NSFW Charles Murray, Richard Lynn, Tatu Vanhanen and the difficulty in finding data on a censored internet

[plym49.2]

I don't think the answer to any of this is one or even just a few dimensional. What about environment, for example? Populations that developed where the climate was temperate and food readily available and requirements for shelters are minimal have very different external pressures than populations that develop where the climate is Extreme, food is scarce, and the need for shelter immense.

 

[Ranchtruck]

I saw an interview with Jordan Peterson who said IQ tests are some of the easiest to develop that produce very accurate results. He said the data is clear. We just cant talk about it because people are offended by the results.

I have a hard time believing anyone as confident & sanctimonious in their beliefs like Peterson is. Just like a church preacher, he's selling you his answers as truth. Instantly puts up red flags in my mind.

 

[rockota]

I have a hard time believing anyone as confident & sanctimonious in their beliefs like Peterson is. Just like a church preacher, he's selling you his answers as truth. Instantly puts up red flags in my mind.

But is he wrong?

 

[Thumping]

Over the years I have observed a few things. One being, everyone has their own realm of expertise and everyone is ignorant depending on the subject. If there is a discussion that is outside of your realm, then you have to take someone else's knowledge as being correct. Now if that discussion drifts over into your realm, then you find out exactly who is full of shit and thusly, you can assume they are as full of shit on matters outside of your realm.

 

[IowaOffRoad]

But is he wrong?

With regard to JBP, he has said this several times to defend his position: "I'm not sure that what I think is true, but I know it's opposite is false". That leaves a lot of room for him to be wrong or have his thoughts changed, but take promoting family structure: maybe his reasons why it's good are incorrect, but we know that the opposite of what he promotes has born much ill fruit.

Ranchtruck I've listened to a lot of JBP, and if you think he's full of himself you must have either digested the hit pieces compiled with his sound bites or maybe just caught him doing hostile media. Or maybe you're just a cynical SOB

 

[ev13wt]

When they say "white people made the IQ test" then that does have merit. It's a scale tailored to our modern western ways of thinking and doing.
It is a meter of adaptability for other "ways" of living.

The white people turned out to have the most twirly moral compass, and are happy to twirl it for money and/or power.

In essence, the white "race" (sorry) turned out to be the most ruthless motherfuckers out there. Not ruthless in physical power (all humans are pretty good at that), but ruthless in tricks and games of the mind.

This propelled them to the top of the "race" food chain.

So I see it like this: people in colder climates had to learn a lot of patience and rationing. They learned to better control their emotions - and at some point learned to influence them for benefit. Like all children do...
It was winter. Shit was hard. If you had an argument about something, it would be very wise for all involved to stop before everyone freezes to death because of wounds or whatever,
Communities learned to help themselves in these times. Foresight, planning, and management of stock. Predicting over time the results that were needed to survive.

In warm countries - if hungry you pick fruit and then you aren't hungry. There is no need to develop any of the above skills.


Asians are just better at our own game. But there is a component missing to be on the top. I do think it's the moral compass thing.
Everyone else sucks at it. For various reasons.

If "black people" would have lived in the cold north - they would be like "us" - but they would be white too...

The color of the skin is completely irrelevant.


That said, each race has highly intelligent people that understand to manipulate their bodies and feelings. White people on average are better than that.

There IS a measurable level where I think it is not possible for people to understand what "thinking outside the box" is. And they cannot ever learn. They feel and act on the feeling. With practice, they blend in. But they are the people fighting at KOH. (joke) They are the groupthink idiots that just run with whatever their group says or does (democrats like republicans, no difference both have too many "blind followers").

Thinking is not allowed. It is not taught. Either you get taught by your parents, or you aren't.

 

[fordguy]

Public schools don't have time to F with smart kids.

Saw that early and bailed the fuck outa there as soon as i could. They also said eating pencil lead wasnt normal. Fools.

 

[ev13wt]

I think that kids early on before and after starting school with what people would call mental health issues, like ADHD etc, and then drugging them kills the real potential they were gifted with. Maybe they can’t focus on reading or can’t set still in class, they will find a way to use their minds in doing remarkable things that the focused kids can’t do. Imagination or day dreamers survived long before drugs to dull their senses ever came available.

The conformity to this current system "democratic (lol) capitalism" is too strong. Rather have "workers" than "thinkers".

 

[ev13wt]

So success isn't about IQ, but instead conformity to outside forces?

