Cooling Fan Tech

[CarterKraft]

Griffin worked well on my old buggy.
Problem with my kids is when they start throwing rocks and makeshift spears and miss and punch a hole in the core. I’m at mad max level.

I bet you could build an awesome set of shutters

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

I ordered the American Cooling Solutions OC-72
Core size 31.8” x 16” x 2.6”
Ebay was $740 delivered in a week with no shroud
As of now I might run the surface mount SPAL 16" that most every U4 car runs, mine are brushless 300W but most use the brushed version which has about the same peak performance but minus the smart brushless control. Paired with a shallow shroud so I can shoe horn it in.
The drop in SPAL 14" 500W brushless fans that I have now need a thicker shroud in the corners and space is tight with the larger radiator. It really comes down to how fancy one wants to get with the shroud. The depth of the fan motor to core is about the same on both but you can cheat on the shroud depth with a surface mount were as the drop in requires full shroud depth if its a box shape VS a tapered shroud which would be cool.
I might do some destructive tests on the pile of crap core before it gets recycled.

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

I bet you could build an awesome set of shutters

Most underrated mod for SHTF.

 

[Bebop]

Griffin worked well on my old buggy.
Problem with my kids is when they start throwing rocks and makeshift spears and miss and punch a hole in the core. I’m at mad max level.

Time to throw the kids out

 

[arse_sidewards]

Notice the difference in the turbo air core tube thickness vs the water core.
None of these pictures are of the same, just showing differences.

Intercoolers have had fins inside since forever. Only recently did water shit start getting them too. Has to do with gas vs liquid heat transfer shit that I never bothered to learn.

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

Damage

 

[CarterKraft]

Pretty damn tough really

Bonus points for ax and Crocs

 

[gt1guy]

Looks like it was shot with ceramic balls first.

Seems those things can take a beating.

 

[CarterKraft]

Air soft was what I was thinking

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

Slingshot with rocks
Red Ryder
Air soft
Wooden spear
Sledge
Axe
Only the axe did enough damage to open the tubes. Way stronger than I thought.

 

[CarterKraft]

Slingshot with rocks
Red Ryder
Air soft
Wooden spear
Sledge
Axe
Only the axe did enough damage to open the tubes. Way stronger than I thought.

Can you point me in a direction of how you mathed that cores heat rejection?

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

From earlier in the thread:
The stock 6.0 water pump should flow 20GPM at 2000RPM and 66GPM at 6000RPM
A common radiator core size is similar to the MA232 which should remove 196,000BTU/Hr. at 140ETD at 20GPM and 245,000 BTU/Hr. at 140ETD at 66GPM which is equivalent to 77-96HP. 140ETD means 220 degree fluid entering with 80 degree ambient air cooling the radiator.

The following graph is the performance curve of Thermal Transfer cores which are identical to a lot of the race coolers being fabricated. Keep in mind this is for oil which does not transfer as well as water. Water can transfer 2X what oil can do.

Keep in mind the continuous HP vs peak HP. Desert trucks run massive coolers because they are always on the throttle making heat for hours on end. Rock bouncers can have the same or more HP but they only use that power for short bursts in minutes and the system can recover. That's why you don't see quad 16" fans and square yard cores on bouncers.

Here is a HP curve for the new radiator OC-72 I ordered. Keep in mind the ETD should be closer to 140* instead of the 100* which is more common for oil. If you crunch numbers you will see that both graphs have similar ratings as they use similar cores and testing specs.

 

[CarterKraft]

From earlier in the thread:
The stock 6.0 water pump should flow 20GPM at 2000RPM and 66GPM at 6000RPM
A common radiator core size is similar to the MA232 which should remove 196,000BTU/Hr. at 140ETD at 20GPM and 245,000 BTU/Hr. at 140ETD at 66GPM which is equivalent to 77-96HP. 140ETD means 220 degree fluid entering with 80 degree ambient air cooling the radiator.

The following graph is the performance curve of Thermal Transfer cores which are identical to a lot of the race coolers being fabricated. Keep in mind this is for oil which does not transfer as well as water. Water can transfer 2X what oil can do.

