Could you comfortably support a family of 5 with a diploma

[DRTDEVL]

Way too busy today to read through all of this . But, what I will say is to everyone mentioning drug tests : hardly anyone is doing drug testing anymore and if they do they don’t test for weed. Even the .gov isn’t drug testing anymore .

The .gov still mandates we drug test all applicants and employees. For weed, too.

 

[PoBoy84]

True, but I know of nobody really killing it in an office job without working some long hours and/or travelling. I also know of few people holding office jobs who only have one household income. I would agree with you that some trades are hard to do past 50. I also have not seen marriages any more stable from the office crowd vs. the blue collar crowd. Trucking and travelling out-of-state construction exempted, as those groups are rife with divorce.

Can't argue that, but you are basically telling everyone with every argument that it is basically impossible to live comfortably without a degree. The millions flooding across the border to take blue collar jobs, who will in a few years be buying houses, and have more kids than your average gringo working in an office will argue with your point your trying to make too.

All my buddies with "non-specialized" 4 year degrees are making less money now at 40-45 as I was at 23. All my buddies with specialized 4 year degrees ain't really that much better off.

 

[MChat]

I'm Sr network/systems engineer. Over 25 years of IT experience and started out in IT immediately after HS in the military.

I have no college whatsoever but do have a lot of industry certifications.

I've recently started looking for another job and finding that a LOT of job posting require a bachelor's degree. Doesn't matter what the degree is in and they are no longer accepting experience in lieu of a degree like they used too.

I've even spoken to several HR managers saying the same thing.

I'm a software engineer with no degree; straight from high school into the military, straight from the military into IT/programming. It was definitely easier to get into programming with no degree when I did vs now. I got my first programming job in 1996 during the dot-com boon and Y2K "switch" era; a time when anyone who could write a line of code could get a job.

Today, you have to go through the HR filtration process which a lot of time, especially for larger companies toss resumes with no degrees listed. Since I never "learned" how to program, I just started doing it, I make it a point to talk to HR whenever I am hired somewhere to make sure that they don't toss a resume just because the candidate doesn't have degrees or certifications. In my experience, some of the best programmers I've worked with didn't have degrees or certifications, and some of the worst programmers I've worked with had one or both. And I'm talking "worst" as in they'd hit Stack-Exchange to get an example of how to write a "hello world" program.

When I screen resumes and interview people, I never, ever look to see if the candidate has a degree or cert. I want to know if they can technically do the job, what kind of team player they are and if they'll fit with the company and team "culture".

With the exception of one, the last half-dozen or so jobs I've had I was contacted by them or by the recruiter representing them unsolicited. In that same time period, and a little before (2008ish), I've never interviewed with a company that didn't offer me the position. The only challenge I've had (for the one job I applied for without prior solicitation by them) was getting past HR. I had to insist on meeting with the recruiter face-to-face and then he went to bat for me with HR to get me the interview with the hiring manager.

In summary, yes it can be a PITA getting past HR in order to get the interview, even with 25+ years of experience.

 

[Splib]

Did Dominion reach out to you ??

 

[rockota]

By the Numbers: Education of the Forbes 400

Think you need a college degree to become a business star--think again. Out of the 400 richest people in the U.S, 63 entrepreneurs don’t have one–more than 15% of the list. Here is a break down of the highest degrees earned by the American billionaires of the Forbes 400

www.forbes.com

 

[Leadfoot21]

The .gov still mandates we drug test all applicants and employees. For weed, too.

Not here we don’t. I do all the hiring for my side of things and it’s that way across the board here . I don’t agree with it, but that’s how it is .

 

[MChat]

What people are salty about is that prior generations didn't have to make good decisions to achieve those outcomes.

Don't discount that the world was a more dangerous place to grow up 40-50 years ago. The "boomers" and "gen-Xers" that made really bad decisions just aren't around to talk to anymore.

But I do get what you are saying. The level of "success" that boomers and gen-x achieved required less effort that it would today. However, I will also say that the "bar of success" has moved higher as well.

"Success" in the 50'-60's was a car in the driveway, a 3/2 or 4/2 house 1600-1800sq ft home, 2-4 healthy kids, a single "big" 16-19" TV, a console radio, one phone and nearly no other electronics except for small kitchen appliances.