Feels kinda cargo-culty

High IQ / high emotional IQ can hinder a good sales pitch... If you realize you are ripping people off basically, then how can you keep doing it? If you are too dumb to realize any of this, you keep going and become "sucessful" - and that only means you can play THIS game well.

 

[Thumping]

The conformity to this current system "democratic (lol) capitalism" is too strong. Rather have "workers" than "thinkers".

And you think socialism and or communism is the opposite?

See, thats what I meant that everyone is ignorant...depending on the subject.

 

[ev13wt]

You know none of this is going to matter in a couple years when people can jack their brain into the google.

If your not jacked in you wont be able to even have a conversation with those that are and with AI

Unfortunately, this is probably 99.99999% accurate.

 

[[486]]

And you don't think race impacts the culture? Why not just combine race and culture and you're right back to square one.

For all of our faults, the foundational document of the pinnacle of the west (us, of course) doesn't require a point of origin or a preferred religion in order for one to receive the benefits. All it requires is an adherence to principles and, hopefully, with that an understanding of what lays at the base of them. If all people of all races came here and didn't do one thing to adopt our culture, the US would have fragmented into the Balkans a century and a half ago.

Not calling anyone a nazi or anything, but that's one of the defining splits between nazi-socialism and "other/older" socialism

The 'other' socialist extorts those of other groups but pretends to be capable of acting altruistically to all of those under its umbrella. The 'nazi' socialist has grown beyond that, to the point of being open about their planning only for the benefit of one group. There's a reason that both schools of socialism kinda grew outta germany, but one came after the other.

 

[[486]]

You know none of this is going to matter in a couple years when people can jack their brain into the google.

If your not jacked in you wont be able to even have a conversation with those that are and with AI

well that hopefully bridges the gap in understanding that we've got interpersonally causing all of our strife now

the bandwidth of language and such is a barrier to understanding the struggle of others
through direct mind-communication maybe we'd be able to share a lifetime of experience in a data packet, would make discussion much easier to have

 

[ev13wt]

My son is like this. We had him IQ tested, but yiu didn't need the number to gauge his intelligence. It's obvious when he speaks he's on a different level than the adult he's speaking to. He had every country in the world memorized in alphabetical order before he was 3. Eary teachers wanted him on meds. Now they know him well, but some still despise him because he can't stop himself from correcting them if he notices an error in something their teaching. Public schools don't have time to F with smart kids.

Start explaining why he won't have friends like other kids, won't like the things other kids like, and that he will receive constant backlash and bullying..
One thing to keep him from hating everyone is to explain that there ARE people like him. 99.x percentile? If he meets 500 people, chances are none of those will understand him at all.

There are about 40 to 100 million people as smart or smarter than him. He must have this information if he hasn't figured it out by himself.

 

[[486]]

High IQ / high emotional IQ can hinder a good sales pitch... If you realize you are ripping people off basically, then how can you keep doing it? If you are too dumb to realize any of this, you keep going and become "sucessful" - and that only means you can play THIS game well.

that's why positions of power select so harshly for the 'morally bankrupt'

and why I see the formation of artificial power structures as 'the' problem above and before anything else

 

[ev13wt]

And you think socialism and or communism is the opposite?

See, thats what I meant that everyone is ignorant...depending on the subject.

I don't see a difference between capitalism and communism.
I think we would score badly on a communism-biased IQ test.

I wouldn't take the conversation to that point here.

And you are completely correct about everyone being ignorant about something. I'm taking that.

 

[fordguy]

If you realize you are ripping people off basically, then how can you keep doing it?

x1000

 

[[486]]

The conformity to this current system "democratic (lol) capitalism" is too strong. Rather have "workers" than "thinkers".

To poke at this in a less confrontational manner than thumping did...
Capitalism can mean many things, please explain further what aspect you're ridiculing.

If you're implying that naturally formed monopolies are the thing to fear, I'd argue that state protected monopolies are many times more oppressive and stronger in every way.

 

[Animalmother]

I have a hard time believing anyone as confident & sanctimonious in their beliefs like Peterson is. Just like a church preacher, he's selling you his answers as truth. Instantly puts up red flags in my mind.

Thats funny right there.

Maybe he can be less confident in his area of expertise to be more convincing

 

[scooter2374]

WTF does this have to do with me.

 

[rockota]

Thats funny right there.

Maybe he can be less confident in his area of expertise to be more convincing

mean tweets!

