At what point did you decide to make a "big" tool purchase? (For example: mill, lathe, etc.)

[GLTHFJ60]

I think that mill was $350 in scrap price, it was stupid to not buy it even if tooling was a problem.

Keep that in mind when hunting for equipment.

That's the thing though. If it costs $2000 in basic tooling for that odd ass taper (if it is odd, idk), the machine should just be scrapped, lol.

 

[CarterKraft]

That's the thing though. If it costs $2000 in basic tooling for that odd ass taper (if it is odd, idk), the machine should just be scrapped, lol.

Agreed but knowing what I know now I could of A: tried to regrind the spindle for MT or B: just bolted a 4+ kw Chinese spindle with ER tooling or C: a spindle assembly with BT tooling as that mill was a fixed head knee only mill so not having a quill wasn't a real problem.

2HP BT30 Power Head CNC Drilling Spindle Unit, Waterproof CNC Lathe Milling Boring Head Tool (BT40-3000RPM) Amazon.com

 

[LScout800]

Plasma table is well worth it, I use it a lot even for small projects. Shit that used to take me all day now takes just a few minutes. When you get 1-2 days a week to work on stuff time is valueable.

My grandfather recently passed away, and I missed out on his Leblonde and Bridgeport. (Uncle took them and sold them). I got the tooling though. I now have boxes and boxes of endmills, chucks, lathe tools ect. It is all just sitting in the corner of my shop.

I need a lathe, there are so many little things I do I either have to find parts online for $ or do some hoky shit to get stuff to work. I have been looking at the little minilathes but know I will just burn it up and buy an actual lathe in a few years. Any advice for picking up a used machine? Not many machines in my area that I can afford, everything within my budget is a basket case. I have no experience machining aside from shop class in highschool, and have no idea what to look for in a used machine.

 

[aczlan]

I bet that's a "oil" question...
Morse taper or R8 for home gamers but there's a bunch of other types with similar size.

I didn't buy a VanNorman mill one time at a scrap yard (stupid mistake...) because it used a special van Norman taper and I wasn't smart enough to realize I could get around that several different ways and at worst I could have converted it to a spindle motor.

That's actually one I see up for sale, supposedly has a full set of collets, 2 vices and a DRO that works on one axis but no mention of tooling and asking $2500

Aaron Z

 

[CarterKraft]

That's actually one I see up for sale, supposedly has a full set of collets, 2 vices and a DRO that works on one axis but no mention of tooling and asking $2500

Aaron Z

Oh hell, Interesting
I'd do as much research as possible, the one I was looking at was a #4 I think, much smaller, but maybe that's the tooling, can't really remember.

They had mixed reviews when I searched, the fans said they had rigidity of a horizontal mill but really lacked the flexibility of a Bridgeport for my purposes.
It's 10 years later and I still don't have a mill of any size so that was probably a mistake not buying it.

 

[AlxJ64]

I was hoping for more specific examples that would help me understand the possibilities with different tools and what similar needs I might be able to relate to.

For example:

• "I bought a mill because I found myself making a lot of x, y, z."
• "I got a lathe because I need to build something I didn't want to pay or wait for someone else to make."

I already see the utility of a plasma table for myself, but I'm not sure if I would use a mill or lathe enough to justify the purchase. That being said, I still want em .

Plasma Table was my second big tool purchase, a 220V Mig welder was the first. The plasma table was one of the first 100 growth series Torchmates back when Dan was starting up on the old forum. It was a deal and the off the shelf parts just weren't fitting and the cost was too high for a garage fab guy and I knew I could do enough side work with it to help pay for it. That machine has paid for itself about 50 times over or more. Actually, this weekend I'll be using it to turn out about $300 in side work in about 1.5 hrs because the drawings already exist.

As for the Mill and lathe... there are so many things they can be used for.

