Future of KOH 4400 chassis/car development?

I wonder if those IFS centered motors have the mass rotating or fixed outside so the tire can be stopped instantly against a rock or braking for example. Not sure how all this relates to ability to regen, etc?? Questions for more experienced minds.

Listening to that Engine reminds me how it would not want to stop from 11k rpm.

I keep bringing this up as much of the maintenance and breakage in a KOH rig is from stopping ...... stuff.

Edit: There is little consideration on stopping in a Bonneville car. If anything...hope it breaks free.
 
Menzies is prerunning the new Mason Gen 2 car with the interesting new rear diff config, sounds like they're figuring it out. Not tech heavy, but interesting to hear them talk about the dynamics a bit. The first video is more about the truck, the second video is prerunning baja. Though at about 10:14 in the second video they show a pretty cool shot of the steering. So many heims and bearings :laughing: . Seems effective though, and packaged nice and high in the chassis





The steering config from the second vid:

Mason Gen 2 - Steering Linkage.png
 
With the rams acting directly on the swingers, all those hiems on top should see very little load. Everything from the pivots down on the swingers needs to be beefy.

Twice the rams, half the load. Maybe. They look pretty short so the motion ratio might be higher than normal.
 
The linear ball screw actuator, in line with the steering shaft, that moves the crank arm for the mechanical link is very cool. Will be interesting to see how this holds up compared to a gearbox. With this 4 bar swinger setup, it seemed like it was much straighter through the high speed rough stuff. Probably very little bump steer through all steering and suspension travel.
 
93blackxj said:
The linear ball screw actuator, in line with the steering shaft, that moves the crank arm for the mechanical link is very cool. Will be interesting to see how this holds up compared to a gearbox. With this 4 bar swinger setup, it seemed like it was much straighter through the high speed rough stuff. Probably very little bump steer through all steering and suspension travel.
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It looks it has vertical swingers, if so, it'll have have some issues.
 
Tech Tim said:
It looks it has vertical swingers, if so, it'll have have some issues.
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Like? Curious.

There are thousands of I beam trucks out there with vertical swingers, zero issues if done right.

Getting the vertical movement on the inner tierod pivot is the only way to reduce bump steer through the steering sweep.
 
bdkw1 said:
Due to KPI and castor, the steering pivot on the knuckle changes hieght during its travel. You can have zero bump steer with the wheels straight forward. But turn the wheel and cycle the suspension.........
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Still not following. The steering arms on the knuckle swing in planes not parallel to the ground (i.e. angled as per the KPI and the caster) but the pitman arm, which the pass knuckle is attached to moves in a totally different plane (parallel to the chassis and about 30-45deg tilted down in the front) because it swings about the sector shaft. How does attaching the driver's knuckle to a link that pivots in yet a 4th plane improve teh situation vs, IDK, copying the plane of the pitman (at least you get symmetry that way) or the plane of the knuckle (which won't be perfect throughout travel but you can at least nail it at ride height or some other speciific spot in the travel range)

I would think that ideally you'd want the inboard ends of the tie rods to swing in a plane that's parallel with the knuckle plane for a given ride height (probably somewhere between ride height and mid travel).
 
arse_sidewards said:
Still not following. The steering arms on the knuckle swing in planes not parallel to the ground (i.e. angled as per the KPI and the caster) but the pitman arm, which the pass knuckle is attached to moves in a totally different plane (parallel to the chassis and about 30-45deg tilted down in the front) because it swings about the sector shaft. How does attaching the driver's knuckle to a link that pivots in yet a 4th plane improve teh situation vs, IDK, copying the plane of the pitman (at least you get symmetry that way) or the plane of the knuckle (which won't be perfect throughout travel but you can at least nail it at ride height or some other speciific spot in the travel range)

I would think that ideally you'd want the inboard ends of the tie rods to swing in a plane that's parallel with the knuckle plane for a given ride height (probably somewhere between ride height and mid travel).
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I feel like we're having to different conversations. Have you looked at the Mason steering system?
 
arse_sidewards said:
Are we talking about beams or the setup with a dozen links pictured above? :laughing:
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The swingset above. Or any A-armed vehicle with a rack.

Beams only came up as a reference to vertical swingers being a problem.

Beams do not have the same issues when turned if the inner pivots are in the right place.
 
arse_sidewards said:
I would think that ideally you'd want the inboard ends of the tie rods to swing in a plane that's parallel with the knuckle plane for a given ride height (probably somewhere between ride height and mid travel).
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But, circling back to this. Kinda but no. If you have any kind of camber curve a fixed inner will only match it at 1 spot in the travel. If you have any caster gain/anti dive, same deal.

Camburg tried that on their original TT design. It got cut off after a couple races.......
 
Vertical swingers rise at the outer ends of their travel, moving the tie rod out of the optimal range of motion.

This can be minimized with long swingers to keep the rise and fall to a minimum.... but that takes a lot of room.

Horizontal(-ish) swingers can be made to work almost perfect because you can mirror the travel of the steering arms on the uprights and the pitman arm, if using a box.

Have there been lots of vertical swingers out there being used and raced over the years? Yes. But it's not the optimal way to do it.


Beam trucks? Are we back in the 80s? :laughing:

I jest (mostly). Beams trucks are great for what they are, but they will never match the performance of independent.
 
Tech Tim said:
Horizontal(-ish) swingers can be made to work almost perfect because you can mirror the travel of the steering arms on the uprights and the pitman arm, if using a box.
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Reffer back to the only at one position in the travel comment.

Tech Tim said:
Beam trucks? Are we back in the 80s? :laughing:
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You shut your whore mouth!
 
Tech Tim said:
Vertical swingers rise at the outer ends of their travel, moving the tie rod out of the optimal range of motion.

This can be minimized with long swingers to keep the rise and fall to a minimum.... but that takes a lot of room.

Horizontal(-ish) swingers can be made to work almost perfect because you can mirror the travel of the steering arms on the uprights and the pitman arm, if using a box.

Have there been lots of vertical swingers out there being used and raced over the years? Yes. But it's not the optimal way to do it.


Beam trucks? Are we back in the 80s? :laughing:

I jest (mostly). Beams trucks are great for what they are, but they will never match the performance of independent.
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These swingers use a 4 bar linkage for each tie rod. I believe vertical swingers are typically a single link on each side of a common carriage. The 4 bar linkage is used to compensate for tie rod angle change due to KPI and castor through steering and suspension travel. As mentioned above, this reduces bump steer at other steering angles than just when they are straight.

 
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bdkw1 said:
You shut your whore mouth!
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:lmao:

Beam comments always trigger someone!

93blackxj said:
These swingers use a 4 bar linkage for each tie rod. I believe vertical swingers are typically a single link on each side of a common carriage. The 4 bar linkage is used to compensate for tie rod angle change due to KPI and castor through steering and suspension travel. As mentioned above, this reduces bump steer at other steering angles than just when they are straight.

Click to expand...


Interesting. Super tall swingers, it'll be interesting to see them swing and how they react.
 
93blackxj said:
These swingers use a 4 bar linkage for each tie rod. I believe vertical swingers are typically a single link on each side of a common carriage. The 4 bar linkage is used to compensate for tie rod angle change due to KPI and castor through steering and suspension travel. As mentioned above, this reduces bump steer at other steering angles than just when they are straight.

Click to expand...

That is super cool! Hadn't noticed the smaller swingers on the inside of the bigger outer ones. That can really change the vertical height of the TRE at that end to compensate. I had thought the two sides were connected down here. Be interesting to see how well it holds up over time.
 
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