"Success" in the 70's/80's was the same 1600-1800 sq ft home, but with a 2 car garage with 2 cars in it, a microwave in the kitchen, a VCR and an ATARI (with a dozen or less games) for that old console TV, a 2nd small TV for the kitchen a couple of "Walkman's" for the kids and a "rack" stereo system, and a couple of ATV's or dirt-bikes.

Fast forward to today and success is 2400+ sq ft home with 3 car garage full of boxes of junk, 4 cars parked outside, a flatscreen TV in every room, every member of the family has their own laptop/computer, cell phone and a myriad of other electronics. There are at least two different console gaming systems (with dozens of games each) that get updated every other year (if not every year).

The "system" that exists has turned every family into a consumer of products that are 100% unnecessary while at the same time convincing said family that said products are 100% necessary.

Move the bar back down to the 1970's level of "success" and I think you'll find the current generation much closer to "success" than they currently feel.

 

[MChat]

Most of those drugs kill ambition and drive. But hey ADD & ADHD will prevent your kids from being successful if you dont put them on drugs.

These are the worst. Take truly gifted individuals, convince them that the reason they can't sit still isn't because they've already learned the lesson and are getting bored, but that its because there is something "wrong" with them. Use drugs to take away their ability to think outside the box and to think critically so that they'll be good little sheep for the system that will turn them into techno-garbage consuming wage slaves.

At the same time, we'll program them to think that the only way to succeed is a college education where the socialism evangelists they call professors (who make 400k+ / year) await to transform them (well away from the prying eyes & ears of the counter-thinking parents who would be able to prevent them) into wannabe socialistic conformers to the very system they purport to oppose.

And people wonder why depression, mental illness and suicide is on the rise.

 

[MChat]

It doesn't have to be that way. Live like you make less than you do, and life can be just fine.

Most people do not have the level of self control to do that though. Heck, most people live like they make more than they do. Living like that must be extremely stressful.

It is difficult to have "self-control" when you are programmed nearly from birth to be little more than a consumer of all the things society tells you that you should have in order to be "successful". And the system makes it easy for you to get in debt in order to "achieve" that success of having all of this junk without having to actually work for it; you'll just work on paying it off the rest of your life. Of course, you'll never actually pay it off, as there is always the newer, bigger, better thing that you just HAVE TO HAVE in order to be considered "successful".

It's your reward for being a good little cog in the machine.

 

[PoBoy84]

Don't discount that the world was a more dangerous place to grow up 40-50 years ago. The "boomers" and "gen-Xers" that made really bad decisions just aren't around to talk to anymore.

But I do get what you are saying. The level of "success" that boomers and gen-x achieved required less effort that it would today. However, I will also say that the "bar of success" has moved higher as well.

"Success" in the 50'-60's was a car in the driveway, a 3/2 or 4/2 house 1600-1800sq ft home, 2-4 healthy kids, a single "big" 16-19" TV, a console radio, one phone and nearly no other electronics except for small kitchen appliances.

"Success" in the 70's/80's was the same 1600-1800 sq ft home, but with a 2 car garage with 2 cars in it, a microwave in the kitchen, a VCR and an ATARI (with a dozen or less games) for that old console TV, a 2nd small TV for the kitchen a couple of "Walkman's" for the kids and a "rack" stereo system, and a couple of ATV's or dirt-bikes.

Fast forward to today and success is 2400+ sq ft home with 3 car garage full of boxes of junk, 4 cars parked outside, a flatscreen TV in every room, every member of the family has their own laptop/computer, cell phone and a myriad of other electronics. There are at least two different console gaming systems (with dozens of games each) that get updated every other year (if not every year).

The "system" that exists has turned every family into a consumer of products that are 100% unnecessary while at the same time convincing said family that said products are 100% necessary.

Move the bar back down to the 1970's level of "success" and I think you'll find the current generation much closer to "success" than they currently feel.

This is spot on. We have always been a "consumer" economy, but never like today. This is put well.

 

[u2slow]

I'm a software engineer with no degree; straight from high school into the military, straight from the military into IT/programming.
...
In summary, yes it can be a PITA getting past HR in order to get the interview, even with 25+ years of experience.

Larger companies (like mine) require the degree or certification they stipulate. Without it, you're ineligible. Not negotiable.

Not saying it's right... just be prepared for that outcome.

 

[BIG-O]

That's tough if all 5 kids go to 4yr college.