Let few projects have been redrilling hubs and making them hub-centric for their application. Granted I did use the Radial Arm drill for the bigger set because I got tired of chasing the knee on the Bridgeport.

8 on 170 Ford to 8 on 200 Ford dually adapter that was machined down and then converted to 8 on 6.5 at the wheel. Lathe was extremely useful. Make sure you have a 4 jaw for whatever lathe you pickup.

Hubcentric ring that was machined and then pressed in and Tig'd in place.

Some 8 on 6.5 14 bolt hubs that were given a Ford 8 on 170 bolt pattern, brake rotor centric hub ring, and wheel hubcentric ring. Tig'd on with RN67 monel filler. This was a lathe, mill, and TIG welder job. These went to Grendel

Sometimes its fun to just use the mill for unnecessary things. A porta band, drill and die grinder with a cutoff wheel could have easily done this... but... why fight all that? My 1943 Bridgeport has a TouchDRO system and I can stream music while running the machine. Its quite a nice way to spend a Saturday morning.

Cutting keyways or splines for shafts too... this is a sliding control rod for my busted Cincinnati No 2 Vertical mill. It was broken so it was cheap and I've been slowly repairing it. So using existing machines to fix cheap other "big purchase" machines.

This was a carrier assembly for a Toyota that a friend was building. The two flange blocks bolted to bulkhead and allowed for a two piece driveshaft setup to work with his crazy 4 link setup.

And sometimes, I buy big tools because I have used an old one for years, fixed it up and increased its value, so I sell that and roll the $ into a nicer one because... I want one and you only get one life to live. Work hard play hard. I've done that with my Lathes, welders, etc. Recently with a mini excavator. Had a beat up 1994 X331 that I went through it and rebuilt a bunch of things, sold it and just bought a 2024 E48. I have enough use at my place, family farm, and friends that need work that it will more than justify its payments in comparison to renting one.

 

[aczlan]

Oh hell, Interesting
I'd do as much research as possible, the one I was looking at was a #4 I think, much smaller, but maybe that's the tooling, can't really remember.

They had mixed reviews when I searched, the fans said they had rigidity of a horizontal mill but really lacked the flexibility of a Bridgeport for my purposes.
It's 10 years later and I still don't have a mill of any size so that was probably a mistake not buying it.

That's what I found, they said the Z movement was limited/difficult compared to a Bridgeport style (because you move the whole table vs just the quill).
From Practical Machinist:

What can you tell me about Van Norman #12?

Was curious, what can you tell me about van Norman #12 milling machine? Thanks, Mark

www.practicalmachinist.com

The VN 12 is the next-to smallest machine they made (besides the super rare bench top horizontal mills). It has powerfeed on the X axis only.

Extremely well made and accurate. Rigid as all get out with a meaty sliding ram that makes a Bport look very flimsy by comparison. They also have a nice low speed range, making them well suited to really get with the program when it comes to hogging with a shell mill. They have no quill, but you can slap a small Bridgeport or similar head on the overarm or spindle head and solve that problem, plus add a lot more versatility to the machine.

The real great part is that they are actually a horizontal mill that is capable of doing vertical work. You can lay the spindle head down at any angle from vertical to horizontal and do angled surfaces, slotting, etc... But when it is down horizontal, with the horizontal arbor in place and the overarm and arbor support hooked to the other end is when the VN type machines really shine. You can make slotting passes with a 3/4" wide horizontal cutter that will make anything with an endmill look sick.

Now collets, arbors, and such are not extremely hard to find, but the tooling for this Van Norman C taper is pretty expensive. You cannot go buy Chinese or Pakistani tooling for this machine, so your only option is original VN tooling. Bad news is it is not cheap. Good news is it is VERY good stuff, if expensive. Many arbors and such you can easily make. I have made several things for the VN #6 at work. Also cheapo R-8 tooling can easily be turned down to R-8 if it is not hardened (and that's why it is cheap).

