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4WD Conversion Questions 1969 F-250

LScout800

LScout800

LS Powered Tractor
Joined
Jun 10, 2020
Member Number
1937
Messages
420
Loc
CA
I am in the beginning planning stages for my F-250 build. I am planning on running the stock 390 FE with an np435. The goal for it is a tow rig/backup daily driver that will mainly see fireroads and snow in the winter time. I would be fine building my own suspension for the front (would like to keep it coils and radius arms) and plan to run super duty axles. My questions thus far.
1. Anyone who has swapped a set of '05 or later axles into one of these trucks, how far off were the super duty coil buckets from the dentside coil buckets? Wondering if I need to relocate the denside coil buckets if I went this way.
2. Is there a way to convert the 390 oil pan to a rear sump for differential clearance? I found kits online that are like 500 bucks or so, so if there is a cheap (junkyard) way of doing this I would love to know. I would like to keep the 390 simply because I think they are cool, and it runs.
3. In terms of transfer case clearance, I know highboys were lifted because they had to clock them way down to fit between the framerails. I would like to run a 205 if I could find one, and if not likely a BW 1356 cause those are cheap. How would it fit between the framerails? Would I have to clock it way down to clear? This truck is not going to be a crawler, mainly something to tow my scout but it will see some trails and I do not want to lift it way high to get clearance under the transfer case.

Picture of the truck in case you care.
20220917_115614.jpg
 
The bling way is rattlesnake build with links and coil overs

The poor boy way has some drawbacks, packaging gets tight around the cross member, seems that more lift makes steering easier to package

"Kingdent" on utoob did a clean 2wd 79 build with 05 axles, lots of music and black spray paint and bling rims, but well thought out fab work

There's not much room for a 1356 tcase in a 70s narrow frame

Personally I've settled on using a super duty chassis, I'll shift my fab work to body mounts and wind up with better handling and stiffer frame, larger fuel tank etc
 
nice cruiser in the background,

i too would use the a super duty frame and figure out body mounts, then you know it will work. my 2 cents:beer:
 
Projectjunkie said:
The bling way is rattlesnake build with links and coil overs

The poor boy way has some drawbacks, packaging gets tight around the cross member, seems that more lift makes steering easier to package

"Kingdent" on utoob did a clean 2wd 79 build with 05 axles, lots of music and black spray paint and bling rims, but well thought out fab work

There's not much room for a 1356 tcase in a 70s narrow frame

Personally I've settled on using a super duty chassis, I'll shift my fab work to body mounts and wind up with better handling and stiffer frame, larger fuel tank.
Click to expand...
I flipped through his vids real quick and he has some good ideas with new spring perches on the super duty axle. Will keep my eyes out for the elusive 205. Think I might have a junk 1356 in the parts pile someplace to pull measurements off of. The crossmemeber is not an issue, that is not difficult to build a new one. Mainly the oil sump being in the front of the 390, but this could be solved with a 460 swap.
 
chaplinfj60 said:
nice cruiser in the background,

i too would use the a super duty frame and figure out body mounts, then you know it will work. my 2 cents:beer:
Click to expand...
That belonged to the PO. It was pretty sweet on 37's and he was building a 5.3 to drop in it.

Main reason for not doing the super duty frame is cost. Trying to source a complete 4WD super duty chassis around here is tough, especially since all the ones I do find are way out of my budget.
 
chaplinfj60 said:
fair point on cost. remember we will spend all your money for you..... :lmao::lmao::lmao:
Click to expand...
Yes... and we also have the issue of a pissed of father when I bring home junk car number 4 to leave in his yard.
 
again we are all free of that drama, we are here to spend your money to and hep you build a bad ass rig , you can have that drama ahhahaah :lmao::lmao::lmao:
 
one issue you may run into is front drive shaft may hit the inside of the frame going to the axle if it is super narrow. maybe who knows
 
As for the chassis cost... it shouldn't really be much more than the cost of the axles alone, but you get the suspension, steering, drive lines etc

That stuff adds up really quick buying it piecemeal

I'd expect to get a rolling coil spring chassis for 1500-2000 with fuel tank steering box and drive shafts, more if you are seeking out an elocker or specific gears

But, guys were also doing these swaps long before the super duty was a thing, they found a 4wd diff, a divorced 205, welded in hangars and found a place to put a steering box

These days we've got way better fab tools to go the work cleanly, but now it's hard to find those vintage parts:laughing:
 
A 1356 is really wide compared to a 205, I can take some measurements off mine if you want. Same goes for the coil spacing on the superduty axle, but it is super wide. You are going to have to space the factory coil buckets way outboard to match up with an '05+ axle.

