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DE ram with steering box AKA 4500 class steering migration

Ford on the left w 3 mounting holes
RHD JK on the right w 4 mounting holes.
1000002644.jpg
I didn’t realize that those were that similar. Now I’m kinda tempted to replace the ford box I just broke with a Rhd jk box.
 
Update on my trail rig version.

Radial dynamics 4.5 gpm pump.
Sweet servo (not Howe modified) with .220 bar. Ordered by mistake, meant to order .200 but said **** it, I’ll try .220.

Delphi 600 Xterra box with JK 3 turn internals, and depowered. Mechanical advantage to make it 2.75 turn from steering stop to steering stop on a kingpin 60 (so 35-37°?)

My old pump was stock and had truck spacing, the radial dynamics pump has the belt go on fine but once started it throws the belt off 1 rib so only 5 of the 6 ribs are on, so my test was short and in the garage only.

Sitting still, it doesn’t chatter, I have heard of the nightmare stories where it can chatter so hard just sitting idle it breaks a sector shaft with no steering wheel input. I did not have that, thankfully. If you steer stupidly slow, like trying to turn 1° more then where you are at you get a little chatter (back and forth motion.) Steering at a normal speed, the steering feels responsive, no chatter whatsoever and powerful.

Haven’t actually driven on road yet due the belt issue. I need to call radial dynamics and find out what bracket I need. From what I can tell my oem pump is a CB, same 3 bolt pattern as a TC, all 3 bolt holes are threaded. The radial pump is 1 threaded hole, 2 through holes. It did bolt up but the spacing is off. May be Camaro spacing? Idk, I’ll find out when I call. It’s dumb GM used 20 different variations, between spacing, shaft size, location, and pump type. Once I get the belt situated I’ll do an actual drive but so far I think I’m in a decent position…nothing horribly alarming turning the wheels in the garage.
 
Finally put some miles on it! Got it up to 75 mph with other cars next to me on the freeway and no one died. That’s a win!

I’ll throw the specs up again.
Radial dynamics 1750 psi TC pump w 6in pulley
Xterra Delphi 600 box with JK 3 turn L2L guts, depowered.

Sweet servo .220 torsion bar

Mechanical advantage on the pitman arm/steering arm to make it 2.75 turn steering stop to steering stop on a kingpin 60 so 35ish degrees?

It seems much more responsive then my old ram assist Xterra 3.75 turn box which I hated. That’s a win.

It doesn’t wander at speed, also another win.

Havent wheeled it yet to feel power when bound in the rocks compared to ram assist and a regular powered box.

The issue I do have is it appears to have some shakes when turning slowly. The video below shows how when I steer faster it doesn’t do it but slower it does. For science, I have 3 holes in the steering arm, I can move it in one more hole and it will make the ratio be 2.25 L2L and see if goes away.






The other issue is at slower speeds it feels “notchy” like sometimes everything moves freely, other times it feels like stuff is binding and it requires more input to get it to turn.

A few thoughts, is the box adjustment out of whack? My pitman arm is really close to the bottom of the frame rail, is there enough deflection that it’s hitting the frame rail and causing an issue? I can look into that.

3rd thing I just realized while typing. I didn’t fill up the box with PS fluid and cap it. That may not be helping with things jiving. Dumbass award. Should have remembered to do that.

So I’d say I’m 90% there, first shot! It drives fine enough to go down the highway, drive to the trail and go wheeling tomorrow but there are some nuisances I’d like to figure out long term.
 
Awesome work man, and cool testing video. As far as the twitch and notchy feel, I'll be curious to hear how it acts after the box is lubricated. Then if it still has the same feel, maybe mess with the gear mesh preload one way or the other just to see how it effects things.

Did you just end up deleting the servo barrel and welding the input in place like we were theorizing? Cool if that worked out somewhat as expected.
 
Yes, I just ditched it entirely. I have some theories after some reading.

It’s in the box….my WJ box/Xterra combo that ended up steering the wrong way was perfect, it’s smooth to the touch when turning the input by hand. This box isn’t. The JK box I received wasn’t in the best shape, and the Xterra box I pulled was definitely ****ed with. The WJ Xterra box was so perfect I didn’t wanna pull it apart, and the Xterra box I grabbed at the yard for the JK Xterra combo had the adjustment screw messed with and the teeth had heavy backlash marks and was hard to turn. I had messed with the adjustment and I’d say it was better but still had some tight spots. My guess it’s that’s what it is.

I have enough parts laying around I’ll mix and match em. Even if I have to go to a different pitman arm and build a new one, I will.