Best part is that these mill sell for nearly nothing. Even with the addition of a Bridgeport head, you can still probably get one up and running, with some tooling for under a grand.

Aaron Z

 

[AlxJ64]

Also, as others have mentioned, being able to move the item is REALLY important when it comes to buying and selling these machines. Often, the cost of moving something big is the reason why the machines are sold cheap. If you can move it cheaply, then its a deal for you. However, the cost of the stuff to move it is often a hindrance in of itself. I have also learned that being able to deliver things helps a lot too! The last lathe I sold was just under 3k lbs. I was able to offer delivery and setting in place as part of the sale price. I had it listed and sold within 2 hours, with several others in line if it fell through. The sale price was then MORE than I paid for the bigger upgrade machine because the bigger machine is again hard to move for others and therefore, not as expensive. It required to machines two lift it off of my trailer but because I could do it myself, I didn't incur any rigging fees etc.

Also, don't be afraid to be creative. There is a silly little book out there called "Moving heavy things". The exact math of the methods aren't prescribed but various ideas and methods used over the centuries and using simple machines are shown and it will give you lots of ideas. Don't be afraid to think outside of the box. I've found that if a seller wants it gone, and you can get them to provide pictures of the site, and then also if you can find specs on the machine, you can put together a pretty good plan for recovery. Caveat, I was lied to about the site, condition, and location of the Cincinnati mill when I drove from Richmond to Jacksonville, Fla to pick it up.

8,000 lb piece of equipment that can be pushed along on flat smooth concrete. A few boards with innertubes stapled to them make good levers for bite on concrete too.

 

[CarterKraft]

That's actually one I see up for sale, supposedly has a full set of collets, 2 vices and a DRO that works on one axis but no mention of tooling and asking $2500

Aaron Z

Thinking about this more I can't see buying that for that money. Scrap price is one thing but to go in for $2500 that's like need to love it territory.
I'd be really curious about putting a J head on it like was suggested in the PM thread.

If you can really put a J head on it and have a quill etc. with relative ease that might change my opinion. Around here $2500 buys a pretty nice Bridgeport.

 

[CarterKraft]

I lied, it was a #12, not near as good as a condition as yours.

 

[PAToyota]

Sometimes its fun to just use the mill for unnecessary things. A porta band, drill and die grinder with a cutoff wheel could have easily done this... but... why fight all that? My 1943 Bridgeport has a TouchDRO system and I can stream music while running the machine. Its quite a nice way to spend a Saturday morning.

Having the equipment or tool definitely opens up a whole host of possibilities. You go from "well, maybe we could..." to "I've got an XXX, we can do..."

The downside of that is that people then come up with all sorts of things that you can do for them... On that, don't be afraid to accept (or ask for) money for doing it. What isn't a big deal for you - half an hour with the skidloader to move stuff around or dig out a space for something - is a big deal for them - a couple weekends of hard labor doing it by hand. But, as I say, that can be a downside too. You quickly find those family, "friends", and others that think that since you have something that you should be willing to drop everything at a moment's notice and do something for free. They're also the ones who are usually too busy to help when you need a hand or even bother to thank you for what you did. Like the neighbor I helped prep for a patio for a case of beer that I never did get or who would borrow tools and then I'd have to spend weeks trying to get them back from him. A few rounds of such things and I typically had other things going on when he needed something...

And sometimes, I buy big tools because I have used an old one for years, fixed it up and increased its value, so I sell that and roll the $ into a nicer one because... I want one and you only get one life to live.

Definitely! That's true with a lot of things. Rent a tool or get one at HF if you're not sure how much use it will see. Then buy a better one if you see you'll use it a lot or the HF one breaks / wears out. Get that 110V MIG and keep your eye out for used Blue / Red 220V machines.

The exact math of the methods aren't prescribed but various ideas and methods used over the centuries and using simple machines are shown and it will give you lots of ideas.

