember which), in the police station where Murdock and Riggs work, on the wall behind them in a 15-20 second scene is an anti-gun poster. Looks like something that would belong in a police station, but it's not there to make the scene look more authentic, it's there to "speak" to your subconscious mind.

Edit to add: Product placement doesn't even have to be a specific product. Al Bundy's house was HUGE for a single income family of the era, especially when you consider that Al was a shoe salesman at a shopping mall likely barely making above minimum wage. The effect of this is twofold: people go out and buy bigger houses than they can actually afford (after all if a shoe salesman can afford a house like that, I should be able to) AND people buy into the idea that a minimum wage job should pay enough to support a family of four living in such a house. (And now you know why the sheep want minimum wage increases to $15 or more).

And as I said before, Product Placement is just one of hundreds of techniques being used to program the way you think. So, watch that TV and see those movies, make sure your mind is receiving its daily dose of "how to be a good little product-buying wage-slave cog-in-the-machine" programming. You'll be buying products (on readily available credit) and even worse "ideas" that you otherwise wouldn't even want.

 

[MO Printer]

I like many others grew up in a one-income family. Dad was a chemist for the railroad, Mom was a stay at home... I'm the oldest of six kids in the house!
We didn't go without, we just made it work. A different generation indeed! No regerts!

 

[aczlan]

If all you have is a diploma that's on you. Most highschools offer FREE dual enrolling at a trade school or college junior and senior year.
Lean a skill, get good, and make money. Bouncing around 15a hour jobs will get you know where.
I'm 25 and I'm going on my 3rd year of just doing my own business full time, definitely making enough money.

Locally they have a program like that, but just through school, a co-worker's son went through it and EVERY KID IN THE CLASS had a job through it, IIRC they cover workers comp for the kids enrolled in it during a paid internship (and possibly their first year?). He is operating CNC machines for a great local company who will pay for his education going forward if he wants to progress.
A coworker went through the same program, went through several local shops and is now working on forklifts and whatever else the guys break, nothing past a HS diploma, but he is making good money.

Everyone with that succeeds.

The difference is that 50yr ago a random dolt without it could climb the ladder a few rungs too.

They can now as well if they are willing to:

• Show up every day on time
• At least pretend to work
• Not be visibly drunk or drugged
• Be reasonably polite to customers and coworkers

Stupid people can go work hard and be wildly successful today. Easier than ever.

Employers are begging for people all over, myself included and paying ridiculous amounts. Skilled or not, simply willing to work.

Just because people were better decision makers doesn’t mean they had it easier.

Exactly, if you are willing to work and look for places that will reward people who are willing to work, you will do well.

I don’t blame Boomers at all. I envy their advantageous economic climate. It’s silly to hate on a previous generation, but objectively they did have it much easier.

I’m also relying heavily on the economic data supporting boomers being the richest generation. “Ease” of lifestyle is debatable, I suppose. But dollar for dollar, it is indisputable that boomers’ dollars bought them more, and they had more dollars in light of cost of living.

What year range are you referring to?

Drive the older, but still reliable car. Buy the $200 Motorola phone that does the same thing as the $2000 Apple or Samsung. Wear clothes until they aren't acceptable anymore, then make them work (or workout) clothes. White New Balance dad shoes are a lot cheaper than Jordans and work just as well

Exactly, I grew up in a large family with 1 income (perhaps a little more when Mom and Dad were dabbling in various MLMs, but I don't know that they ever made enough to cover the time they put into them).
As far as I know, Dad only ever bought one vehicle brand new, that was a Mazda B2000 diesel pickup which was a 2 year old leftover that he bought at the end of the year.
Everything else was generally brought used, usually for a good price and we made it work.
We always had plenty to eat and plenty of clothes to wear (often from the thrift store).
We never had the "latest toys" (we didn't have a TV until I was 10), but we enjoyed reading books (one librarian hated us coming in because we would "check out too many books" ).
When I was a teenager we moved from rural Upstate NY to near Atlanta and lived in a subdivision (too many people and not enough elbow room), but we had a lot more "toys" there and my younger siblings had a completely different experience growing up.

My kids have it much better than I did, still one income (when we had our first, daycare would have been more than my wife was making where she was working), still lots of used stuff or deals (had my youngest helping me this morning putting a used Predator motor into the go cart).
As far as tools and toys, I have a lot more than Dad had, but most of them are/were good deals (where I could sell them for at least what I have into them) and I have a lot less mouths to feed.


