Brakes - Make better or start over?

[arse_sidewards]

My concern with the TDS system is that it uses stock hydroboost, and I wonder if it would impact my hydro steering. (PSC TC with An8 to steering valve, AN6 to ram). Im happy with my steering and dont want to mess it up. But the master seemed appropriately big for the Ford brakes.

BKOR has ported hydroboost unit, but looks like he mates it to the same wilwood master I have now, which is part of my limitation.

I've heard good things about Vanco, and I wonder if he would spec it all to my setup.

Any thoughts?

Run a flow divider so the hyrdoboost is the only thing on its circuit. Start with the minimum flow and dial it up until you're happy.

 

[Bebop]

My cutting brakes don't work all that well either. I rarely can lock up a tire. It certainly helps with a tight turn or front dig but not as well as I would like.

I'm sure your cutting brakes bore size and physical leverage have been carefully chosen and you didn't just throw together something hopping it would work...

BKOR has ported hydroboost unit, but looks like he mates it to the same wilwood master I have now, which is part of my limitation.

I've heard good things about Vanco, and I wonder if he would spec it all to my setup.

BKOR has my vote, I his HB very happily.

There are different wilwood masters with the same body and different bore sizes so before saying that your master is the same, make sure you're talking about the exact same P/N.

My concern with the TDS system is that it uses stock hydroboost, and I wonder if it would impact my hydro steering. (PSC TC with An8 to steering valve, AN6 to ram). Im happy with my steering and dont want to mess it up. But the master seemed appropriately big for the Ford brakes.

Run a flow divider so the hyrdoboost is the only thing on its circuit. Start with the minimum flow and dial it up until you're happy.

I run my ported BKOR hydroboost with a Radial Dynamics 6 GPM pump that I sing at high RPM frequently with no steering issues at all.

The HB flows enough so why mess with anything ??????

 

[Sterlingfire]

I wouldn't worry about the hb robbing your steering of pressure or flow. Like said above give it it's own circuit before getting to the orbital and you'll be gtg. A stock unit should be fine for how little weight it will be stopping, but i surely wouldn't argue against you spending money on the bkor kit. He seems pretty legit. I like the fact he started out small and is evolving into an icon in the industry IMO.
Also... maybe look into different cutting brakes(they also use bore sizes and handle throw to fit your system proper) if they don't work well, that or your rear calipers are under sized.

 

[Sterlingfire]

Also, could your stall speed be too low?

 

['84 Bronco II]

Desert and road ?

I thought we were talking about buggies.

I wheel/live in the desert and you have to cover some ground between trails Out west, a lot of trails don't come out near the tow rigs and it is a lot easier and quicker to hop on the road to get back to them (Moab is a prime example of this).

Uploaded to resources

Brake System Design by BillaVista v2

Updated the BillaVista brake system calculator with new user interface.

irate4x4.com

Please take a look and let me know if there are any issues. It's been a while since I tweaked it, and I know I compared to what BV's calc originally produced to verify operation. So if there was math error in the original, I likely duplicated it.

All credit for the math goes to BV.

I do think I'm moving to hydroboost after another weekend of wheeling.

I'll take a look at it when I have some time and compare it to the version of Billavista's calculator that I modified a while back. Thanks for sharing!

Going back to original comment, should the calc have a "Locked 4x4" mode that adjust to 50/50 split?

Yes if your primary concern is braking when your buggy is in four wheel drive or if you don't drive around in two wheel drive. Otherwise you need to estimate weight transfer to the front to try and size the front and rear circuits appropriately and fine tune rear lock up with a proportioning valve.

 

[Bebop]

I wheel/live in the desert and you have to cover some ground between trails Out west, a lot of trails don't come out near the tow rigs and it is a lot easier and quicker to hop on the road to get back to them (Moab is a prime example of this).

So you're saying that the Ultra4 cars are switching to 2WD when they hit the desert ? I think not.

As far as driving on the road, I am not giving any advice on this situation.

 

[JohnnyJ]

There are different wilwood masters with the same body and different bore sizes so before saying that your master is the same, make sure you're talking about the exact same P/N.





I run my ported BKOR hydroboost with a Radial Dynamics 6 GPM pump that I sing at high RPM frequently with no steering issues at all.

The HB flows enough so why mess with anything ??????

I’m running wilwood 1.125 that I bought from BKOR with his 9:1 reverse pedal. Looking at wilwood site, there is nothing bigger from them. I think I want something in the 1.25 to 1.375 range to get my hydraulic ratio happy.

Hearing you are running bigger pump with no steering issues makes me feel comfortable. I haven’t done this, and have seen “sky is falling” comments while researching and not sure how much credibility to give them.

Also, could your stall speed be too low?

