Build Hummer H3 Build

06h3 said:
To me it makes perfect sense. If the shaft is at the very edge of the ram body, and has deflection it will deflect quite a bit more then if the ram shaft was 3in off the edge of the ram body. Is it ideal to set it up off? No, but it does make sense, and I’ve seen some whacky tie rod angles on full hydro.
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Still not following

In my head a 10" ram has roughly 5" of shaft per side and an 8.5" has roughly 4.25" per side. At full lock, 10" spaced to 8.5" will have 9.25" on the one side and 3/4" on the other. 8.5" will have 8.5" and 0" respectively. So at all positions, the 10" has more unsupported shaft showing. Enough to make a difference? Probably not, but I can see how it's stronger.

06h3 said:
IMG_7408.png


Here’s a local guy to me with an old werock car that’s now a trail rig. Idk if the angle ever gets straight. Kinda whacky.
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Well that's a lightweight buggy, not fullsize hummer. Also, that look like the correct way to do it. Ram further in than center. They look bad centered, but get straight at full lock either direction. If you mount the ram out from center, the angles get worse as you steer.

06h3 said:
what does a double sheer pitman arm gain me? My current EMF rod end is roughly 2in tall. It has 42* of available angle in one direction, a 7/8 heim is 2in width, has 27* of available angle in one direction, add top plate for double sheer, plus the head of the bolt I’m over 2in of height above the pitman….and have almost half the angle it can pull. It will hit the frame.
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OK, I didn't know you had a high angle tre.

But I'm talking a fabricated arm

Screenshot_20251124_075920_Chrome.jpg


Note the ability to "twist" the arm to get the hiem more aligned with the motion of travel so you don't need crazy misalignment. You could even run a low profile bolt to gain a little more.

06h3 said:
I will look into that, I’m pretty sure it will hit the frame. I’ll check.

Are pitman arm splines tapered?
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That's what I thought too

06h3 said:
I did some rough measurements, the pitman arm has 1in of drop. If I flip it I gain 2in. The head of the drag link end is roughly 2in. I may gain the height of a castle nut, but I’ll take anything I can get. I’ll report back.

Years ago each mod was easy, it was almost all wins for massive gains in performance. I’m at the point where everything seems to be a trade off. I understand why people get scope creep and would give up on this idea. ditch the box entirely, triangulated 4 link to ditch the track bar, might as well cut up the frame for more uptravel while I’m at it :laughing:
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06h3 said:
The splines of the sector shaft or the splines of the pitman arm? If it’s the splines of the pitman arm I can’t flip it
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Both. It's why I mentioned custom.

The arm above has the same type of effect.
 
YotaAtieToo said:
Still not following

In my head a 10" ram has roughly 5" of shaft per side and an 8.5" has roughly 4.25" per side. At full lock, 10" spaced to 8.5" will have 9.25" on the one side and 3/4" on the other. 8.5" will have 8.5" and 0" respectively. So at all positions, the 10" has more unsupported shaft showing. Enough to make a difference? Probably not, but I can see how it's stronger.



Well that's a lightweight buggy, not fullsize hummer. Also, that look like the correct way to do it. Ram further in than center. They look bad centered, but get straight at full lock either direction. If you mount the ram out from center, the angles get worse as you steer.



OK, I didn't know you had a high angle tre.

But I'm talking a fabricated arm

Screenshot_20251124_075920_Chrome.jpg


Note the ability to "twist" the arm to get the hiem more aligned with the motion of travel so you don't need crazy misalignment. You could even run a low profile bolt to gain a little more.



That's what I thought too
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Ok, maybe this will lead you to the answer.

why do you want the arms all weird when centered? Because when it’s centered you have more shaft in the ram. It’s more supported, you want the tie rod straight at its most vulnerable point. fully extended.

Same applies. If you turn your wheel 30* you have more shaft in the ram, being supported, the ram is still traveling let’s say 3in. So you have 1in of support on a 8in ram or 2in of support on 10in ram.
 
06h3 said:
Ok, maybe this will lead you to the answer.

why do you want the arms all weird when centered? Because when it’s centered you have more shaft in the ram. It’s more supported, you want the tie rod straight at its most vulnerable point. fully extended.

Same applies. If you turn your wheel 30* you have more shaft in the ram, being supported, the ram is still traveling let’s say 3in. So you have 1in of support on a 8in ram or 2in of support on 10in ram.
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It's not what's in the ram, that supported either way. It's whats out side Un-supported that the problem and the longer ram will have more shaft on both sides at every angle.
 
I will have to find the info I was referring to and report back, regardless, I need to focus on what’s next for my rig, make a plan and move on.
 
06h3 said:
I will have to find the info I was referring to and report back, regardless, I need to focus on what’s next for my rig, make a plan and move on.
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Ya, agree to disagree for now, I don't want to bog your thread down. It's the ram you're using and the ram I'm planning on regardless :laughing:

Do you have spare 7/8 hiem and spacers you could throw up there and see how much room you'd have?
 