Aaron Z

 

[IowaOffRoad]

It's easy to see why people think that, let's say 69k/yr (an income level that someone who learned a trade/skill should be able to make where I live after 10+years doing it) isn't enough to live comfortably. BTW this is the average household income in Iowa, average household size is 2.42.
Lets do some math. I was going to break this down by each part of the household bills, but there's a website that lumps them all together:

This is What the Average Iowa Household Pays in Bills Every Month – 24/7 Wall St.

This is what in encompasses, and the figure given for Iowa seems low: rent, auto loans, utilities, car insurance, cable, internet, mobile phone, and health insurance- $1784/mo.

I can say that figure, if you back out rent for me and put in property taxes may be close. No auto loans, but I'm paying utilites at two properties.

1784*12=$21,408
Now, this is with an average household size of 2.42 in Iowa. I'm sure that with 5 you can expect an increase, but it's not double, but let's double it:

3568*12=$42,816
Neither figure doesn't take into account car fuel or food or clothes.

So, I can say for certain that if you have a family of 5 and making 69k you aren't paying much in federal taxes, and only a few thousand to the state. I know that doubled figure isn't correct, so split the difference and say those costs are 30k

So, 69k minus whatever taxes you might be paying, make it 55k (includes social security). Take my 'worst case' of 30k for household and you have 25k left to buy food an fuel.
Food costs for family is hard to find, but the US average is 8%. Of course this is across all income brackets, but food is relatively cheap in Iowa so let's say 10%.
69k*10%= $6900

Gas: This figure is hard to find, but let's say the average household in Iowa travels 500mi/wk and their fleet average MPG is 18mpg. Doing that math with $3.50 gas price gives us a fuel bill of about $5056/year

So...
25k-6900-5056=$13,044

So, this puts $13,000 towards clothes and other household products.

Now, I know there are problems with these numbers. If you are buying a house the average mortgage payment all by itself in Iowa is $1300. I know some spend way more on gas (I bet my fuel bill is double that above).

This doesn't mean that everyone CAN do it, but it does mean that it is doable. There's plenty of bullshit in the margins that can be done away with to increase your distance between bills and income, if you look at this breakdown I'm sure you can see it too. Of course, there's the exceptions, but you can't make broad-scale assumptions about society based on exceptions.

Please someone tell me what I've missed. Again, the example I'm using is IOWA, if you are from NY, CA or IL this may not apply to you, but if you'll look I bet you'll find that while the expenses are higher, so is the average income.

BTW I've got to note that with most households having 2 incomes, why is the average, even for Iowa, so LOW? I don't know anyone who is working a job at 40 with a couple of kids who isn't making basically what the average income is with one job in the house, anyone with both parents working is bumping 6 figures or is over 6 figures... that I know of course. They all aren't working 70hrs/wk either, and many of the ones I'm talking about aren't papered for anything.

 

[DannyK]

As far as I know, Dad only ever bought one vehicle brand new, that was a Mazda B2000 diesel pickup which was a 2 year old leftover that he bought at the end of the year.


Aaron Z

This is an excellent point. I think too many people today think they have to own/deserve a new truck/car. I'm 49 yrs old and have never bought a new vehicle. I've always been patient and found good deals on used vehicles. My current DD is 13 yrs old. My truck is 22 yrs old. My wife's car is 9 yrs old. I've been thinking hard about replacing both my DD and my truck for a while now, but patience is key right now with prices still in the stupid zone.

 

[MChat]

This is an excellent point. I think too many people today think they have to own/deserve a new truck/car. I'm 49 yrs old and have never bought a new vehicle. I've always been patient and found good deals on used vehicles. My current DD is 13 yrs old. My truck is 22 yrs old. My wife's car is 9 yrs old. I've been thinking hard about replacing both my DD and my truck for a while now, but patience is key right now with prices still in the stupid zone.

I buy most of my vehicles used, 1-3 years old with less than 20k miles on them. They are, generally speaking, practically "brand new". And (pre-Covid) they were generally 30-40% cheaper than they were as a brand-new vehicle. In early 2007 I bought a very lightly used (9800 miles) 2005 LJ Rubicon from a dealer for $25k out the door; I found the original "sticker" in the glovebox for almost $37k (and then add on tax, title, license, etc. = 40k+).

Buying brand new is nearly always unwise.