I've done a lot of moving with pipe rollers, a digging iron as a lever, and a come-along. However, those tools have been upgraded too.

 

[LScout800]

Well just bought a little vivor minilathe, came with a bunch of tooling and stuff. Should be able to mount it to my workbench and take care of 90% of the crap I want to do. Don't really have the floorspace for a big machine, so this will work for now. Don't know too much about them other than chinese minilathes have a decent following with all sorts of aftermarket upgrades. It is a used machine, so it was also less than half price for a new one.

 

[CarterKraft]

Well just bought a little vivor minilathe, came with a bunch of tooling and stuff. Should be able to mount it to my workbench and take care of 90% of the crap I want to do. Don't really have the floorspace for a big machine, so this will work for now. Don't know too much about them other than chinese minilathes have a decent following with all sorts of aftermarket upgrades.

I get shit for it but my opinion is the only thing worse than a shitty lathe/mill is NO lathe/mill...
It's just really hard to duplicate these tools with other tools that aren't these tools.

 

[PAToyota]

I get shit for it but my opinion is the only thing worse than a shitty lathe/mill is NO lathe/mill...

As I said, start out with the HF or Vevor stuff and if you find it useful, start looking for possibilities to upgrade as you're able.

That said, about 35 years ago I picked up a 110V MIG and spent some time really thinking I knew what I was doing. Then I got a chance to weld with a decent machine and quickly saw how much I didn't know and what I was missing... Of course, that was before the internet and everything else we take for granted these days, so it was pretty easy to live in a vacuum.

The one issue with starting out with such equipment is not knowing enough to know what you're missing. There are times that having a better machine makes the process infinitely easier - not just multiple times easier. When you're fighting the machine's limitations at every step, you're a lot more likely to just give up.

 

[Landslide]

I was hoping for more specific examples that would help me understand the possibilities with different tools and what similar needs I might be able to relate to.

For example:

• "I bought a mill because I found myself making a lot of x, y, z."
• "I got a lathe because I need to build something I didn't want to pay or wait for someone else to make."

I already see the utility of a plasma table for myself, but I'm not sure if I would use a mill or lathe enough to justify the purchase. That being said, I still want em .

Everybody does different things and or sometimes similar. Not sure examples would help you as much as you think. You have to think about things you need or want to build. Then you have to justify the purchase of a big machine you’re thinking about to yourself. People here can’t tell you you should buy some big machine as we have no bearing on it at all.

Go search on YouTube for videos showing the uses of whatever big machine you’re thinking about like say a knee mill, if the videos you watch fulfill your desires to move forward with purchasing one, then see what you can find in your area and bring the deal here and ask if it’s a good deal or if you should pass.

There are websites out there that will help you figure out how to evaluate a used machine you may be interested in buying. Like if you’re looking at a used knee mill, those websites have threads on what to look for on them so you don’t over pay for a wore out tired mill.

Just to buy a machine to say you have it is kinda crazy but people do just that. For me, I have tons of uses and ideas to use the machines I buy, but I may not use some of them for a long time as life gets in the way a lot.

Anywho, good luck on your journey

 

[Landslide]

Similar to what Carter said, you want to make sure whatever mill you get has a tooling system that's easy to get tooling, or at least adapters, for. Bridgeport used R8 for a long time so many clones used that size, meaning R8 has tons of tooling available. Direct use drill chucks, drills, R8 collets, R8 to er collet adapters, etc. They're all held in with a draw bar that goes down in through the mill head from the top to the collet or adapter or whatever. Cnc stuff can be pneumatic or hydraulic or unicorn cum, not sure.

Cat style holders are bigger mills and cncs AFAIK. My Bridgeport is R8, so it's easy to get all kinds of stuff.

Def don't just buy a mill and think youll be able to find tooling. Same goes with the lathe, the spindle taper can be common or very, very odd. My leblond L00 taper is common enough to find chucks.