Keep in mind the continuous HP vs peak HP. Desert trucks run massive coolers because they are always on the throttle making heat for hours on end. Rock bouncers can have the same or more HP but they only use that power for short bursts in minutes and the system can recover. That's why you don't see quad 16" fans and square yard cores on bouncers.

Here is a HP curve for the new radiator OC-72 I ordered. Keep in mind the ETD should be closer to 140* instead of the 100* which is more common for oil. If you crunch numbers you will see that both graphs have similar ratings as they use similar cores and testing specs.

So really you need to be using a core with data or knowledge a comparable core to extract the data from.

I wanted to math my radiator in my drag car but using a "all-star" Taiwan universal radiator I'm probably on my own.

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

From the steering / trans cooler thread:
Tested some Trans / Oil coolers.

To interpret the data look at the Delta# this is how much the fluid cooled in °F per pass.
Notice how the test was done with water and had better performance than the OEM test with oil.
The Deralle has thinner tubes than the MA series. I would use this data when comparing to the thinner water only cores.

Deralle 9000 21 row

Derale Cooling Products 13615 Derale 9000 Series Fin and Plate Transmission Coolers | Summit Racing​

Free Shipping - Derale 9000 Series Fin and Plate Transmission Coolers with qualifying orders of $109. Shop Fluid Coolers at Summit Racing.
www.summitracing.com

Thermal Transfer MA4

Data:
78 F Ambient air for all tests
I used tap water for testing not oil

MA4
VA109-ABL321P/N-109A/SH 12V 10" Spal Brushless
4.5 GPM
144 F IN
138 F OUT
Delta 6
Equates to 12,000 BTU/hr with 60° ETD
Manufactures testing shows it should be around 15,000 BTU/hr with 100° ETD with oil

MA has 8.5” x 8” core = 68 square inches
12,000 / 68 = 176 BTU/HR/SQIN factor of cooling

DERALLE 9000 21 Row 13615
VA109-ABL321P/N-109A/SH 12V 10" Spal Brushless
3.65 GPM
141 F IN
131 F OUT
Delta 10
Equates to 15,000 BTU/hr with 63° ETD
Manufactures testing shows it should be around 15,000 BTU/hr with 100° ETD with oil

DERALLE 9000 21 has 11” x 8” core = 88 square inches
15,000 / 88 = 170 BTU/HR/SQIN factor of cooling


The American Cooling Solutions OC-72
Core size 31.8” x 16” x 2.6” is similar construction to the MA series
ACS chart shows 67HP at 100ETD for oil
67 HP = 170,515 BTU/HR

Using MA4 test with water factor 174BTU/HR
31.8” x 16” = 509 SQIN x 174 BTU/HR
88,530 BTU/HR at 60 ETD
147,550 BTU/HR at 100ETD

Using MA232 chart with oil
150,000 BTU/HR at 100ETD

Oil ETD is common around 100° as oil should not get as hot as water.
Water is going to be closer to 135° ETD so an average of 150,000 is going to be around 202,500 BTU/HR or 80HP

I still think the water vs oil is going to have more performance which didn’t show up in the water test in the MA4 but that was at a much smaller scale core.

 

[gt1guy]

The radiator has a steam port up top that returns to the surge tank. The engine steam ports also return to the surge tank. The surge tank is on the low pressure side.

I've read this about 10 times and it has me thinking about what I have.

My steam port in the radiator sits below the port that runs to the surge tank. Which seems like a good idea. But, due to the angle of the radiator there's a lot of room for steam (and I guess eventually air) to get trapped up at the top, above the surge tank port.

Running the steam line coming from the engine to the surge tank sounds like a great idea. Will also be doing the vacuum fill.

My question is, how much better off will I be by moving the steam vent port on the radiator to the very top of the side tank and plug the port that's there now?

With the steam port system (4 way) on the engine running directly to the ssurge tank, how much random steam bubbles are left to build up in the radiator?

This is actually a custom C&R radiator so the only way I want to fuck with it is if I'm being dumb not to.

 

[bdkw1]

I've read this about 10 times and it has me thinking about what I have.