 

[MChat]

We should do more apprenticeship programs. You don't need to take olde english poetry to build bridges.

College needs to be restructured. It should be: spend 2 years learning everything you need to know about the actual job you're getting the education for in the first place. Then, if you want to "move up into management" you can spend the next 2 years taking "Olde English Poetry" and Philosophy 101 to get your "well rounded degree" that (supposedly) "makes you a better manager".

We've convinced generations of people that a college education is absolutely necessary to succeed only to overrun the colleges with students creating a supply and demand problem which makes a college education unobtainable without either incurring a massive amount of debt or spending twice as long "working your way through college". When in reality, most people would be more than successful to spend 1 year or two "learning the ropes" and then actually get out there and do the job without all of the BS "Olde English Poetry" classes.

 

[DRTDEVL]

Not here we don’t. I do all the hiring for my side of things and it’s that way across the board here . I don’t agree with it, but that’s how it is .

They even instituted a new national registry and database for tracking positive results.

Drug and Alcohol Clearinghouse

An online database that gives employers and government agencies real-time access to information about CDL driver drug and alcohol program violations.

clearinghouse.fmcsa.dot.gov

 

[IowaOffRoad]

Don't discount that the world was a more dangerous place to grow up 40-50 years ago. The "boomers" and "gen-Xers" that made really bad decisions just aren't around to talk to anymore.

But I do get what you are saying. The level of "success" that boomers and gen-x achieved required less effort that it would today. However, I will also say that the "bar of success" has moved higher as well.

"Success" in the 50'-60's was a car in the driveway, a 3/2 or 4/2 house 1600-1800sq ft home, 2-4 healthy kids, a single "big" 16-19" TV, a console radio, one phone and nearly no other electronics except for small kitchen appliances.

"Success" in the 70's/80's was the same 1600-1800 sq ft home, but with a 2 car garage with 2 cars in it, a microwave in the kitchen, a VCR and an ATARI (with a dozen or less games) for that old console TV, a 2nd small TV for the kitchen a couple of "Walkman's" for the kids and a "rack" stereo system, and a couple of ATV's or dirt-bikes.

Fast forward to today and success is 2400+ sq ft home with 3 car garage full of boxes of junk, 4 cars parked outside, a flatscreen TV in every room, every member of the family has their own laptop/computer, cell phone and a myriad of other electronics. There are at least two different console gaming systems (with dozens of games each) that get updated every other year (if not every year).

The "system" that exists has turned every family into a consumer of products that are 100% unnecessary while at the same time convincing said family that said products are 100% necessary.

Move the bar back down to the 1970's level of "success" and I think you'll find the current generation much closer to "success" than they currently feel.

I agree with this 100%

I would say our level of 'comforable is somewhere between the 60's and 80's definition, coupled with the fact that even in the 80's a 2 income household was getting to be the norm.

I'm not saying that I want to stay exactly where I'm at financially forever, but we are not living of the .gov or waiting for the first of the month to buy groceries. We have the internet, a TV, and several devices. Kids don't have the latest game consoles (nor do they play them on the regular). Wife has the newest vehicles in the fleet, and they've been 4th gen Chrysler minivans for the last 8 years. We have been taking semi-annual vacations but stick to a pretty reasonable budget.
While we may not live in the material extravagance of many of our contemporaries, we try to live a full life.

Larger companies (like mine) require the degree or certification they stipulate. Without it, you're ineligible. Not negotiable.

Not saying it's right... just be prepared for that outcome.

If your company follows a European model that is going to be tough to break. The rule makers try to establish the same credential incentive structure that justifies their own position. The culture there is one of unions and guilds, you can't go against their dictates.
In the US, that is in the process of changing because of the last few years, at least according to 'experts' who study such things. All in all, that's a net positive regardless of how you come down on this subject. Getting people in place who can 'do the job' is way better than leaving it open or hiring substandard people just because they 'check a box'.
Companies that reward performance outcomes will eventually bury those who 'check boxes'. It's inevitable, and if you are in a position to change their hiring practices you should do so, or find a company that incentivizes that.

 

[MChat]

Larger companies (like mine) require the degree or certification they stipulate. Without it, you're ineligible. Not negotiable.

Not saying it's right... just be prepared for that outcome.

Don't care. I wouldn't work for a company that is that stringent about degrees. Companies like that also want to measure software developer productivity by counting lines of code.