Tooling is whole other story too. I spent over $100 at a swap meet last weekend for some end mill bits and other things. Got a really nice set of old complete letter stamp set, always wanted one.

Measuring tools are another whole story also. You can get some serious money wrapped up in that too. I have a bunch of stuff I’ve collected through the years, some I’ve had from building engines and that. I have a couple 0-1” mics but need a set of larger ones. I’m only interested in a couple different name brands that are like Sterrett. I will not buy cheap cHiNa made measuring tools period. I do buy stuff used tho and I’m not afraid to do that

I search eBay for a lot of tools and end mills etc etc. you can find ads or listings of lots or packages put together of various tooling and measurement tools you can bid on. eBay is a great source for buying stuff like this used and new.

But yeah, this shit adds up fast and you’ll end up with a lot of money invested. Some machines are sold with tooling but buyer beware, don’t let the tooling cloud your vision of doing a proper inspection of the machine you’re looking at. Some tooling you may never use either for your applications.

 

[AKnate]

I get shit for it but my opinion is the only thing worse than a shitty lathe/mill is NO lathe/mill...
It's just really hard to duplicate these tools with other tools that aren't these tools.

Had a Grizzly "mill" l. It sucked at everything.

 

[toocheaptosmoke]

An old mill and a lathe have been on the list for a loooong time, just never really had the shop space or come across any local deals. Need to try and make that happen sooner rather than later...

However, don't always write off attempting projects because you don't have the "right" tools. Just because it may take 10 minutes on a machine doesn't mean a couple hours of grunt force labor can't get it done also. I like watching those pakistani truck repair guys that get an amazing amount of work done with minimal tools. Or the guys building rigs in the driveway with a 4" grinder and a flux core.

I've made a POS drill press do way more things than it should have.

 

[PAE]

Bought a pump hoist before the fire/covid to make a buck or 100 and rebuilt the hydraulics and replaced the warn out cylinders.

 

[AKnate]

Log into Facebook

Log into Facebook to start sharing and connecting with your friends, family, and people you know.

www.facebook.com

That worth it?

 

[aczlan]

Having the equipment or tool definitely opens up a whole host of possibilities. You go from "well, maybe we could..." to "I've got an XXX, we can do..."

The downside of that is that people then come up with all sorts of things that you can do for them... On that, don't be afraid to accept (or ask for) money for doing it. What isn't a big deal for you - half an hour with the skidloader to move stuff around or dig out a space for something - is a big deal for them - a couple weekends of hard labor doing it by hand.

Excellent point, I have a couple of friends who I would lend any tool or piece of equipment I own and if they called needed something in a hurry, I would drop what I was doing and take it to them (although, the one who bought a used Range Rover from a mechanic got a helping of grief when I brought him water because it sprung a coolant leak. He also got a "leaky" prank water glass with a Range Rover logo on it on his birthday ).
They few on that list would take care of anything borrowed and bring it back in as good or better shape as they picked it up in as well as being willing to do the same for me if I really needed it.

Most however I keep my schedule vague because while I am willing to help if they get stuck I don't want to become a replacement for a contractor if they aren't willing/able to help themselves and learn the basics of what they are doing and get as far as they can.

I've done a lot of moving with pipe rollers, a digging iron as a lever, and a come-along. However, those tools have been upgraded too.

That's why I was happy to get a bunch of rollers at an auction.
They had been used to install ATMs and small (ish) bank safes.

As I said, start out with the HF or Vevor stuff and if you find it useful, start looking for possibilities to upgrade as you're able.

That said, about 35 years ago I picked up a 110V MIG and spent some time really thinking I knew what I was doing. Then I got a chance to weld with a decent machine and quickly saw how much I didn't know and what I was missing... Of course, that was before the internet and everything else we take for granted these days, so it was pretty easy to live in a vacuum.