 

[ev13wt]

that's why positions of power select so harshly for the 'morally bankrupt'

and why I see the formation of artificial power structures as 'the' problem above and before anything else

Could you define "artificial power structures" for me? I'm not getting it

I have a hard time believing anyone as confident & sanctimonious in their beliefs like Peterson is. Just like a church preacher, he's selling you his answers as truth. Instantly puts up red flags in my mind.

He is creating a need to sell you his book. That is all he is doing. And being about Jesus is a good thing, lot's of people in that target demographic.

 

[[486]]

WTF does this have to do with me.

rofl
the disclaimer he spat out has everything to do with you grendel and flecker specifically

 

[[486]]

Could you define "artificial power structures" for me? I'm not getting it

That's a difficult one to articulate, man...

Arbitrary power over another rather than defined and agreed upon power over another

"naturally earned power" doesn't really fit because of how corrupt states always 'earn' their tyrannical power in their own ruthless way...

 

[ev13wt]

To poke at this in a less confrontational manner than thumping did...
Capitalism can mean many things, please explain further what aspect you're ridiculing.

If you're implying that naturally formed monopolies are the thing to fear, I'd argue that state protected monopolies are many times more oppressive and stronger in every way.

Schools are historically meant to produce workers. Friedrich Wilhelm I. introduced compulsory school attendance in 1717. He thought that it would make for good subserviants.
The plan was to educate them "just enough" to function well as workers, but not so well that they would start asking questions.
Before this, only rich kids were educated, via private lessons. Town schools weren't frequented by working-class children, as they had work to do.

This is a capitalistically motivated thing to me. Good workers know about their trade, can read, and do simple math. They should not learn to think for themselves, as it is too dangerous to the leading class. Always has been, and always will be.


So let's say we all grew up in an actual socialist country (Not Naziland). I am not sure the school systems there are for creating "free thinking self-learning" people either. It's probably filled with even more propaganda.


There were schools before that, of course. And they were "actual" schools. At least I think so. But all were for rich kids, or only rich kids attended them. In Egypt, 2100 bc, girls from age 5 were allowed to go to school. Just saying.

As someone said in this thread. College degrees are just KPIs for companies. You kinda know what you are getting.

So school was formed as an artificial power structure if I'm not getting it wrong.

 

[[486]]

Schools are historically meant to produce workers. Friedrich Wilhelm I. introduced compulsory school attendance in 1717. He thought that it would make for good subserviants.
The plan was to educate them "just enough" to function well as workers, but not so well that they would start asking questions.
Before this, only rich kids were educated, via private lessons. Town schools weren't frequented by working-class children, as they had work to do.

This is a capitalistically motivated thing to me. Good workers know about their trade, can read, and to simple math. They should not learn to think for themselves, as it is too dangerous to the leading class. Always has been, always will be.

But is that not a hallmark of arbitrary power?

A school that produces subpar minds would be less naturally able to sustain itself than one that produces great minds.
The good educators would naturally rise to the top if it weren't for someone deciding to hamstring the worker drones for their own good.

Naturally these 'better' institutions will not be able to accommodate all that demand to attend them, but that's just resource competition.

Unless you're also coming at it from a direction of denouncing the natural inequality of someone's starting point, in regard to the mobility provided by existing wealth... That's a whole different argument.

 

[[486]]

As someone said in this thread. College degrees are just KPIs for companies. You kinda know what you are getting.

So school was formed as an artificial power structure if I'm not getting it wrong.

That was me.

I look at it as systems of education having been perverted by those wielding arbitrary power, rather than being solely arising from it.
'Centralized school' rather than 'piecemeal education' is easy enough to look at in the light of the specialization of every industry that occurred around/before the industrial revolution.

ETA: The solution being a deregulation of the industry, allowing diffuse market demands to shape the landscape rather than the planned demands of those who are selected by governmental power.

 

[[486]]

Sorry iowa, I mighta fucked up your thread hahahahahahaha

 

[ev13wt]

That was me.

I look at it as systems of education having been perverted by those wielding arbitrary power, rather than being solely arising from it.
'Centralized school' rather than 'piecemeal education' is easy enough to look at in the light of the specialization of every industry that occurred around/before the industrial revolution.

ETA: The solution being a deregulation of the industry, allowing diffuse market demands to shape the landscape rather than the planned demands of those who are selected by governmental power.

