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Airshocks. Selection and tuning

4R_on_the_Rocks said:
yes, that’s what I’m saying but it’s not very long. I feel like it’s pretty pointless on some of the longer shocks, but I’d like to hear some other opinions.
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I guess it depends on the application.

As mentioned, suspension geometry has a lot to do with it also.

Comp or hardcore guys run a suck down winch. Suck it down on side hills or steep climbs, let it out when you get bellied up.
 
YotaAtieToo said:
I guess it depends on the application.

As mentioned, suspension geometry has a lot to do with it also.

Comp or hardcore guys run a suck down winch. Suck it down on side hills or steep climbs, let it out when you get bellied up.
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Correct, I’m running 2.5 fox’s, suck down, sway bar, and I’m super happy with it. It’s crazy stable, and I did tons of homework on my link geometry.
 
bdkw1 said:
I think the top out spring is doing it's job. Do you have something else in mind for it to be doing?
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They make it sound like it’s to help with uploading. I believe it’s only the last 4 inches.

from the website

“Fox 2.5 Air Shocks With Negative Spring


Fox 2.5 Air Shocks come with a negative spring that reduces pushing off and unloading at full droop. Air shocks have a substantial spring, air force at full extension which an cause them to unload when going down hill. By adding a negaitve spring, Fox 2.5 Air Shocks reduce the tendancy for the shocks to unload.”
 
I believe I did hear about someone swapping the negative springs out for longer springs. Basically a poor man's ORI.
 
DesertCJ said:
I believe I did hear about someone swapping the negative springs out for longer springs. Basically a poor man's ORI.
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I’m happy with my 2.5’s with 150 psi to set ride height. That is a good idea though and would make a difference if you could get the last 50% of the shock stroke verses the 25% the factory springs act on.
 
Negative springs are for people that don't know how to adjust the oil level to get the right spring rate. Kinda like guys running 3" of preload on a coilover...........
 
bdkw1 said:
Negative springs are for people that don't know how to adjust the oil level to get the right spring rate. Kinda like guys running 3" of preload on a coilover...........
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Tell us more about how you decide what is the ideal oil level?
 
TiTRD said:
Thanks! I definitely miss it.

Did we ever wheel together when you were up here?
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No, but I saw you cruising around F&F a few times in it when I was there wheeling with other people. I think it was shortly after you linked it with the Motobuilt subframe. When I was eyeballing it at F&F most of that stuff looked fairly new. Any idea where it ended up and if it's still around? When you put it up for sale I wanted that thing sooooo bad but it just wasn't the right time for me to he buying toys.
 
Bebop said:
Tell us more about how you decide what is the ideal oil level?
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Set them at 50PSI extended and keep adding oil till you get the desired ride height. You can use the excel spreadsheet to get a better guesstimate.
 
SLOWPOKE693 said:
No, but I saw you cruising around F&F a few times in it when I was there wheeling with other people. I think it was shortly after you linked it with the Motobuilt subframe. When I was eyeballing it at F&F most of that stuff looked fairly new. Any idea where it ended up and if it's still around? When you put it up for sale I wanted that thing sooooo bad but it just wasn't the right time for me to he buying toys.
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I honestly should have just kept it. But life happens.

The frame and axles ended up in NC and a new body was put on it with an LS.

He started a build thread here, but didn't get far with it.

https://irate4x4.com/jeep/874-project-sick-of-breaking-d44-chromos-part-deux
 
bdkw1 said:
Set them at 50PSI extended and keep adding oil till you get the desired ride height. You can use the excel spreadsheet to get a better guesstimate.
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Thats is the first time I’ve heard of this method. In theory it sounds pretty straightforward and follows along with most of what I’ve read. What do you do when the shock oil volume is maxed out and still uses over 50 psi to reach your desired ride height?
 
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From my experience if you maxed oil volume and not getting the desired ride height you need to go with bigger air shocks OR time for coilovers.
 
bdkw1 said:
Set them at 50PSI extended and keep adding oil till you get the desired ride height. You can use the excel spreadsheet to get a better guesstimate.
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Thank you. But this brings the next question :

4R_on_the_Rocks said:
Thats is the first time I’ve heard of this method. In theory it sounds pretty straightforward and follows along with most of what I’ve read. What do you do when the shock oil volume is maxed out and still uses over 50 psi to reach your desired ride height?
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Wondering the same thing.
 