Personally I think swapping the axles and steering box is way easier than a frame swap.

Not sure how different the frame is on a dentside versus a bumpside, but here's a good thread where the guy grafted an '05+ F450 suspension and axles on a '74.

EDIT: Link Mamma's Sled '74 F450 CrewCab 6.7 Cummins P-Pump
 
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chaplinfj60 said:
one issue you may run into is front drive shaft may hit the inside of the frame going to the axle if it is super narrow. maybe who knows
Click to expand...
This is one of those things I have been concerned about also. There is a reason why the pumpkin was so centered on the 78-79 axles. I have a buddy with a newer super duty that I can pull measurements off of. Might start some CAD drawings to see.
Projectjunkie said:
As for the chassis cost... it shouldn't really be much more than the cost of the axles alone, but you get the suspension, steering, drive lines etc

That stuff adds up really quick buying it piecemeal

I'd expect to get a rolling coil spring chassis for 1500-2000 with fuel tank steering box and drive shafts, more if you are seeking out an elocker or specific gears

But, guys were also doing these swaps long before the super duty was a thing, they found a 4wd diff, a divorced 205, welded in hangars and found a place to put a steering box

These days we've got way better fab tools to go the work cleanly, but now it's hard to find those vintage parts:laughing:
Click to expand...
Around me any 4WD super duty is 6-7k minimum for a 4WD super duty. Plus I want a manual in this truck, a manual super duty commands a special premium down here. Guys think there old work trucks are built of gold, would hate to try and buy a diesel.
'84 Bronco II said:
A 1356 is really wide compared to a 205, I can take some measurements off mine if you want. Same goes for the coil spacing on the superduty axle, but it is super wide. You are going to have to space the factory coil buckets way outboard to match up with an '05+ axle.

Personally I think swapping the axles and steering box is way easier than a frame swap.

Not sure how different the frame is on a dentside versus a bumpside, but here's a good thread where the guy grafted an '05+ F450 suspension and axles on a '74.
Click to expand...
I think the frame on bump sides widens up past the cab a few inches making it a lot easier to do swaps, people have done it before. Apparently the coil buckets on super duty axles bolt on, so it should not be hard to build new ones. The thing I am worried about now is diff clearance under the frame, driveshaft clearance, and transfer case clearance. Most people I see doing this lift the truck pretty high to clear everything, But I would rather keep it as low as I can. Rattlesnake has a newer ball joint axle under his which have the diff pretty offset like newer super duty axles, although he is running a 205, and I think super duties have even more offset.
 
silly question,,,

so junk yards ship parts around nation wide. buddy of mine got 06 SD axle with everything for 295. so with that being said is it possible to just get a front clip? axle and frame . i never have looked into it but have seen a few on trailers going somewhere.

then you have the entire front clip figured out. again spit balling ideas.
 
Well this guy has a kit doing exactly what I want to do with lots of information and pictures:

F25 Gallery | Battle Born Brakes

www.battlebornbrakes.com www.battlebornbrakes.com

Probably not going to buy his kit because doing it myself will be more fun, but it looks like the front axle will work and have the ride height and clearance I want. I just need to take measurements to see if I can use a newer transfer case or if the 205 is necessary.
 
chaplinfj60 said:
silly question,,,

so junk yards ship parts around nation wide. buddy of mine got 06 SD axle with everything for 295. so with that being said is it possible to just get a front clip? axle and frame . i never have looked into it but have seen a few on trailers going somewhere.

then you have the entire front clip figured out. again spit balling ideas.
Click to expand...
Most dismantlers around here offer up super duty 60's for about 800-1500 bucks a piece. Grafting two frames together sounds like a lot of work to get right and will look super hacked up. Plus I think super duties use boxed frames vs the c-channel frame on my truck. That sounds like something that will end up in the hack fab thread.
 