I look to Plato and his ship of fools (ship of state) for this. The person in charge of education must be a philosopher, a person who has been educated from their earlier years to direct their choices by reason only and an unbiased search for the common good.

If you let education into the hands of the free market, you get what we have with colleges. Back step to "only the rich can get educated".
So I must disagree that the free market will "make good schools". Public schools in "bad" demographics are really bad - underfunded et cetera.

I am not sure which is worse, having an idiot in charge of curriculum, or an idiot with a need to own a yacht in charge of it.


Since putting philosophers in charge of leading positions is completely unrealistic as there aren't enough available, and think about the backlash with the general public - they would all be klilled.


If anyone is interested:

On Plato's Ship of State Analogy

There is the ship-owner, larger and stronger than everyone on the ship, but somewhat deaf and rather short-sighted, with a knowledge of sailing to match his eyesight. [1] The sailors are quarreling among themselves over captaincy of the ship, [2] each one thinking that he ought to be captain, [3]...

digressionsnimpressions.typepad.com

Imagine then a fleet or a ship in which there is a captain who is taller and stronger than any of the crew, but he is a little deaf and has a similar infirmity in sight, and his knowledge of navigation is not much better. The sailors are quarrelling with one another about the steering—everyone is of opinion that he has a right to steer, though he has never learned the art of navigation and cannot tell who taught him or when he learned, and will further assert that it cannot be taught, and they are ready to cut in pieces anyone who says the contrary. They throng about the captain, begging and praying him to commit the helm to them; and if at any time they do not prevail, but others are preferred to them, they kill the others or throw them overboard, and having first chained up the noble captain’s senses with drink or some narcotic drug, they mutiny and take possession of the ship and make free with the stores; thus, eating and drinking, they proceed on their voyage in such manner as might be expected of them. Him who is their partisan and cleverly aids them in their plot for getting the ship out of the captain’s hands into their own whether by force or persuasion, they compliment with the name of sailor, pilot, able seaman, and abuse the other sort of man, whom they call a good-for-nothing; but that the true pilot must pay attention to the year and seasons and sky and stars and winds, and whatever else belongs to his art, if he intends to be really qualified for the command of a ship, and that he must and will be the steerer, whether other people like or not the possibility of this union of authority with the steerer’s art has never seriously entered into their thoughts or been made part of their calling. Now in vessels which are in a state of mutiny and by sailors who are mutineers, how will the true pilot be regarded? Will he not be called by them a prater, a star-gazer, a good-for-nothing?

— Plato, The Republic, Book VI (The Philosophy of Government)

 

[PoBoy84]

Start explaining why he won't have friends like other kids, won't like the things other kids like, and that he will receive constant backlash and bullying..
One thing to keep him from hating everyone is to explain that there ARE people like him. 99.x percentile? If he meets 500 people, chances are none of those will understand him at all.

There are about 40 to 100 million people as smart or smarter than him. He must have this information if he hasn't figured it out by himself.

He is on such a level of self, and surroundings awareness that he knows. He figured this out himself when he was still in pre K, and confronted me about it when I picked him up one day. I wish folks on here could talk to him for a few minutes. He has several good friends, and his classmates seem to love him which is good, but he has to dumb himself down. He hates school, but has learned to get through it. He's 9 now, and his situational awareness is off the charts. It can be depressing when your 1st grader or whatever comes home after a few weeks at school with his head hung down, basically telling me the work they are learning he's known how to do for a long time, and he has nothing he can talk about to the other children because they all act like babies. This was KG I think. He has learned to mix OK, but inside he's not met anyone he can relate to, and likely won't for years. If there is something we can't figure out as a family, we ask him and he knows instantly. He also remembers every exact date and time he did anything ever, lol. He corrects us all the time about things we say. "No, that happened before lunch time on Dec 2nd 2017. Once he reads or sees something, he memorizes it instantly and retains it forever. Beats all the shit I've ever seen, like the movies or something. I don't know where he got it. I'm a pretty intelligent guy, but I don't have his makings by far.

But, as said above hear, it can be relative is some ways. He cannot ride a bicycle, and isn't the most coordinated person ever. He will never follow in my footsteps of playing all the sports, and being involved in extreme activities etc. He weighs the risk/reward for everything he does. I've got my fucking hands full with this one. All I have to teach him is life lessons, and common sense. He already knows the rest before I get a chance to teach him stuff by teaching himself. His brain works much faster than mine.