Maybe doing that on 2.5s would work better than 2.0s? All I know is that when I had the 2" air shocks, I only added enough oil to be able to run at 125psi I think it was, maybe 150psi. They work for rock crawling but they are stiff as a board. I think that with a link suspension with negative anti squat and low roll centers, air shocks would work better with less oil and more pressure. The steep spring rate with the max oil is just worthless for anything more than crawling.
 
DesertCJ said:
Maybe doing that on 2.5s would work better than 2.0s? All I know is that when I had the 2" air shocks, I only added enough oil to be able to run at 125psi I think it was, maybe 150psi. They work for rock crawling but they are stiff as a board. I think that with a link suspension with negative anti squat and low roll centers, air shocks would work better with less oil and more pressure. The steep spring rate with the max oil is just worthless for anything more than crawling.
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Pressure makes them unload though. IDK if that's what you want with low roll centers, no ?
 
Bebop said:
Pressure makes them unload though. IDK if that's what you want with low roll centers, no ?
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Does it though? Let's say spring force instead of pressure. Does the spring force on coil overs cause any less unloading than on an air shock?
 
DesertCJ said:
Does it though? Let's say spring force instead of pressure. Does the spring force on coil overs cause any less unloading than on an air shock?
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The way I see it, pressure is like preload and oil is spring rate.

I guess you may be right. I'd have to make some more graphs :grinpimp:
 
Bebop said:
The way I see it, pressure is like preload and oil is spring rate.

I guess you may be right. I'd have to make some more graphs :grinpimp:
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LOl, yeah. I looked briefly. I think you could get them to be similar. The base numbers in the air shock spreadsheet are a little high on the preload but not much.
 
Bebop said:
The way I see it, pressure is like preload and oil is spring rate.

I guess you may be right. I'd have to make some more graphs :grinpimp:
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That's backward :confused: Pressure is the spring rate and oil is the preload (like a spacer). You can't get a spring rate from the oil as it doesn't compress. The more or less oil, the larger your physical spacer would be or height of the preload collar.
 
Weasel said:
That's backward :confused: Pressure is the spring rate and oil is the preload (like a spacer). You can't get a spring rate from the oil as it doesn't compress. The more or less oil, the larger your physical spacer would be or height of the preload collar.
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I see what you're saying, but in my mind the oil changes the available expansion volume which in turns changes the rate at which the pressure will climb when you push the shaft in. That's my understanding of a spring rate, no ?
 
DesertCJ said:
LOl, yeah. I looked briefly. I think you could get them to be similar. The base numbers in the air shock spreadsheet are a little high on the preload but not much.
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I see what you're saying but there much be a difference between running high psi / low oil volume and low psi / high oil volume, right ?
 
4R_on_the_Rocks said:
Thats is the first time I’ve heard of this method. In theory it sounds pretty straightforward and follows along with most of what I’ve read. What do you do when the shock oil volume is maxed out and still uses over 50 psi to reach your desired ride height?
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Get bigger shocks. If you need that high of spring rate a 2.0 is to small of shock. I am currently making some with 2.5" shafts......... Also, when you run higher pressures like that you have a lot of seal stiction and it's hard on them.
 
Bebop said:
I see what you're saying, but in my mind the oil changes the available expansion volume which in turns changes the rate at which the pressure will climb when you push the shaft in. That's my understanding of a spring rate, no ?
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That was my experience. I added oil to reduce the bottoming that I was experiencing while doing more than crawling and then set pressure to achieve the ride height I was after.
 
Wilson said:
That was my experience. I added oil to reduce the bottoming that I was experiencing while doing more than crawling and then set pressure to achieve the ride height I was after.
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That's also what I do.

Shim selection makes a difference too.
 
Bebop said:
I see what you're saying, but in my mind the oil changes the available expansion volume which in turns changes the rate at which the pressure will climb when you push the shaft in. That's my understanding of a spring rate, no ?
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Yeah but our spring rate is progressive depending on the volumetric space, the oil volume cannot change per setup. Yes it does effect the rate but only because it's displacing volume. A better way of looking at it is the oil volume sets the spring rate of change? Anyways it's not as straight forward as a linear spring on a coil-over so may its best not to define components in simple terms.
 
Wilson said:
That was my experience. I added oil to reduce the bottoming that I was experiencing while doing more than crawling and then set pressure to achieve the ride height I was after.
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Yeah, shipping them with a #30 compression stack wasn't helping...
 
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