I'm eventually converting a 74 F250 2wd to 4x4 with super duty axles. I'm doing the 1-ton swap on my 78 F150 4x4 first.

Looking at the frames of each, the engine crossmember can be moved in front of the axle for clearance but you may need to come up with your own engine mount towers/perches.

  • I'm using WFO's radius arm kit.
  • RuffStuff's frame outboard mounts to weld the rear of the radius arm mounts to
  • my frame is wide enough to use my stock coil buckets, if it weren't I think ballistic fab has the most out-boarded coil bucket (and i believe its adjustable)
  • On the axle end I'm bridging the bump stop pad to the stock coil location and putting my stock lower coil pad there.
  • The radius arms just bolt to the stock location on the axle.
  • using a Barne's trackbar mount on the axle end
  • RuffStuff trackbar mount on the frame end.
  • WFO Stock draglink kit
  • For the rear lift I have 4" deaver springs, factory block removed, and will be running the Bronco Air adjustable shackle flip: Shackle Reverse Brackets

I've been planning this for years, gathering parts, saving money, and doing a whole lot of talking about it. I won't be starting til this summer.

I don't know if this is helpful at all but here are pics of the crossmember situation on my 78 F150. Posting this because I think it will give you an idea of how far forward you can move the engine crossmember.. at least Ford did it this way:

IMG_2843.jpg

IMG_2844.jpg

IMG_2845.jpg
 
1. close enough
2. Find a FE360 pan from a 4x4, rear sump. ebay
3. All bump frames are 30" inside the full length.

Moving the crossmember away from the coil buckets leaves them less supported. Would have to plate frame and perhaps run a brace over the motor. Leaf springs didn't have this problem.

Assuming you use the bump 2wd frame, engine cross member can be easy as a flat piece of 2x6 tube. Up travel clearance only becomes an issue if you run small tires or hack the fenders for big tires. What tire are you planning to run?
You will also need to fab a stout but removable trans cross member, as the existing @ radius arms won't work with driveshaft.
Then a complete steering system.
I would not use a divorced case.
 
rattle_snake said:
1. close enough
2. Find a FE360 pan from a 4x4, rear sump. ebay
3. All bump frames are 30" inside the full length.

Moving the crossmember away from the coil buckets leaves them less supported. Would have to plate frame and perhaps run a brace over the motor. Leaf springs didn't have this problem.

Assuming you use the bump 2wd frame, engine cross member can be easy as a flat piece of 2x6 tube. Up travel clearance only becomes an issue if you run small tires or hack the fenders for big tires. What tire are you planning to run?
You will also need to fab a stout but removable trans cross member, as the existing @ radius arms won't work with driveshaft.
Then a complete steering system.
I would not use a divorced case.
Click to expand...
Planning on finding some tremor take offs (35's). Planning on swapping a manual, so was going to have to put in a new crossmemeber anyways.

Planning to copy the engine crossmember that you did in your build.

Going to have to locate one of those oil pans and puckup tubes.

Hoping to source a ford married 205, we will see how that goes.
 
LScout800 said:
1. Anyone who has swapped a set of '05 or later axles into one of these trucks, how far off were the super duty coil buckets from the dentside coil buckets? Wondering if I need to relocate the denside coil buckets if I went this way.
Click to expand...
Track width is about the same. Should be fine. Coils might be a little slanted though.

LScout800 said:
2. Is there a way to convert the 390 oil pan to a rear sump for differential clearance?
Click to expand...
Welder and time.

LScout800 said:
I found kits online that are like 500 bucks or so, so if there is a cheap (junkyard) way of doing this I would love to know. I would like to keep the 390 simply because I think they are cool, and it runs.
3. In terms of transfer case clearance, I know highboys were lifted because they had to clock them way down to fit between the framerails. I would like to run a 205 if I could find one, and if not likely a BW 1356 cause those are cheap. How would it fit between the framerails? Would I have to clock it way down to clear? This truck is not going to be a crawler, mainly something to tow my scout but it will see some trails and I do not want to lift it way high to get clearance under the transfer case.
Click to expand...
A 1356 fits in a Ranger with 32" (outside) frame rails. You'll be fine. A 205 is smaller still.
 