My steam port in the radiator sits below the port that runs to the surge tank. Which seems like a good idea. But, due to the angle of the radiator there's a lot of room for steam (and I guess eventually air) to get trapped up at the top, above the surge tank port.

Running the steam line coming from the engine to the surge tank sounds like a great idea. Will also be doing the vacuum fill.

My question is, how much better off will I be by moving the steam vent port on the radiator to the very top of the side tank and plug the port that's there now?

With the steam port system (4 way) on the engine running directly to the ssurge tank, how much random steam bubbles are left to build up in the radiator?

This is actually a custom C&R radiator so the only way I want to fuck with it is if I'm being dumb not to.

I've had to put bleeders in the high points of systems before. Even with zacuum bleeders they were a bitch. Crack the bleeder, wait for the air to stop coming out and your good to go. You may be able to add a bleeder valve to the high point in the radiator. Steam vent should go to the surge tank.

 

[CarterKraft]

Do you have a surge tank or are you calling the rad end tank the surge tank?

 

[mobil1syn]

add a -3an fitting with a cap in the upper corner of the tank at a min, you will thank yourself later.

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

You want steam lines or purge valves at the highest points throughout the system.
The surge tank should be connected to the low pressure side heater port on the water pump. Doing so will allow high pressure steam port lines to flow to the low pressure surge tank.
On my old Griffin slanted back, I made a steam snorkel inside the radiator. Used a 1/4” compression fitting drilled through 1/4” with a copper tube that went through the whole thing and up to the top point. Once NPT fitting was threaded in, I tightened the compression nut. Connected a 1/4” hose to what was sticking out and that went to the surge tank. Add a brake flare or bubble bump to the 1/4” line to help hold it on.

 

[gt1guy]

Do you have a surge tank or are you calling the rad end tank the surge tank?

I have a surge tank. The system has to run a surge tank, that's where that rad cap is. The radiator only has the ports shown in that picture and a -24an lower hose just out of the picture. There's also a overflow tank that will be plumbed into the surge tank neck port, which should also siphon back water when things cool down.

add a -3an fitting with a cap in the upper corner of the tank at a min, you will thank yourself later.

That would be easy enough to do.

You want steam lines or purge valves at the highest points throughout the system.
The surge tank should be connected to the low pressure side heater port on the water pump. Doing so will allow high pressure steam port lines to flow to the low pressure surge tank.
On my old Griffin slanted back, I made a steam snorkel inside the radiator. Used a 1/4” compression fitting drilled through 1/4” with a copper tube that went through the whole thing and up to the top point. Once NPT fitting was threaded in, I tightened the compression nut. Connected a 1/4” hose to what was sticking out and that went to the surge tank. Add a brake flare or bubble bump to the 1/4” line to help hold it on.

I have 2 side ports at the top of the surge tank that are higher than any other part of the system. Was thinking of feeding the steam vent line from the engine into one of those. Sounds like that will be fine.

Right now I have a -8 running from the bottom of the surge tank to the radiator. But the way you say to plumb it makes sense, although I got questions.

I know the rear heater port is "out" and the front port is "in". Would it be safe to assume that the front port is the low pressure side of the two? Or are they both on the low pressure side? Yes, I'm that dumb.
I am also running a heater, so both ports will be in use. A "T" fitting going to the surge tank will be ok?

Now how would plumbing the surge tank that way affect the rad cap? Or are we only talking a difference of a pound or two between high/low sides?

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

This is how I am plumbed.
Surge tank to heater line is 1/2”
Steam lines are 1/4”
Radiator lines are -20

 

[CarterKraft]

This is how I am plumbed.
Surge tank to heater line is 1/2”
Steam lines are 1/4”
Radiator lines are -20

With the rad cap being the highest point in the system that would seem to be really hard to air bubble?
Before the leaking, did you figure out why it was getting hot?

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

I have a surge tank. The system has to run a surge tank, that's where that rad cap is. The radiator only has the ports shown in that picture and a -24an lower hose just out of the picture. There's also an overflow tank that will be plumbed into the surge tank neck port, which should also siphon back water when things cool down.