Companies that reward performance outcomes will eventually bury those who 'check boxes'. It's inevitable, and if you are in a position to change their hiring practices you should do so, or find a company that incentivizes that.

And this is another reason not to work for companies that have ridiculous hiring requirements. They will always focus on checking boxes rather than being successful. I'd rather work for a smaller company where the company's success is more important than checking boxes.

 

[Leadfoot21]

They even instituted a new national registry and database for tracking positive results.

Drug and Alcohol Clearinghouse

An online database that gives employers and government agencies real-time access to information about CDL driver drug and alcohol program violations.

clearinghouse.fmcsa.dot.gov

CDL drivers are the ONLY ones still tested . I assume that’s what that is for? I didn’t click on it .

 

[Priest]

Yes, and I have a few guys that work for me who do just that too. Choose your geography and trade accordingly.

 

[rockota]

Don't discount that the world was a more dangerous place to grow up 40-50 years ago. The "boomers" and "gen-Xers" that made really bad decisions just aren't around to talk to anymore.

But I do get what you are saying. The level of "success" that boomers and gen-x achieved required less effort that it would today. However, I will also say that the "bar of success" has moved higher as well.

"Success" in the 50'-60's was a car in the driveway, a 3/2 or 4/2 house 1600-1800sq ft home, 2-4 healthy kids, a single "big" 16-19" TV, a console radio, one phone and nearly no other electronics except for small kitchen appliances.

"Success" in the 70's/80's was the same 1600-1800 sq ft home, but with a 2 car garage with 2 cars in it, a microwave in the kitchen, a VCR and an ATARI (with a dozen or less games) for that old console TV, a 2nd small TV for the kitchen a couple of "Walkman's" for the kids and a "rack" stereo system, and a couple of ATV's or dirt-bikes.

Fast forward to today and success is 2400+ sq ft home with 3 car garage full of boxes of junk, 4 cars parked outside, a flatscreen TV in every room, every member of the family has their own laptop/computer, cell phone and a myriad of other electronics. There are at least two different console gaming systems (with dozens of games each) that get updated every other year (if not every year).

The "system" that exists has turned every family into a consumer of products that are 100% unnecessary while at the same time convincing said family that said products are 100% necessary.

Move the bar back down to the 1970's level of "success" and I think you'll find the current generation much closer to "success" than they currently feel.

you forgot golfcarts... and all of it on credit.

 

[Sandy Johnson]

you forgot golfcarts... and all of it on credit.

AND chuck that charcoal weber for a traeger, and heaven forbid you're getting cold drinks out of a coleman when you're grilling. That's for chumps, a yeti is clearly necessary.

 

[45acp]

AND chuck that charcoal weber for a traeger, and heaven forbid you're getting cold drinks out of a coleman when you're grilling. That's for chumps, a yeti is clearly necessary.

I used to get made fun of on the trail for having a cooler that cost 50% of what my crawler was worth, so steps were taken to mask my wealth-

 

[IowaOffRoad]

I used to get made fun of on the trail for having a cooler that cost 50% of what my crawler was worth, so steps were taken to mask my wealth-

I need to take a picture of my "Sasquatch" cooler.

Some kinda brand of 60's metal-clad cooler from an auction with rubber latches from the hardware store.
No, it doesn't stay as cool as a yeti but lid doesn't fly open either.

 

[Krazykiller]

Yes ged and no problems but I cheated only 1 kid that's mine. Wife's kid is out of the house and married with her own kids. My job I'm the youngest (41)but one of the most senior guys here.

 

[Treefrog]

As someone starting their career, leading edge of gen z, it can be done. But I don't think it's as easy as it was for my dad in the 80s. And will be significantly harder for for any kids I have.

Biggest issue is cost of existing increases. Phone, phone bill, computer, internet, ect. Next biggest issue is housing availability. When my grandfather entered the workplace, him and the other new hire engineers were told what to expect pretty early on. They could expect to work until 60-62, retire, and die 2 years later. He's in his mid 80s and still owns his house. And each following generation will hold out even longer. Florida is suffering a lot from this right now. Young buyers are competing against older buyers with equity and cash.

I think the next few years will really change the answer for those my age. The incoming crash is going to almost wipe out a lot of the excess lifestyle industries when people are forced to watch their spending. And do a significant number on the parts of businesses like HR and multi level management. More people needing jobs, not just looking for a better job is going to hurt employees bad.

