Airshocks. Selection and tuning

[Bebop]

Yeah but our spring rate is progressive depending on the volumetric space, the oil volume cannot change per setup. Yes it does effect the rate but only because it's displacing volume. A better way of looking at it is the oil volume sets the spring rate of change? Anyways it's not as straight forward as a linear spring on a coil-over so may its best not to define components in simple terms.

I get what you're saying, that makes sense. I think you and I are talking about the same thing but I might have used the wrong terms. It is definitely not as straightforward as it seems.

My main difficultly with airshocks tuning is always finding the right amount of oil to use. That's why I was curious about bdkw1 method.

 

[Weasel]

Yeah just a matter of technical terms. I also use the same method @bdw1 posted. I really like the 2" walkers but my app is just right on the edge of limit and I really need 2.5's. Would love a set of 2.5" walkers, but they were only a few made.

 

[TimJus]

before 2.5 series came out , saws where the best choice because they use bigger shaft size.

in the saws negative spring will fuck your stack/piston if you let it fully extend freely.

saws need total re valving for trail style driving

in the formula offroad . its common to use air shocks as bump stops. just fill them until they dont fully bottom out. we ran year like this and never had issues. swapped to oris and started to bend bolts/shock mounts and frame parts.double the money half the suspension,,,,,,,,,

 

[Bebop]

before 2.5 series came out , saws where the best choice because they use bigger shaft size.

in the saws negative spring will fuck your stack/piston if you let it fully extend freely.

saws need total re valving for trail style driving

in the formula offroad . its common to use air shocks as bump stops. just fill them until they dont fully bottom out. we ran year like this and never had issues. swapped to oris and started to bend bolts/shock mounts and frame parts.double the money half the suspension,,,,,,,,,

Glad to see you here TimJus !
Your old thread about tuning airshocks is what got me started ! Thanks for sharing your efforts.

SAWS and every other manufacturer needs a total re-valve no matter what I'd say.



I'm going to ask about something specific of your message :

in the saws negative spring will fuck your stack/piston if you let it fully extend freely.

You mean that the springs will physically destroy the shims/piston because bad design, or is there something else ?

 

[ParadisePWoffrd]

Glad to see you here TimJus !
Your old thread about tuning airshocks is what got me started ! Thanks for sharing your efforts.

SAWS and every other manufacturer needs a total re-valve no matter what I'd say.



I'm going to ask about something specific of your message :



You mean that the springs will physically destroy the shims/piston because bad design, or is there something else ?

Your comment about re-valving. I agree with it, but dont see many talk about changing it with air shocks. Just oil levels and viscosity. I have heard a number of folks mention to flip the stack from how they are shipped. Are there suggestions or standard recommendations on where to start with tuning air shocks for a trail rig, other than just oil amounts?

 

[Bebop]

Your comment about re-valving. I agree with it, but dont see many talk about changing it with air shocks. Just oil levels and viscosity. I have heard a number of folks mention to flip the stack from how they are shipped. Are there suggestions or standard recommendations on where to start with tuning air shocks for a trail rig, other than just oil amounts?

If you follow bdkw1 method, your oil level and pressure should be fixed.
Then start changing shims until you're happy with the ride.

I just want to know why we are deciding of the amount of oil at 50psi extended.

PS : I've never changed viscosity. Always use Fox JM92 oil everywhere.

 

[TimJus]

Glad to see you here TimJus !
Your old thread about tuning airshocks is what got me started ! Thanks for sharing your efforts.

SAWS and every other manufacturer needs a total re-valve no matter what I'd say.



I'm going to ask about something specific of your message :



You mean that the springs will physically destroy the shims/piston because bad design, or is there something else ?

it can slip past the washer and gets wedged between washer and shim stack. or it will bend and crack the washer if you dont have limiting straps

 

[Bebop]

Yikes !

I need to open some SAW airshocks soon so I guess we will see what's inside.

Did you do anything to resolve that ? Tighter limit straps ?.

 

[TimJus]

Yikes !

I need to open some SAW airshocks soon so I guess we will see what's inside.

Did you do anything to resolve that ? Tighter limit straps ?.

removed springs and kept straps at right lenght

 

[4R_on_the_Rocks]

I just want to know why we are deciding of the amount of oil at 50psi extended.

I’m curious about this as well. Mainly because my pressure is @150psi with max oil levels.

 

[bdkw1]

I’m curious about this as well. Mainly because my pressure is @150psi with max oil levels.

Max recommended or bottom out the shock, fill it to the top then remove 10CC's?IF you have them all the way full of oil and are still having to run that much pressure you need bigger shocks.

 

[4R_on_the_Rocks]

Max recommended or bottom out the shock, fill it to the top then remove 10CC's?IF you have them all the way full of oil and are still having to run that much pressure you need bigger shocks.

I’m on 2.5’s I wouldn’t think that I’m to heavy for them. I’ll double check my oil volumes. I’m extremely happy with them but there is always room for improvement.

 

[Bebop]

removed springs and kept straps at right lenght

Thanks !

Max recommended or bottom out the shock, fill it to the top then remove 10CC's?IF you have them all the way full of oil and are still having to run that much pressure you need bigger shocks.

Ok, I understand the method, but why is this the "right" way? You invented it? You read it somewhere?

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

Ok, I understand the method, but why is this the "right" way? You invented it? You read it somewhere?

I'm pretty sure I read that on the other site many many years ago, and have set up a few pairs following that recommended method, and it has always worked well for me. And trust me when I say I'm no shock tuner.