The one issue with starting out with such equipment is not knowing enough to know what you're missing. There are times that having a better machine makes the process infinitely easier - not just multiple times easier. When you're fighting the machine's limitations at every step, you're a lot more likely to just give up.

I wonder how much that gap has been narrowed with the better quality available with the newer imported welders.

Aaron Z

 

[PAToyota]

Most however I keep my schedule vague because while I am willing to help if they get stuck I don't want to become a replacement for a contractor if they aren't willing/able to help themselves and learn the basics of what they are doing and get as far as they can.

Exactly. I will help people with things. If you want me to do it for you, then it's on my schedule and you're likely going to pay at least something for me doing it.

I wonder how much that gap has been narrowed with the better quality available with the newer imported welders.

That is definitely another thing that has changed.

 

[LScout800]

I wonder how much that gap has been narrowed with the better quality available with the newer imported welders.

Aaron Z

I picked up a vulcan welder from harbor freight back when they first came out. Welded just as well as the lincolns and millers at school (they were about the same class). Going on 7 years of constant use and many many spools of wire have yet to have issues.

I bought that because at the time I had a harbor freight flux core welder, which I outgrew the capabilities of once I wanted to start welded something other than 10 gauge, it couldn't weld sheetmetal nor anything thick. So I bought the best welder I could afford.

 

[Gots_a_sol]

Ended up with an old lathe from a buddy without any particular project in mine, just got it since it was only $500 with a pile of tooling.

Have ended up making a lot of bushings and spacers with it over the years that would have been such a hassle otherwise or may have not even bothered with the project.

Biggest thing I've done on it was turn down some motorcycle forks to fit the upper clamps (56mm down to 54). Made a bushing to support the far end on the tail stock and clamped it in.

A mill is on my list next. Just waiting for a deal to come by.

 

[Chris775]

Had a Grizzly "mill" l. It sucked at everything.

That's a bummer. Work just bought the G0791 12x36 combo job. Should be here in a couple weeks.

 

[bgaidan]

Tooling is whole other story too. I spent over $100 at a swap meet last weekend for some end mill bits and other things. Got a really nice set of old complete letter stamp set, always wanted one.

Measuring tools are another whole story also. You can get some serious money wrapped up in that too. I have a bunch of stuff I’ve collected through the years, some I’ve had from building engines and that. I have a couple 0-1” mics but need a set of larger ones. I’m only interested in a couple different name brands that are like Sterrett. I will not buy cheap cHiNa made measuring tools period. I do buy stuff used tho and I’m not afraid to do that

I search eBay for a lot of tools and end mills etc etc. you can find ads or listings of lots or packages put together of various tooling and measurement tools you can bid on. eBay is a great source for buying stuff like this used and new.

But yeah, this shit adds up fast and you’ll end up with a lot of money invested. Some machines are sold with tooling but buyer beware, don’t let the tooling cloud your vision of doing a proper inspection of the machine you’re looking at. Some tooling you may never use either for your applications.

This. I've probably got 2x as much in tooling for my CNC mill than I do in the mill itself.

These holders alone run $50-100+ used. And that's not even getting in to the cutters and inserts.

 

[AKnate]

That's a bummer. Work just bought the G0791 12x36 combo job. Should be here in a couple weeks.

I can't see that being very usable unless you parts. make very small partx.

 

[Chris775]

I can't see that being very usable unless you parts. make very small partx.

Yeah not at the top of my list either. All they saw was that china price. Luckily, that's all that will be asked of it is small, soft parts. What really sucks is that I still want one for home projects.

 

[rockota]

don't need... but darned close to buying a tire machine after dealing with some inner beads that wouldn't budge... and two shops who either a) wanted a fortune to pop a bead or b) wouldn't touch "because beadlocks"...

still... don't need one...
still... looking at them.

 

[PAToyota]

What really sucks is that I still want one for home projects.

Well, they should really let you do some personal projects off the clock - you know, so you can get to really know how to use the machine. 😉