 

[grumpy356]

I wanted to add on to this. The more I learn about how the human mind works, particularly the subconscious mind, the more I realize how important it is for us to turn off the TV. The TV has become the #1 source of "programming" society; it is by far the most effective tool, far more effective than even the public (mis)education system.

Let's use "product placement" as an example since it is easy to see and look for in your TV programs and movies (and there are hundreds more techniques being used than just product placement). It is so common that your conscious mind usually wont' even see it unless you are looking for it. But your subconscious mind picks up on not only The Product, but the context of what is going on as well. I'm going to oversimplify this a bit, but this is basically how it works:

You're watching a program and the "hero" succeeds at whatever the "mission" was, in the background there's The Product (doesn't even have to be being used by the "hero"); your conscious mind says, "this is what success looks like" so the subconscious mind takes notes of all the details (including The Product) and puts it in a box in your brain "this is what success looks like". Later on, you're wanting to be successful, and your subconscious finds the box "this is what success looks like" and says "if you want to be successful you have to buy The Product because it is in the mental picture of 'this is what success looks like'".

Viola! The Product has just become (in your mind) 100% necessary, because if you don't have it then you cannot possibly be considered "successful" since it is part of the mental image of "this is what success looks like."

Product placement is rampant in both TV shows and movies, heck Starbucks even managed to get their cup into a Game of Thrones episode (and if you think it was just an accident, you are mistaken). You could make a drinking game of it, every time you see a recognizable product, take a drink. You'll be plastered by the time one or two episodes are over. And for every recognizable product (e.g., brand showing) there are 10 other products that are harder to consciously recognize (but your subconscious is making note of them).

It's not just products for you to buy, but ideas that they want you to have. Pay attention to posters and other things that are in the background of TV programs and movies. In the background of Lethal Weapon (1 or 2, I don't remember which), in the police station where Murdock and Riggs work, on the wall behind them in a 15-20 second scene is an anti-gun poster. Looks like something that would belong in a police station, but it's not there to make the scene look more authentic, it's there to "speak" to your subconscious mind.

Edit to add: Product placement doesn't even have to be a specific product. Al Bundy's house was HUGE for a single income family of the era, especially when you consider that Al was a shoe salesman at a shopping mall likely barely making above minimum wage. The effect of this is twofold: people go out and buy bigger houses than they can actually afford (after all if a shoe salesman can afford a house like that, I should be able to) AND people buy into the idea that a minimum wage job should pay enough to support a family of four living in such a house. (And now you know why the sheep want minimum wage increases to $15 or more).

And as I said before, Product Placement is just one of hundreds of techniques being used to program the way you think. So, watch that TV and see those movies, make sure your mind is receiving its daily dose of "how to be a good little product-buying wage-slave cog-in-the-machine" programming. You'll be buying products (on readily available credit) and even worse "ideas" that you otherwise wouldn't even want.

It's funny you say this,because I literally just left an ad, which took me to a site, selling motorcycle pants with pockets for armor and the armor.

I've about convinced myself the only thing between me and true happiness is those riding pants.
I mean, yeah, I've lived without them until now, but ... it's for safety.


Also, How is what you're describing different than this site?
You know how much shit I see on here every day in the build threads and here in gcc that I didn't know that I couldn't live without? From a complete subaru ummm I mean SCOOB build to a 3d printer on sale at microcenter.

I spend WAY more on shit that I see on here than what I see on TV. (I mean I'm not buying a Casino riverboat in the Ozarks .... but taking apart my 04 Subaru Outback.... maybe.)

 

[ThePanzerFuhrer]

Y'all are missing the boat being wage slaves.

Starting your own business is where it's at.

Lol so you get to work for a real asshole who doesn’t pay good enough. I have been self employed my entire life.

 

[rockota]

I buy most of my vehicles used, 1-3 years old with less than 20k miles on them. They are, generally speaking, practically "brand new". And (pre-Covid) they were generally 30-40% cheaper than they were as a brand-new vehicle. In early 2007 I bought a very lightly used (9800 miles) 2005 LJ Rubicon from a dealer for $25k out the door; I found the original "sticker" in the glovebox for almost $37k (and then add on tax, title, license, etc. = 40k+).

Buying brand new is nearly always unwise.

Laughs in 2021 and 2022.

 

[grumpy356]

Laughs in 2021 and 2022.

I’ve heard that shit in my whole life. I’ve even believed it, until I went to go try to buy a new truck with 20,000 miles. Then I found the whole concept to be a farce. I could never find any vehicle less than three years old with less than 20,000 miles, that was substantially less than buying new. Especially in the truck market.


