Future of KOH 4400 chassis/car development?

All this bladder material is NOT a simple process. A lot of these polymers will not stick together so you have to "coat" with others that WILL stick and still resist the fuel. And probably 5X for insurance......... Auto fuel tanks can be blown (with no seams) from variants of Nylon...but Nylon absorbs water so ya have to protect the Nylon with others like HDPE and there goes simple....... A bubble for food packaging can contain 5-7 different layers of polymers to prevent migration of oxy, odor, etc. And some of those layers won't individually stick together so you have a add another layer that sticks to both. A potato chip bag can contain up to 11 different layers. (oils, UV protection, and an inside seal layer to seal a bag shut.... plus a glossy or matt outside surface so you will buy it.) Everyday stuff that people don't even think about .... so simple.... not. I can envision the process for bladder material...But you are going to inventory a ton of it as the process takes a while to "layer out what you want that gets dumped as not recyclable." Then you want to keep it running. (Simple answer)

And then...... Your CONTAINER CAN, can promote a wrinkle or fold to slowly weaken the whole structure. A true technology. You don't need much to envision it. $$$

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bdkw1 said:
Once you leave the rectangle shape price jumps dramatically. I'd say that bladder is closer to 20k.
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Well, i guess in the end, it comes down to how much is not burning to death worth to you. Nobody is going to blink at a 20k bladder.

I think if you're in the TT game, you're already a person who doesn't blink.

What they need is a chiller setup for the fuel. Might lower the temps inside the cab a bit...........................plus make a few more HP.
 
gt1guy said:
Well, i guess in the end, it comes down to how much is not burning to death worth to you. Nobody is going to blink at a 20k bladder.

I think if you're in the TT game, you're already a person who doesn't blink.

What they need is a chiller setup for the fuel. Might lower the temps inside the cab a bit...........................plus make a few more HP.
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Cell in front of the motor and the carbon can should do a lot to reduce fuel heating.

Cell in the back with an aluminum can and radiators blowing on it is just a bad time waiting to happen.
 
While talking about fuel cells. What is the new go to for baffles? I talked to Wayne, his baffles are done and gone, not available any longer. Are we back to home made stuff, oil bottles/wiffle balls/Gatorade bottles/etc. Or the ATL/Fuel safe Foam. Or is there something else that is getting used? I think the bigger the capacity the more the need for the baffles.
 
K5runer said:
While talking about fuel cells. What is the new go to for baffles? I talked to Wayne, his baffles are done and gone, not available any longer. Are we back to home made stuff, oil bottles/wiffle balls/Gatorade bottles/etc. Or the ATL/Fuel safe Foam. Or is there something else that is getting used? I think the bigger the capacity the more the need for the baffles.
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I hate it but I’m using foam. You HAVE to replace it every 3rd year. It breaks down into little pieces in time and it will go through a hydro mat. Hydromat only lasts 4 or 5 years as well just so everyone knows. I have two 30+ gallon cells worth of Altec baffles I’d sell. I don’t recommend them for racing however.

Those baffles seem to last forever without breaking down. Good for rock crawling. But they don’t stay still still on their own. They slush around with the fuel and tear up the bottoms of the bladder. Tear up your fuel pickups. I like them just fine for a crawler but had issues long term with them in the race cars.
 
JR4X said:
I hate it but I’m using foam. You HAVE to replace it every 3rd year. It breaks down into little pieces in time and it will go through a hydro mat. Hydromat only lasts 4 or 5 years as well just so everyone knows. I have two 30+ gallon cells worth of Altec baffles I’d sell. I don’t recommend them for racing however.

Those baffles seem to last forever without breaking down. Good for rock crawling. But they don’t stay still still on their own. They slush around with the fuel and tear up the bottoms of the bladder. Tear up your fuel pickups. I like them just fine for a crawler but had issues long term with them in the race cars.
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Ill be hitting you up for the baffles, Ill take them all.
 
JR4X said:
I hate it but I’m using foam. You HAVE to replace it every 3rd year. It breaks down into little pieces in time and it will go through a hydro mat. Hydromat only lasts 4 or 5 years as well just so everyone knows. I have two 30+ gallon cells worth of Altec baffles I’d sell. I don’t recommend them for racing however.

Those baffles seem to last forever without breaking down. Good for rock crawling. But they don’t stay still still on their own. They slush around with the fuel and tear up the bottoms of the bladder. Tear up your fuel pickups. I like them just fine for a crawler but had issues long term with them in the race cars.
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Ya , we ran into the same issue with the baffles. It would rub off tiny pieces of the inner bladder and clog up fuel filter in 100miles
 
On these fuel tanker long range gas guzzlers, is there any good reason to not run multiple cells with a transfer system into a primary high pressure fuel injection pump surge tank?
Use low pressure transfer pumps that can handle sucking air to get the last drop.
Cells can be scheduled for transfer for weight distribution advantage.
 
HYDRODYNAMIC said:
On these fuel tanker long range gas guzzlers, is there any good reason to not run multiple cells with a transfer system into a primary high pressure fuel injection pump surge tank?
Use low pressure transfer pumps that can handle sucking air to get the last drop.
Cells can be scheduled for transfer for weight distribution advantage.
Click to expand...
There have been a couple 2 tank cars. The Jimcos had dual cells. A few of the Dakar buggies had multiple cells. All that is just extra potential for problems though.
 