The goal was to not have to remount a new style box when I had my current one mounted, angles happy, etc. in the end, the “time saved” to keep the same box, ended up in no time saved. Oh well. I’m 90-95% there. I’ll get it dialed.
 
Ok, I pulled the box, filled it with fluid and adjusted it.

Here is how I adjusted it, I would turn the input by hand, lock to lock and made adjustments until it a tad tight where it felt difficult to turn by hand, then I backed it off to where it just wasn’t hard to turn, once I got it there I locked it down, then would hold the sector shaft and input and go back and forth quickly checking for backlash, got it to where there was no backlash or the slightest amount.

Got it driving and still shook, I marked where the original position was on the adjustment screw and made slight adjustments from there. I got it to shake less by tightening it a tiny bit but it appears no matter what adjustment I make it still shakes.

I then moved the steering arm hole to the closest position to make it 2.2 turn and the fastest setup, still shook. 2.75ish turn, still shook, I could slow it down even more to 3 plus turn but figured it wouldn’t make it better since faster steering is favored.

Any suggestions on what to look at next?
 
Not always. I was working on one car, a bellcrank setup. It had a heavily ported steering box and servo, just like the one jr4x posted photos of earlier. I could make it a depowered box by pulling off the end cap, removing the piston nut, and threading in a set screw into the lower vein hole. This would free flow the piston and isolate the two ports from each other.
with it driving both the box piston, and a ram (2.5x1.5x9) it worked perfectly. Paired with a psc1400 tc pump, 6” pulley, it could go lock to lock in 2 seconds, 3.5 turns, (~45 cu in displacement) and idled the motor around 900 rpm. When letting off the throttle, going into a corner, at race speed. It was still limited by flow. However, after every race, the box was toast. From stretching some part of the case(loose sector shaft to piston) breaking teeth, or destroying the servo in the box.

with it setup to not send pressurized fluid to the box piston. The steering was much faster. Still 3.5 turns obviously, but no lag. Lock to lock as fast as you could move you hands. Downside- it chattered the wheels. Not always. Was real bad when paired with a Howe TT pump. Switched out to a 4.5 gpm pump (5.5 inch pulley) and it was better. Custom made 7 inch pulley, not much change. settled on 6” pulley. Theory here was too much flow, causes the de cylinder to out run the linkages.
At this time, it would turn left to right great, and from right to about 2’0clock, great, chatter from 2 till 12, then fine till left lock. Changed torsion rods. From .185 to .205 to .235 , all without much change, .250 it was getting near no powersteering at all. Tried sweet/psc/Howe servos paired with the magic quick ratio manual box psc sold. No serious changes where had. Time for diving deep into the problem after the race season was up.
hydrodynamic this is when we tried a steering rack setup. First placed down, along side the trans, under driver, pushing a linkage to bell crank on the axle. This reduced the shaking in the spot it did by 1/2. This convinced me at the point of two things. It wasn’t steering box related. It was linkage related.
reducing the weight of the dynamic parts between the servo and the knuckle was key to solving this. and second, you could use nearly anything mechanical, as long as it could transfer the 28inlb that it takes to fully open the servo.
next step was a rack mounted to the axle,servo in the dash, 90degree box beside lower links,shaft to the rack, parallel to the hydro ram. No need for it to be one in the same unit. As the chassis had 3 degrees of roll steer in the links, flexing it out, we could have the shaft going to the rack input 3.5 degrees opposite steering input. Based again off 3.5 turns. Solved the steering chatter issues. But. 3.5 turns lock to lock, yuck. Reviewing the most successful setups that used this, they mostly use just a draglink to the knuckle from the box(three links fronts)
from there, it was a simple change to just chassis mount a rack, and use a cable. Downside, if the pump goes out, your going to have to stop and fix it, rather then push through to the end of the race.

Conjecture time. Ever compare a hydro steering valve with a Saginaw servo? The difference in operation is it uses a small displacement motor, to open the valve, instead of a steering linkage. But what if you could use both?
I think there is possibility, you could combine hydro valve, attached directly to a rack, and use a cable to the ram clevis (linear movement) and have ‘feel’, non-drifting wheel, and redundancy. if a cable breaks, it is just full hydro.
I am wondering if I start searching down the mechanical side of things.
 
06H3: why don’t my cookies taste like your cookies?

JR4X: did you follow my recipe?

06H3: no, used different ingredients.

JR4X: but I gave you the perfect recipe :confused: why didn’t you just do that?

Rinse - repeat - forever.