I have 2 side ports at the top of the surge tank that are higher than any other part of the system. Was thinking of feeding the steam vent line from the engine into one of those. Sounds like that will be fine.

Right now I have a -8 running from the bottom of the surge tank to the radiator. But the way you say to plumb it makes sense, although I got questions.

I know the rear heater port is "out" and the front port is "in". Would it be safe to assume that the front port is the low pressure side of the two? Or are they both on the low pressure side? Yes, I'm that dumb.
I am also running a heater, so both ports will be in use. A "T" fitting going to the surge tank will be ok?

Now how would plumbing the surge tank that way affect the rad cap? Or are we only talking a difference of a pound or two between high/low sides?

I would put a tee on the water pump heater front Inlet. One to surge. One to heater core.
Most of the cap pressure is going to be from heat expansion not flow restriction pressure.

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

With the rad cap being the highest point in the system that would seem to be really hard to air bubble?
Before the leaking, did you figure out why it was getting hot?

I didn’t feel like tearing into the system twice to fix the radiator then the possible thermostat issue.
Going to install the new radiator and thermostat delete at the same time.
Planning to add a tee with a purge valve at the steam port on the radiator since the 1/4” steam line is so long going back to the surge tank. I want to pull the steam line off going back to the surge tank to verify it has flow.
My old buggy was plumbed the exact same way and it worked great so I don’t think it’s a concept problem, it could be thermostat, distance, line size, or double pass restriction.

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

A thermostat and a smart sensor variable speed fan on a remote radiator can be very wasteful as I found out.
Fans can waste a lot of energy while accomplishing nothing because the thermostat is holding back.
Allowing the fans to control the temperature eliminates the need for a thermostat.
With no vehicle speed forced air the radiator doesn’t work until the fans turn on. So warmup is still possible without a thermostat.

 

[CarterKraft]

A thermostat and a smart sensor variable speed fan on a remote radiator can be very wasteful as I found out.
Fans can waste a lot of energy while accomplishing nothing because the thermostat is holding back.
Allowing the fans to control the temperature eliminates the need for a thermostat.
With no vehicle speed forced air the radiator doesn’t work until the fans turn on. So warmup is still possible without a thermostat.

I'm not really understanding that though.
Wouldn't that just mean the set points of the fan control or thermostat are not in agreement?

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

I'm not really understanding that though.
Wouldn't that just mean the set points of the fan control or thermostat are not in agreement?

The thermostat should be wide open before the fans ever turn on. Otherwise the thermostat is holding back the fans.
So one could run a 160° thermostat to make sure it’s wide open.
Problem is if the radiator and fans work too well the cold returning water temp will try to close the thermostat and restrict flow while the fans are still running and waste energy.
The thermostat is going to have a lag to open and close and fight the fans.
Let the fans control the temperature and there is no need or purpose for the thermostat.
Eliminate a failure point and restriction.

 

[gt1guy]

This is how I am plumbed.
Surge tank to heater line is 1/2”
Steam lines are 1/4”
Radiator lines are -20

I would put a tee on the water pump heater front Inlet. One to surge. One to heater core.
Most of the cap pressure is going to be from heat expansion not flow restriction pressure.

Awesome. I can do all that. Thank you.

Instead of a bleeder at the highest point of the rad, I should have room to install a bung like so, and run that to the surge tank.

 

[Bebop]

I've seen multiple KOH winner with the steam port plumbed in the upper part of the water pump.
That's why mine is done that way.

Has never been a problem.

Y'all might be over-thinking this.

 

[CarterKraft]

The thermostat should be wide open before the fans ever turn on. Otherwise the thermostat is holding back the fans.
So one could run a 160° thermostat to make sure it’s wide open.
Problem is if the radiator and fans work too well the cold returning water temp will try to close the thermostat and restrict flow while the fans are still running and waste energy.
The thermostat is going to have a lag to open and close and fight the fans.
Let the fans control the temperature and there is no need or purpose for the thermostat.
Eliminate a failure point and restriction.

Maybe temp sender for fans should be in the radiator?

I put my temp sender in the same cavity as the thermostat but my rad is not remote.