I agree with not looking at success stories, look at the averages. The average person joining the workforce isn't looking 10-60 years out and taking steps today. They are browsing Door Dash trying to figure out what's for dinner.

 

[holdmypocket]

No degree, make the same as the other nerds in my position that have computer science degrees. I AM a few years older than some but have zero debt/school loans and I’ve had a lot of fun. They have families and are doing fine.

 

[DannyK]

It is difficult to have "self-control" when you are programmed nearly from birth to be little more than a consumer of all the things society tells you that you should have in order to be "successful". And the system makes it easy for you to get in debt in order to "achieve" that success of having all of this junk without having to actually work for it; you'll just work on paying it off the rest of your life. Of course, you'll never actually pay it off, as there is always the newer, bigger, better thing that you just HAVE TO HAVE in order to be considered "successful".

It's your reward for being a good little cog in the machine.

It starts with the parents. Break the cycle.

 

[DMG]

I agree you can make good money in the trades but that money usually either comes with long hours, travel or aren't good for your health long term. Lots of people wind up with rocky marriages because they work 60hr/wk or wind up looking for a career change around 50-something. If you're doing office bullshit you can do that until you retire and not put in more than 40hr for most of it.


We're not normal. Literally everyone here is already engaged in a high-work, potentially high-travel, high-expense hobby. IBB is not a cross section of society.

Everyone has their anecdote about success but what's the ratio of success to just getting by? Nobody is gonna pop in with an anecdote about someone who isn't making it.

I hear that about the trades but the fact is that if you take care of yourself, dont get too fat and exercise regularly it isnt bad. I can out hike/run/etc most of my white collar friends. Many of whom have knee or back problems. Sitting in an office can be as bad for you as working in a trade.

 

[Bonanza]

Are you being obtuse? I suggested nothing of the sort.

If you want a law degree you can work your way through law school as thousands of people have done. Maybe not Harvard Law, but you can do it.

A law degree is a business investment. If you are going to invest 300k in your business, you had better be sure that you will get a proper return on that investment. It does not appear that you are.

I have been to law school. I graduated, passed the bar, and have been a practicing attorney for over 10 years. I'm barred in state and federal court. I have certificates of recognition by the CA legislature and assembly for outstanding work in my field.

I appreciate your learned assessment and have taken it to heart. Is there any advice you can offer on how to fix my life?

 

[Bonanza]

Go look at how the data is compared. One of the biggest is showing the cost of housing vs dollar value of then and now. The average house then vs now are worlds apart.

“Boomers” typically lived in small homes. Around here, the homes of that era were 900-1500 sq ft.
That was a pretty common size across the board. They also in most cases purchased a home and lived in it for many many years, if not till death.

Homes today are 1500-3000 sq ft on average around here and people bounce from house to house all the time.

How do you logically compare the average cost of housing between these two?

I suppose the price for square foot then, adjusted for inflation now, qualified by the location?

Why Millennials Can’t Afford Homes: Housing Prices vs. Inflation

Housing prices have soared above the inflation rate – but what does this mean for consumers pursuing the American Dream?

anytimeestimate.com

"We found that home prices have rapidly increased over the last five decades, eclipsing the inflation rate by 150% since 1970. In fact, if home prices grew at the same rate as inflation since 1970, the median home price today would be just $177,788 – rather than $408,100."

The report also concludes millennials face a 31% higher home price to income ratio than a boomer in their 30s did.

I'm no finance expert, but I'm eager to read any literature that demonstrates I'm incorrect. I'm genuinely interested in this issue.

 

[crispins]

this is not a simple answer question.

It depends on the person, my very first real job after dropping out of high school I was making close to $100k a year.

I got into sales and found I was awesome at it.

As many here know, I made multi millions and fucked it all off.

Now 15 years later, I am about to do it again, all on a 9th grade education.

Ambition and drive are my skills, the rest I research and 'fake it till I make it'

Anyone who talks to me, they may not think I am highly educated but they also would never suspect that I have no actual education.

Also an interesting fact about me, I have been fired from almost every job I have ever had.

I am kinda fucked in the head, so my path isn't normal but it is what is possible.

My answer is it is 100% possible but you have to take some risks to make it happen.

Working a safe easy job, no not very possible. IMO