I don't think the 1356 is going to fit very well, AS says it does, fits in a ranger, but the 96-01 explorer guys have to notch their frame, or run the be4406 97-03ish tcase.

I recently crawled all under a 68 f100 with a np208, and while smaller than a 1356, was a tight fit.

Grab a tape measure and poke around in a wrecking yard.

A divorced np205 is a fine t case, and likely the right one for your swap in your frame, but getting scarce, nowadays you'll be getting it shipped on a pallet, no more at the local u pull...

I crunched all the stuff, and settled on a super duty frame for the reasons mentioned. If cost is your concern on that, post up your location and with the right search words, you might be surprised.

I was heading down the hold my pocket path at one point, but the aftermarket parts shot up in price, a sd60 link kit is $900 now, that's nice stuff, but you still need every last piece of the suspension and steering


Whatever you do, post pics:smokin:
 
Projectjunkie said:
I don't think the 1356 is going to fit very well, AS says it does, fits in a ranger, but the 96-01 explorer guys have to notch their frame, or run the be4406 97-03ish tcase.

I recently crawled all under a 68 f100 with a np208, and while smaller than a 1356, was a tight fit.

Grab a tape measure and poke around in a wrecking yard.

A divorced np205 is a fine t case, and likely the right one for your swap in your frame, but getting scarce, nowadays you'll be getting it shipped on a pallet, no more at the local u pull...

I crunched all the stuff, and settled on a super duty frame for the reasons mentioned. If cost is your concern on that, post up your location and with the right search words, you might be surprised.

I was heading down the hold my pocket path at one point, but the aftermarket parts shot up in price, a sd60 link kit is $900 now, that's nice stuff, but you still need every last piece of the suspension and steering


Whatever you do, post pics:smokin:
Click to expand...
I found a few threads and youtube videos around of guys doing what I want to do. There are np205s around, although expensive, searched for them through car part and got hits around here for them. I measured the 1356 I had in the pile, along with the 241 in my scout, and going by measurements on ORD's website I figured a 241 will fit in place of a 205, and I can get those all day for 1-200 bucks. A 1356 is too big by about 3-4 inches (I measured the case and also the distance from frame to transmission output). The hard part is adapting a dodge or chevy transfer case, but I will just have to find the right parts, np435s were put in everything. Found lots of guys building kits to do exactly what I want. I am almost done with my plasma table, so I will probably copy them and make brackets. Almost got my scout done enough to free up a spot in the shop, will be gathering parts next few months and hopefully be in a position to build the truck over the summer and have it ready for snow season next winter.
 
Sweet


Since you're thinking about a 241 t case....
There's a gm nv4500 in the for sale section in CA, guys have swapped them using the fe bellhousing:smokin:
 
Projectjunkie said:
Sweet


Since you're thinking about a 241 t case....
There's a gm nv4500 in the for sale section in CA, guys have swapped them using the fe bellhousing:smokin:
Click to expand...
Yes, I would have picked it up for this if it was not 700 miles away. I already have the 4 speed parts, will keep my eyes out for one in the future to swap in for that overdrive. Last I checked it was a simple adapter plate to use the FE bell.
 
Seller drives a heavy hauler all over the state, I betcha he could get it to you on the irate pony express, doesn't hurt to ask:beer:
 
Projectjunkie said:
Seller drives a heavy hauler all over the Country, I betcha he could get it to you on the irate pony express, doesn't hurt to ask:beer:
Click to expand...
FIFY.

It's a 60s Ford Highboy, Dana 24 T-case or GTFO.
I spent hours and hours in my dad's 67 F250 as a kid, brought me home from the hospital when I was born and I learned to drive in it. I finally brought it up from my mom's place last July.
20220726_152200.jpg
 
Coincidently the above picture is the property I grew up at in N CA and is only about an hour or so away from that NV4500 for sale on here.:grinpimp:
 
Where are you located?

I have a ‘90 F350 4x4 chassis sitting around. It’s got whatever auto trans and T case ford put behind their 460.


Edit: just realized it’s sitting next to my Dads 1969 ford 4x4, kind of funny.
 
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