I’m glad you guys are trying the alternate parts. It saves me the time of trying things I have low confidence in. I think your steering box itself is NOT the problem. I bet it’s your un ported servo. You’re changing the things with the steering box that I would change. You are getting zero change in your shaking for your effort. Time to look at a different part of the system.
 
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06H3: why don’t my cookies taste like your cookies?

JR4X: did you follow my recipe?

06H3: no, used different ingredients.

JR4X: but I gave you the perfect recipe :confused: why didn’t you just do that?

Rinse - repeat - forever.

I’m glad you guys are trying the alternate parts. It saves me the time of trying things I have low confidence in. I think your steering box itself is NOT the problem. I bet it’s you’re un ported servo. You’re changing the things with the steering box that I would change. You are getting zero change in your shaking for your effort. Time to look at a different part of the system.
EXACTLY why I bought all the parts you said to get, lol. Now I just gotta make time to put it all together. As limited as my time has become I don't want to reinvent the wheel.
 
06H3: why don’t my cookies taste like your cookies?

JR4X: did you follow my recipe?

06H3: no, used different ingredients.

JR4X: but I gave you the perfect recipe :confused: why didn’t you just do that?

Rinse - repeat - forever.

I’m glad you guys are trying the alternate parts. It saves me the time of trying things I have low confidence in. I think your steering box itself is NOT the problem. I bet it’s you’re un ported servo. You’re changing the things with the steering box that I would change. You are getting zero change in your shaking for your effort. Time to look at a different part of the system.

I can order a ported howe modified sweet servo. I didn't because it appeared the "trail rig" non racing version was sufficient for us non racing folks.

See below, I screenshotted it because it wasn't quoting correctly from a different thread.

It seemed like this rig had success that Kevin put together with an off the shelf sweet valve. If the torsion bar is too thick would it cause shakes?

Either way, I can get a sweet servo modified by Howe. I could send them mine but I doubt they want it.




1777042595032.png
 
I can order a ported howe modified sweet servo. I didn't because it appeared the "trail rig" non racing version was sufficient for us non racing folks.

See below, I screenshotted it because it wasn't quoting correctly from a different thread.

It seemed like this rig had success that Kevin put together with an off the shelf sweet valve. If the torsion bar is too thick would it cause shakes?

Either way, I can get a sweet servo modified by Howe. I could send them mine but I doubt they want it.




1777042595032.png
We also did a Saginaw box on that one.

Before you spend the $1,000 dollars on another servo you might try getting lighter torsion springs and installing them yourself.
 
Another question for ya (that may already be answered elsewhere by pictures I haven't seen) - How stiff do you feel your whole track bar vs steering box configuration is? Are the joints in the drag link and track bar pretty fresh and tight?

I was just thinking to double check those essentials before diving deeper into the hydraulics. I could see there being funkiness if there's any slop between track bar and drag link, when the ram is doing all the work. I think it's unlikely that they are the issue, but worth double checking
 
I had my wife turn the wheel back and forth and I didnt feel any play in the track bar or drag link but my drag link could have some wobble in it due to it having a bend in it. I could try an anti wobble bushing.

I appreciate all the insight guys! I will check drag on the box via an in lb beam wrench which fw jeep suggested and for the wobble in the drag link.

Does sweet sell torsion bars only? I assume they are a pain in the **** to install? Has anyone ever gotten rid of the shakes with a lighter torsion bar? I am assuming not.
 
I had my wife turn the wheel back and forth and I didnt feel any play in the track bar or drag link but my drag link could have some wobble in it due to it having a bend in it. I could try an anti wobble bushing.

I appreciate all the insight guys! I will check drag on the box via an in lb beam wrench which fw jeep suggested and for the wobble in the drag link.

Does sweet sell torsion bars only? I assume they are a pain in the **** to install? Has anyone ever gotten rid of the shakes with a lighter torsion bar? I am assuming not.

If you have the room in your brackets, you can stick open end wrenches beside the joints to keep them from twisting. I don't recommend driving like that but it would be fine for the driveway test.
 
I had my wife turn the wheel back and forth and I didnt feel any play in the track bar or drag link but my drag link could have some wobble in it due to it having a bend in it. I could try an anti wobble bushing.

I appreciate all the insight guys! I will check drag on the box via an in lb beam wrench which fw jeep suggested and for the wobble in the drag link.

Does sweet sell torsion bars only? I assume they are a pain in the **** to install? Has anyone ever gotten rid of the shakes with a lighter torsion bar? I am assuming not.
Fwjeep knows or knew how to get those little torsion bars. I used to be able to just find them on Jeg, Speedway, Summit. But the search results are turning up zero.
 
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