I don’t think so based on previous experiences. I’m running a converter that claims to stall around 2200-2300 rpm with my LQ4. I noticed how much leg pressure and throw I needed at top of boulderdash where I was trying to stick to the side of a rock and I had to really stand on the pedal to hold, but on flat ground or other instances it isn’t bad other than pedal throw.

 

[Bebop]

I ended up installing a non-wilwood master cylinder on my rig. Bigger bore size.
Just a standard parts store one.

There are plenty of bore sizes available from GM ;)

Seriously, your steering will be fine and you'll love the brakes.

I've installed that kit on almost every single buggy in my riding group. Everybody loves it,

 

[arse_sidewards]

The HB flows enough so why mess with anything ??????

In that case then don't.

 

['84 Bronco II]

So you're saying that the Ultra4 cars are switching to 2WD when they hit the desert ? I think not.

As far as driving on the road, I am not giving any advice on this situation.

Some are and some aren't. Jesse Haines made a post a while back about how he felt 2WD with the rear locked gave the best handling for him in the desert, and I have seen others make similar comments, especially in 4600. Obviously guys like Jason Scherer who are running an SCS case don't.

I can tell you from personal experience that in four wheel drive the front and rear axles fight each other in the whoops and will get your vehicle bucking pretty good, especially if you have a lot of lash in your drivetrain. Being able to kick the rear out under power is also nice around turns. The only time I use 4 high is if I can't stay on top of the sand and the rear is spinning and the front is pushing too much.

 

[arse_sidewards]

There are plenty of bore sizes available from GM ;)

There's such a wide variety of OEM shit availible I'm surprised as many people run aftermarket master cylinders as they do (packaging problems notwithstanding).

 

[Bebop]

Some are and some aren't. Jesse Haines made a post a while back about how he felt 2WD with the rear locked gave the best handling for him in the desert, and I have seen others make similar comments, especially in 4600. Obviously guys like Jason Scherer who are running an SCS case don't.

I can tell you from personal experience that in four wheel drive the front and rear axles fight each other in the whoops and will get your vehicle bucking pretty good, especially if you have a lot of lash in your drivetrain. Being able to kick the rear out under power is also nice around turns. The only time I use 4 high is if I can't stay on top of the sand and the rear is spinning and the front is pushing too much.

That makes total sense and I agree with you.

But you're overthinking this when it comes to brakes.

2 masters, same size, no balance bar, works really well, in 2wd and 4wd.

There's such a wide variety of OEM shit availible I'm surprised as many people run aftermarket master cylinders as they do (packaging problems notwithstanding).

Agreed, but people like aftermarket bling shit.

 

[pennsylvaniaboy]

There's such a wide variety of OEM shit availible I'm surprised as many people run aftermarket master cylinders as they do (packaging problems notwithstanding).

Sooo I am down for a good stock application. I need a good master that will work with a d60/14bolt with stock calipers. Still running a vacuum booster

 

['84 Bronco II]

That makes total sense and I agree with you.

But you're overthinking this when it comes to brakes.

2 masters, same size, no balance bar, works really well, in 2wd and 4wd.



Agreed, but people like aftermarket bling shit.

I am not saying you have to get things perfectly sized/proportioned, but panic/emergency stops at speed in two wheel drive is what I am getting at. I think it is worthy of consideration if the vehicle is going to be used at higher speeds in two wheel drive. I agree with what you are saying but if your front to rear brake bias is way out of whack, things can get squirrely in two wheel drive under heavy braking. I had a rig that would lock the rears up really early, especially on dirt, and it sucked having to counter steer under moderate braking. Equal braking systems front and rear probably works fine for many rigs, but the more weight transfer your vehicle has on the front end (short wheel base, high COG, low anti-dive, soft springs, etc.) the more brake proportioning matters (in two wheel drive only of course).

If you are running in four wheel drive, obviously none of that matters and you technically can get away with brakes on just one axle. I believe Eric even posted a picture of a buggy with no rear brakes on here

JohnnyJ I'll stop derailing the thread, I believe you have all the information you need at this point on brake proportioning and can do with it what you will. I forgot that the brake calculator calculates the bias for you, the one comment I have is that I would guess your COG is lower than 34.5" which would have a significant impact on your bias numbers.

 

[Sterlingfire]

Sooo I am down for a good stock application. I need a good master that will work with a d60/14bolt with stock calipers. Still running a vacuum booster

Anything from an hd truck that gm made should match pretty well...
Honestly in my old truck i ran the stock mc on a jy hb unit from an 01 gm hd. Used the pump from that same truck and had hydro assist. All together it worked pretty well. Drove the highways many times in it. Stock ford dana 60 with 14 bolt using gm 3/4t calipers and rotors on the back. Might have to do a prop valve if you are still using drums on the rear though

 

[Bebop]

If you are running in four wheel drive, obviously none of that matters and you technically can get away with brakes on just one axle. I believe Eric even posted a picture of a buggy with no rear brakes on here

Seen it done more than once. Works ok if you're not going fast.