But everyone talks like it’s common i& real, so I assume it’s just me.

 

[MChat]

Also, How is what you're describing different than this site?
You know how much shit I see on here every day in the build threads and here in gcc that I didn't know that I couldn't live without? From a complete subaru ummm I mean SCOOB build to a 3d printer on sale at microcenter.

What you're getting from here is more like a contact high from 2nd hand smoke.

It's actually a more organic form of the same type of programming. This place represents a community of "like-minded people" so you get shots of serotonin when you do things that your subconscious determines will help you to "fit in" here. However, the programming you get here is generally more useful: the majority of guys here are (ab)using, maintaining and fixing The Product, thus there is a higher likelihood if you obtain The Product, it will actually help you "be successful" in whatever context The Product is actually designed for.

Meanwhile the crap your subconscious mind is getting sold on, on TV and in movies is exactly that: crap. Crap that doesn't have anything to do with the actual success you're looking for. Drinking a Pepsi or Coke isn't going to make you more attractive to that Hot Chick you're interested in like it does in the TV programs/movies/commercials (that's what the subconscious mind picked up from said programming).

Now here's the messed-up part, if you pay attention to programming aimed at women, and pay attention to what the guys in those programs are doing/wearing/owning/controlling, and you mimicked those men, women actually will find you more attractive than the next guy because women have been programmed to do so. But generally speaking, the programming for men turn off women and vice versa. Ironically, the programming designed for women will often work on gay men as well and thus gay men will inadvertently mimic those men and be more attractive to women then the straight guy standing next to him.

 

[MChat]

I’ve heard that shit in my whole life. I’ve even believed it, until I went to go try to buy a new truck with 20,000 miles. Then I found the whole concept to be a farce. I could never find any vehicle less than three years old with less than 20,000 miles, that was substantially less than buying new. Especially in the truck market.


But everyone talks like it’s common i& real, so I assume it’s just me.

Yea post-covid the rules seem to have changed. I can sell my 2016 Ram 2500 with just over 100k miles on it for more than I paid for it six years ago. Even in 2017, it wasn't that much better of a deal to buy a used truck vs a new truck (it was about 10% cheaper), but now it's just crazy.

 

[FJC11]

No, a kid today cannot get ahead in life with only a high school diploma. No other licenses, permits, etc.

It's easy for a boomer (et al) to say yes, given a different time and 40 years in a field under their belt.

I know countless 'kids' in their early 20s who are having to bounce around $15/hr jobs because no one will give them a chance.

My oldest ( 20 ) is in the process of being a lineman, and my youngest i( 17 ) is looking to be a welder, there is plenty of opportunity out there if you apply yourself.

Fuck these excuses, you want something fucking work to that goal.

 

[IowaOffRoad]

I know countless 'kids' in their early 20s who are having to bounce around $15/hr jobs because no one will give them a chance.

What 'chances' are they looking for? To be handed an office job in advertising? To work as a coder for Amazon? To be in management at 3M? Be a surgical assistant?

Some avenues to success at a chosen field require some kind of education, some don't. Some of that education can be OJT (which means that you might be pushing broom or getting coffee for a while), some may require a cert from a local CC. Sometimes in order to get that opportunity you need to work a job for money then go volunteer or work for pennies at your dream job or dream job adjacent. Most don't want to work that hard or start at the bottom. Maybe some of those 'countless kids' are spending too much time 'living their best life' slinging coffee for Starbucks to get that opportunity?
There's been several times in my life I've had to work like a madman to get an opportunity. It isn't a life sentence, but putting in 6 weeks to 6 months of effort like this never killed anybody and may be all that's needed to break through.

 

[DRTDEVL]

Please someone tell me what I've missed.

BTW I've got to note that with most households having 2 incomes, why is the average, even for Iowa, so LOW? I don't know anyone who is working a job at 40 with a couple of kids who isn't making basically what the average income is with one job in the house, anyone with both parents working is bumping 6 figures or is over 6 figures... that I know of course. They all aren't working 70hrs/wk either, and many of the ones I'm talking about aren't papered for anything.

You missed the household size. Most "families" aren't 0-1 kid in size (0.42)... this means the average household in Iowa is a single dude and the other household balancing it out is the single momma (his ex or a hookup gone wrong) with 1 or 2 kids. I bet they didn't take CS income into those household income numbers, as the average household would be making nearly double if they lived under the same roof.