What's new

Brakes - Make better or start over?

JohnnyJ

Low Range Drifter
Joined
May 19, 2020
Member Number
169
Messages
734
Loc
SE Michigan
Buggy specs:
JHF Chassis, 108" WB, 39" reds, 2007 ford d60 front (stock brakes), 14 bolt rear (chevy 1/2t calipers), Busted Knuckle 9:1 pedal, Wilwood tandem master 1.125 bore. Hawk super duty pads front and rear. Hard line from master to upper axle link on chassis, braided line down upper link, hard line on axle from tee to corners with short braided line to caliper. COG is estimated at cam height. CG behind front axle is based on 60/40 weight distribution (Measured weight is 3900 with 60/40 front/rear bias).

My brakes aren't bad, but they aren't super awesome either. I just used a vacuum bleeder to see if I was leaving something on the table, and it doesn't appear to be the case.

I've been messing around with Billavista's brake calc, including reformatting to make it easier for my brain to digest info. I think the calc matches up to my experience. Stopping power is adequate, but the pedal has lots of throw. That matches up with the hydraulic ratios and required pressures. So if I drop from 1.125 to 1.0 master cylinder, I'd expect I can make more pressure but require even more pedal travel. If I want less pedal travel I could up the master cylinder size, but would require some boost.

Am I missing anything? I feel like I have decent grasp, but keep thinking I'm missing something. What are good alternatives? I get that big ass super duty calipers that were likely hydroboosted are gonna be pushing a manual brake setup.

For the money, I'm not sure if I'd want to spend money on a remote hydroboost setup (not even sure where I'd fit that..) or move towards wilwood 4-pistons and solid rotors.

Figuring out how to the 2004 D60 caliper up front would get pedal ratio down to 14:1. Any suggestions on alternate stock calipers up front?

Worth using a smaller caliper on the rear? Maybe S10 front?

Side note: when in 4x4, would it be correct to adjust brake balance to 50/50 split?

if anybody is interested in the reformatted brake tool, I could post it up.
 

Attachments

  • brakes.png
    brakes.png
    87.9 KB · Views: 273
avoid wilwood dynalite calibers or any with out bridge they flex like noodle and you will never get good brakes.
 
Similar system here with dual Wilwood 3/4" masters. GM 3500 calipers up front and 1/2 ton rear. I started out with 1" and I didn't have enough stopping power. Going to 3/4 was better but still not good. I don't have room for a longer pedal.

Everything I read leads me to needing hydro boost but I can't figure out how to package it. Hoping someone has some insight.
 
Everything I read leads me to needing hydro boost but I can't figure out how to package it. Hoping someone has some insight.
Remote it.
Make a 90deg cantilever system.
Rework your pedal area.

Many different ways to get to what you want.


JohnnyJ
You're fighting a loosing battle and you know it :

Stopping power is adequate, but the pedal has lots of throw. That matches up with the hydraulic ratios and required pressures. So if I drop from 1.125 to 1.0 master cylinder, I'd expect I can make more pressure but require even more pedal travel. If I want less pedal travel I could up the master cylinder size, but would require some boost.

This is completely correct. So you have to decide what avenue you're willing to go down.
Want less pedal travel for the same clamping force? Need boost.
Want more clamping force with the same pedal travel ? Need boost.
Want more clamping force with less pedal travel ? DEFINITELY needs boost.

Stopping power doesn't come from thin air.

Jake from BKOR is a really really good friend of mine. He's got all of the testing done and can sell you a completely matched, manual system that will stop your rig excellent. But it does have a long pedal throw in order to keep the required pedal force manageable.

On my rig, I hated that long throw and went hydroboost. My brakes are amazing and everyone comment on how good they are. My install ended up converting all of my friends one by one to hydroboost after they tried it. It's that good.


PS : I currently have fancy ass super duper lightweight brakes. They work excellent. Previously, I used to have 05+ calipers on all corners and they worked excellent too.
 
Last edited:
JohnnyJ
You're fighting a loosing battle and you know it :

Yeah. This was my last gasp.

Going through various options, I either downsize calipers until the pedal has reasonable travel or add boost and size the master cylinder to get the throw I want.
 
Can you do something like this type of remote booster?
20220402_202317.jpg
20220203_192454.jpg


Lol obviously not a buggy, but it shows the space you can save.
The booster setup with the mc and adaptor for the slave is about 18" if i remember right. I can check tonight when i get home if you wanted.
 
Yeah. This was my last gasp.

Going through various options, I either downsize calipers until the pedal has reasonable travel or add boost and size the master cylinder to get the throw I want.
I went 1” wilwood double masters on my ibex. I realized the brakes were gonna suck so I cut the pedals and went as long as possible in the space I had to work with. I can lock em up now. Same specs as yours other than a kingpin 60. I did dual pedals and built a setup like a backhoe brake setup so I can flip a tab over with my foot and brake either the front or rear to do digs.
 

It's actually 22" end of mc to mc. 6" at the widest point of the booster.
Mine is going to end up behind the cab. There are other things allocated to that spot now lol.

The site tells you which slave cylinder to use, and the mc is just from a mini truck.
20220902_055713.jpg
 
With manual brakes you are going to want the biggest rotors you can manage (or smaller tires, but who wants that :laughing:). If you can't get big enough rotors, you are going to have a really hard time making something work without power assist.

BKOR makes some 14" rotors for Superduty axles. Later Superduty axles have 14.29" brakes from the factory (14+), but the caliper mount on the knuckle is different, so I am not sure what all would be involved with converting and trying to keep your '07 knuckles.