If it works, do you really need to know exactly why? Sometimes it just does!

 

[Bebop]

If it works, do you really need to know exactly why? Sometimes it just does!

I need to know why, yeah. Especially if it's something that works.

 

[rockdog57]

So there are several different theories in this thread. I need to setup my shocks on my build. Oil full with the shock collapsed? Then 10cc’s out? Limit straps to stop full extension? It’s ok or not to go without bumps
on a rig just for trail use? I see rigs all over the internet that obviously aren’t running limit straps and no bumps. I are more confused than my normal confused!

 

[Bebop]

So there are several different theories in this thread. I need to setup my shocks on my build. Oil full with the shock collapsed? Then 10cc’s out? Limit straps to stop full extension? It’s ok or not to go without bumps
on a rig just for trail use? I see rigs all over the internet that obviously aren’t running limit straps and no bumps. I are more confused than my normal confused!

I know what I do, and it worked successfully for me, but I'm always curious to hear what others do.

As far as limit straps, run them like normal, unless you have some SAW airshocks apparently.

 

[rockdog57]

I know what I do, and it worked successfully for me, but I'm always curious to hear what others do.

As far as limit straps, run them like normal, unless you have some SAW airshocks apparently.

Yes, 2” racerunners.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

I need to know why, yeah. Especially if it's something that works.

I get it, and I'm the exact same way. I think that's why I'm good at the things I do. I question everything and get as much knowledge on the subject as possible to come up with informed conclusions. But there are still times you are going to run into the "it works because it works" stuff. Drives me nuts to not have definitive answers on why it works, but what are you going to do?

Honestly, I'm way more bothered by stuff that should work that doesn't.

 

[Bebop]

Yes, 2” racerunners.

Then do what TimJus recomended:

Pull the springs out and run normal limit straps

I get it, and I'm the exact same way. I think that's why I'm good at the things I do. I question everything and get as much knowledge on the subject as possible to come up with informed conclusions. But there are still times you are going to run into the "it works because it works" stuff. Drives me nuts to not have definitive answers on why it works, but what are you going to do?

Honestly, I'm way more bothered by stuff that should work that doesn't.

Heard that. But since bdkw1 is telling us about this method, I'd like to see if he knows/remembers why or could point us to an old thread of the PBB or something...

 

[Weasel]

Won't speak for bdk1 but I would imagine that your spring rates end up to high which gives a non-complaint ride. Starting with a lower initial pressure moves the spring rate curve down as much as possible. But still tough when you setup everything with little up travel.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

Running much lower pressure to set ride height also helps keep the pushback (unloading) to a minimum. That's really the main reason why I like that method when setting up air shocks.

 

[DesertCJ]

Won't speak for bdk1 but I would imagine that your spring rates end up to high which gives a non-complaint ride. Starting with a lower initial pressure moves the spring rate curve down as much as possible. But still tough when you setup everything with little up travel.

It's actually the opposite of that which is why it sucks. Adding oil so that you only need double digit psi increases the spring rate curve to the moon. I guess if you're into pogo sticks it would be nice...lol

 

[bdkw1]

I guess if you're into pogo sticks it would be nice...lol

Like you would get anything else out of an emulsion shock with serious shaft displacement?

Airshocks as sold by shock company's are great for springs, shocks, not so much. If you think that they will do everything you need them to you are mistaken. They are plenty of ways to bandaid them but the basic design has many flaws. Unless you go resi out the bottom and start putting tubes on them you are going to have to live with the limitations.

 

[DesertCJ]

Like you would get anything else out of an emulsion shock with serious shaft displacement?

Airshocks as sold by shock company's are great for springs, shocks, not so much. If you think that they will do everything you need them to you are mistaken. They are plenty of ways to bandaid them but the basic design has many flaws. Unless you go resi out the bottom and start putting tubes on them you are going to have to live with the limitations.

I'm not mistaken my friend, my rig has coil-overs

 

[ArTi54N]

I used to hang sometimes with one of the original creators of those King coil-overs, I'd try and find him, with more effort than I made just now.. couldn't remember the right name of his shop in McAllen, or maybe he doesnt have that shop anymore.. but even if I have to pay full price, I'd still get them from him, he used to be called Overkill..

I am starting to doubt that he is even alive still :(
I think his real name was Marty??

 

[TiTRD]

before 2.5 series came out , saws where the best choice because they use bigger shaft size.

in the saws negative spring will fuck your stack/piston if you let it fully extend freely.

saws need total re valving for trail style driving

in the formula offroad . its common to use air shocks as bump stops. just fill them until they dont fully bottom out. we ran year like this and never had issues. swapped to oris and started to bend bolts/shock mounts and frame parts.double the money half the suspension,,,,,,,,,

Odd. I ran 2.5 SAWs with no limit strap. Never had an issue.

 

[Bebop]

Running much lower pressure to set ride height also helps keep the pushback (unloading) to a minimum. That's really the main reason why I like that method when setting up air shocks.

Correct. But you end up with shocks that ride like absolute dog shit by doing that IMO.
I'd rather add a sway bar and a suckdown winch to prevent unloading if needed.

 

[bdkw1]

Correct. But you end up with shocks that ride like absolute dog shit by doing that IMO.
I'd rather add a sway bar and a suckdown winch to prevent unloading if needed.

Well, if your running lower extended pressure that means you have more oil in them. That means when the oil turns to foam after the second big hit it will be slightly thicker give a slight bit more damping.

 

[Bebop]

Real plush