 

[Winchested]

For vac boos

Sooo I am down for a good stock application. I need a good master that will work with a d60/14bolt with stock calipers. Still running a vacuum booster

For vac boosted the 1.125 corvette masters work the best. There are two year ranges to choose from one uses a short push rod the other a long one.

I tried the 1.25" masters on my Scout with vac boost and it sucked. Went to the 1.125" corvette and it's way better.

1 ton gm fronts 3/4 ton gm rears. 60/14b.

 

[JohnnyJ]

Derail away. It’s good tech. Looking forward to feedback on spreadsheet.

Looks like 2007 super duty has 1.5” master cylinder from the factory. So that gives me 10:1 hydraulic ratio up front. The ratio on rear (8:1) is higher with Chevy 1/2t calipers is better than factory rear calipers. So maybe I’m piecing this together.

Going with 34mm from an early 2000s Chevy will provide a little more travel and be a little softer, which I wonder if that would feel less touchy. That’s 12:1 and 10:1.

 

[pennsylvaniaboy]

For vac boos
For vac boosted the 1.125 corvette masters work the best. There are two year ranges to choose from one uses a short push rod the other a long one.

I tried the 1.25" masters on my Scout with vac boost and it sucked. Went to the 1.125" corvette and it's way better.

1 ton gm fronts 3/4 ton gm rears. 60/14b.

pretty sure that is what I have, and either it's bad or it sucks lol.

 

[Winchested]

pretty sure that is what I have, and either it's bad or it sucks lol.

I'm on 40s and can lock em up. With a real hard push. It has a long pedal but it works. Maybe your booster is shit. Or you just need to step up to Hydro.

 

[pennsylvaniaboy]

Derail away. It’s good tech. Looking forward to feedback on spreadsheet.

Looks like 2007 super duty has 1.5” master cylinder from the factory. So that gives me 10:1 hydraulic ratio up front. The ratio on rear (8:1) is higher with Chevy 1/2t calipers is better than factory rear calipers. So maybe I’m piecing this together.

Going with 34mm from an early 2000s Chevy will provide a little more travel and be a little softer, which I wonder if that would feel less touchy. That’s 12:1 and 10:1.

So that seems oppisite of when ppl are saying. I know my excursion does pretty well with vacuum boost brakes bigger calipers than my buggy

 

[Bebop]

I'm 1.25" bore MC, 4 wilwood 4.88" calipers and 14" rotors.
It will lock up 43s with very minimal pedal effort.

Some people think the brakes on my buggy are touchy. I love them.

 

[pennsylvaniaboy]

I'm 1.25" bore MC, 4 wilwood 4.88" calipers and 14" rotors.
It will lock up 43s with very minimal pedal effort.

Some people think the brakes on my buggy are touchy. I love them.

With manual, vacuum, or hydro boost?

 

[Bebop]

With manual, vacuum, or hydro boost?

Lol, have you been reading my posts in this topic ?

Hydroboost.

 

[JohnnyJ]

the one comment I have is that I would guess your COG is lower than 34.5" which would have a significant impact on your bias numbers.

When I borrowed some race scales, I only did a quick corner weight, but didn't try to do the COG measurements. I went with camshaft height, but even if I move down to crankshaft height it only adjusted bias by 5%.

 

[94toytruck]

All my friends are using JY GM hydro boost setups with the stock GM masters except me. Guys had issues driving through the brakes, not being able to hold on hills ect. made the switch and are completely happy.


My manual brakes have been pretty good with a long pedal. With out the long pedal they were ok but took a lot of effort if sitting on a hill for awhile. My rig is also stick though which probably helps. I have no room for a hydro boost setup anyways.

 

[TTMotorsports]

I am running a boost LS truck PS pump that puts out 1850 psi the guy said. Saginaw steering box and a 4.75" stroke ram assist plus gm hydro boost. I am running 8AN pressure lines and 8AN return line from box to reservoir and a separate 6AN line for return on hydro boost. My research and talking to power steering companies they say that the hydro boost doesn't take much flow as it basically charges the little cylinder on the side and that pressure is what makes it a power system. When on the brakes you only need power when applying the pedal NOT holding the pedal down. So they don't use much steering flow when brakes are applied.

 

[TTMotorsports]

I am running a PSS reservoir/cooler combo and should work perfectly. Worse case PSS said if it doesn't have enough flow for the setup I could go with a higher flow steering pump, but he said the numbers all match and should work perfectly

 

[Bebop]

I am running a boost LS truck PS pump that puts out 1850 psi the guy said.

No P-Pump makes 1850psi, but other than that I agree with you.

With that cooler/resi combo you won't have any issues at all.

 

[TTMotorsports]

Yeah he said 1650 psi but can peak to 1800 I guess.