HYDRODYNAMIC said:
On these fuel tanker long range gas guzzlers, is there any good reason to not run multiple cells with a transfer system into a primary high pressure fuel injection pump surge tank?
Use low pressure transfer pumps that can handle sucking air to get the last drop.
Cells can be scheduled for transfer for weight distribution advantage.
Click to expand...
My friend used to run 2 tanks but eventually switched to a custom one from Harmon. It's just more electronics and **** to fail and still less capacity then a custom bladder.
 
I think Shannon Campbell had a removable second tank for his previous car that he would use during longer races.
 
Treefrog said:
I think Shannon Campbell had a removable second tank for his previous car that he would use during longer races.
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That was a whole generation of car ago. He had that when we could run tireballs. When no spare was back there he could bolt on his extra fuel capacity. That went away when they took our balls away and everyone went back to carrying spare tires.
 
bdkw1 said:
There have been a couple 2 tank cars. The Jimcos had dual cells. A few of the Dakar buggies had multiple cells. All that is just extra potential for problems though.
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Has anyone messed with Venturi type pumps to keep siphoning out of one tank in to another?
 
JR4X said:
That was a whole generation of car ago. He had that when we could run tireballs. When no spare was back there he could bolt on his extra fuel capacity. That went away when they took our balls away and everyone went back to carrying spare tires.
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:homer: So one could fill their spare tire with fuel and transfer it to the main tank before putting it into service?
 
JR4X said:
:laughing:

Doesn’t seem like the juice would be worth the squeeze but I guess you could
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Stick a bladder in there like a tube with it's own fitting and provide fuel pressure by airing up the tire.

I wonder if you can "just buy" an inner tube in a gasoline compatible material. Or if you can't would one last a race. :laughing:
 
arse_sidewards said:
Stick a bladder in there like a tube with it's own fitting and provide fuel pressure by airing up the tire.

I wonder if you can "just buy" an inner tube in a gasoline compatible material. Or if you can't would one last a race. :laughing:
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I bet it would last like a year.
 
HYDRODYNAMIC said:
On these fuel tanker long range gas guzzlers, is there any good reason to not run multiple cells with a transfer system into a primary high pressure fuel injection pump surge tank?
Use low pressure transfer pumps that can handle sucking air to get the last drop.
Cells can be scheduled for transfer for weight distribution advantage.
Click to expand...
This dual pump surge tank can solve, and clean up, a lot of problems. 1/2 gallon. I am not a fan of running high pressure fuel all over a rig.

fitechefi.com

50005 Go Fuel Dual Pump Force Fuel Surge Tank - FiTech Fuel Injection

Capable of supporting the fuel demands of a 1,600-hp engine (on gasoline) Equipped with two 340 LPH fuel pumps with internal regulators for reliable fuel delivery to high output engines Sturdy, versatile mounting bracket provides a side or bottom mount Increased fuel capacity over other...
fitechefi.com fitechefi.com
 
Back when Ultra 4 was actually doing several different types of racing, KOH, BITD, Colorado Hill Climb, Glen Helen short course, etc. we had like three different bolt on configurations for the rear of our old car. 1 KOH with a 42" spare kept up out of the way, 1 with two spare 37" tires and another with a 20 gallon cell with a 37" spare tire,or run with nothing back there to save weight for the Hill climb stuff.
The seperate cell idea was pretty easy to deal with since a cheap low pressure high volume pump could be run, we just ran for a while then turned on the pump we had a fuel over fill vent that ran from main cell to secondary that was lower than the actual cell vents. While in flight if you over filled the main cell it just returned into the secondary. Both vents were up higher and T'd together as well.

Now with mid cells and 60+ gallon capacities for most of the cars doing Ultra 4 that is a thing of the past. I do miss seeing these cars used as Swiss Army knives of racing.
 
JR4X said:
So did Jeff just come kick the hornets nest for fun and then piece out? Waters must not have been up to temp.
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Not enough time for fun.
I did have some time to open my laser box only to find out that they cut half my parts so focusing on getting the rest of the parts on the way.

In the mean time, the only thing I can come up with is battery tech appears to be on the rise.
In the future I think we will see more smaller battery packs that can be mounted all over and series or paralleled together depending on voltage of system, much like golf carts.
This will replace the giant coffin batteries that are vehicle specific and need complete disassembly or a forklift.
This allows for easier and faster repair of dead cells and weight for low vs high capacity discharge.
 
HYDRODYNAMIC said:
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Not enough time for fun.
I did have some time to open my laser box only to find out that they cut half my parts so focusing on getting the rest of the parts on the way.

In the mean time, the only thing I can come up with is battery tech appears to be on the rise.
In the future I think we will see more smaller battery packs that can be mounted all over and series or paralleled together depending on voltage of system, much like golf carts.
This will replace the giant coffin batteries that are vehicle specific and need complete disassembly or a forklift.
This allows for easier and faster repair of dead cells and weight for low vs high capacity discharge.
Click to expand...
I meant the Knowle Jeffrey. Not the hydro Jeff. Looking for the OG13 kind.
 
Try this for some future. Shows 500hp to front wheels with inboard motors. All wire so no gears fighting each other. Battery packs are realistic. Single ICE engine to the rear. Tech to steal from.

 
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