Hydroboost brakes with a large bore master cylinder will give the best feel in my opinion (short travel with a firm pedal that you modulate with pressure). If you have the space and don't mind a little more weight and complexity, hydroboost makes it easy to have good brakes.

Also, Jake Burkey did a pretty good video about buggy brakes for a "Tech Tuesday" a while back. He really doesn't like dual master cylinder setups, but I am not sure I agree with his reasoning.



EDIT: Where did you get the calculator you are using? I had to fix some of the calculation errors with the version of the Billavista calculator Jake shows in that video and has on their website.
 
Last edited:
Im fighting the same issue. put on a new vacuum booster....and its not really any better. Im so irritated with this.I have a safe, capable wheeler, but the brakes make it hairy and annoying
 
Also, Jake Burkey did a pretty good video about buggy brakes for a "Tech Tuesday" a while back. He really doesn't like dual master cylinder setups, but I am not sure I agree with his reasoning.

Dual MCs are great.
It's just hard to find the right ones, they almost are all too big.

Also, the balance bar needs to be deleted in our application, it's always a terrible thing to have one.

Im fighting the same issue. put on a new vacuum booster....and its not really any better. Im so irritated with this.I have a safe, capable wheeler, but the brakes make it hairy and annoying

Longer pedal (higher mechanical ratio), smaller master bore (higher hydraulic ratio) or hydroboost (more assist).

Pick one and roll with it.
 
Bebop How long is the bustedknucle brake pedal?


Can you run the vacuum booster, and new wilwood master together?
 
9:1 pedal ratio, I'm gonna ballpark around 15 or 16" long. You should call them for precise measurements.

You could run a vacuum booster and a wilwood master cylinder as long as they all bolt together or you make an adapter of some sort.
 
Also, the balance bar needs to be deleted in our application, it's always a terrible thing to have one.

Care to expand on this? Is your comment based on running in four wheel drive since your axles are mechanically coupled, or does your opinion stand for running at higher speeds in two wheel drive?

I am curious since I have never liked the implementation of a balance bar, but I can see where I think they would be useful for keeping the rear from locking up early in two wheel drive.
 
bingo

I did say "in our application"

I guess it depends on where your niche is. I definitely prefer being in rear wheel drive at speed in the desert and obviously on the road. I was just curious if there was more behind your statement.
 
Desert and road ?

I thought we were talking about buggies.
 
Uploaded to resources


Please take a look and let me know if there are any issues. It's been a while since I tweaked it, and I know I compared to what BV's calc originally produced to verify operation. So if there was math error in the original, I likely duplicated it.

All credit for the math goes to BV.

I do think I'm moving to hydroboost after another weekend of wheeling.
 
Side note: when in 4x4, would it be correct to adjust brake balance to 50/50 split?

Care to expand on this? Is your comment based on running in four wheel drive since your axles are mechanically coupled, or does your opinion stand for running at higher speeds in two wheel drive?

I am curious since I have never liked the implementation of a balance bar, but I can see where I think they would be useful for keeping the rear from locking up early in two wheel drive.

bingo

I did say "in our application"

Going back to original comment, should the calc have a "Locked 4x4" mode that adjust to 50/50 split?

Edit: watched a little of the BKOR video and he adjusts his horizontal CG to force 50/50 distribution. I could probably add a switch for that, or maybe do calcs in 4x4 and 2x4 modes.
 
Last edited:
Similar system here with dual Wilwood 3/4" masters. GM 3500 calipers up front and 1/2 ton rear. I started out with 1" and I didn't have enough stopping power. Going to 3/4 was better but still not good. I don't have room for a longer pedal.

Everything I read leads me to needing hydro boost but I can't figure out how to package it. Hoping someone has some insight.

Use your existing pedal/mc stuff to power a remote mounted hydrboost. Common on desert trucks and I've seen them mounted behind the cab in the bedcage area and they work great.

 
Use your existing pedal/mc stuff to power a remote mounted hydrboost. Common on desert trucks and I've seen them mounted behind the cab in the bedcage area and they work great.

Same one Sterlingfire posted. Since I have dual Wilwood MC's I think I would need to swap them out or tie them together somehow.

I'm also wondering how hydroboost will work with cutting brakes. Seems like normal braking would work fine but the hydroboost would not enhance the cutting brakes.
 
Yeah you'd have to go to a traditional master cylinder to get hydroboost to work(at least easier).
Cutting brakes are manual anyway. There's no booster that will assist them, unless you connected the cutting brake through the booster like it was a brake pedal under the dash... they are fine being manual. That's why the handle is so long and the throw so short, so you have mechanical advantage over the cutting brake mc(it's more like an on/ off valve with a piston to build pressure then a master cylinder).
You won't regret going to hb. You'll have solid brakes every time.
 
My cutting brakes don't work all that well either. I rarely can lock up a tire. It certainly helps with a tight turn or front dig but not as well as I would like.
 
My concern with the TDS system is that it uses stock hydroboost, and I wonder if it would impact my hydro steering. (PSC TC with An8 to steering valve, AN6 to ram). Im happy with my steering and dont want to mess it up. But the master seemed appropriately big for the Ford brakes.

BKOR has ported hydroboost unit, but looks like he mates it to the same wilwood master I have now, which is part of my limitation.

I've heard good things about Vanco, and I wonder if he would spec it all to my setup.

Any thoughts?
 
Top Back Refresh