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IMG_7449.jpeg


Happy thanksgiving everyone, I got in the garage at 5 this morning and went to work.

I decided against it hanging way off the axle tube, I cut the plate 2in, sucked it in, and now it’s a straight shot at full lock. I think it sits 5.5in off the edge of the axle tube (will confirm later) but that’s about average for the typical DE ram setup from what I have seen.

With that said, the plate is basically in line with the bottom of the axle tube.

I need more clearance. The shaft and tie rod sits at the old height but the ram and plate hang down lower.

I’m trying to grab a 1/4in, 1/4in there, it all adds up. The ram mounts welded to the ram housing sit just over a 1/2in tall. I cut off about a 1/4in . I’ll probably have to have them touched up with a mill at a local machine shop but that gets the mounting plate a 1/4in higher.

Then I cut up a spare pitman arm I had. I’m not convinced I’ll get much but I’ll waste a bunch of time and see if I can gain a 1/4in or 1/2in there. If I can get my ram mounting plate near the old tie rod height (about 1in to 1 1/4 in higher then the ram mounting plate) and the shaft/ tie rods higher than the old setup that’s a win.

It’s dumb that I will add hours of work for small gains but I think that’s what makes the difference in the end.

I get why people do full hydro, if the box and drag link weren’t there this would be a non issue and I’d have it mounted way up there.
 
Hey YotaAtieToo im telling Jake burkey he doesn’t know **** and the guy on irate knows more then him :flipoff2:

They hit **** hard, those buggies aren’t light, and they have incorrect angles when turned!!!

IMG_7567.png

IMG_7569.png
 
I think this is one of those things where on paper the "perfect" way to do it works better but in real life other things get in the way so you settle for what just works.
 
06h3 said:
Hey YotaAtieToo im telling Jake burkey he doesn’t know **** and the guy on irate knows more then him :flipoff2:
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Make sure mention my name, he will probably remember me from previous arguments on IG :flipoff2:

06h3 said:
They hit **** hard, those buggies aren’t light, and they have incorrect angles when turned!!!

IMG_7567.png

IMG_7569.png
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They look pretty close though. The big ass 14b diff is probably the limiting factor.

Maybe I oversold my point. My thoughts when building are try to make it as beefy or perfect as possible, but also realize when it's time to compromise for what the use is.

The point I was trying to make was that straight at full lock is supposed to be best, some may shoot for straight at 1/2 lock. There is also people who have set them straight when wheels are straight, but having the tie rods angled bawhen wheels are straight I'd really avoid.
 
on paper and in real life are always different.

I spent days trying to plot out the perfect 3 link front and 5 link rear just to eventually say fvck it and got it as close as possible with the least amount of other modifications as possible
 
Bebop said:
Why is that?
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more or less ram at full lock has the most shaft exposed/unsupported. It's a theory I've read. Makes sense to me.

Some people say straight tie rods when the wheels are straight but I definitely would never want the tie rods aimed back when the wheels are straight because then when you steer it only gets worse

More than willing to hear your theories since you guys always seem to be hard on stuff.
 
YotaAtieToo said:
more or less ram at full lock has the most shaft exposed/unsupported. It's a theory I've read. Makes sense to me.

Some people say straight tie rods when the wheels are straight but I definitely would never want the tie rods aimed back when the wheels are straight because then when you steer it only gets worse

More than willing to hear your theories since you guys always seem to be hard on stuff.
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I think that you want the tie rods straight in the position you'd be more likely to get a hard hit on.

At full lock I'm usually crawling and going pretty slow.
With the wheels straight or slightly turned I'm probably bombing really fast, thinking that I'm Erik Miller...

On my car I tried to put the ram as close to the center line of the axle as I could and the tie rods ended up slightly pointing forward with the wheels straight and the tie rods being straight at 15ish degrees of steering. At full lock they are definitely pointing back. Has worked good for me, I took out a tree at speed and it broke my high steer arms and the tie rods or the ram didn't care.

I have seen plenty of bouncers with tie rods and the wheels pointing straight due to packaging issues with Dana 80s and big covers on 14 bolts and they seem to work fine too.

I think the standard rams are really really strong and this would be a bigger issue with 10" rams and 50+ degrees of steering.
I'd be in the camp of "do your best and don't overthink it too too much", which is really what I did on mine.

My 2cts, I'm far from having a hard stance on this.
 
350TacoZilla said:
Pretty much yeah. I couldn't remember where I had seen it before vs mounting it down on the axle and tierod.
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Should be able to mount a double ended ram like that, if there was clearance. I suspect given the restrictions he has so far, there isnt anymore room in that area either.
 
Bebop said:
I think that you want the tie rods straight in the position you'd be more likely to get a hard hit on.

At full lock I'm usually crawling and going pretty slow.
With the wheels straight or slightly turned I'm probably bombing really fast, thinking that I'm Erik Miller...

On my car I tried to put the ram as close to the center line of the axle as I could and the tie rods ended up slightly pointing forward with the wheels straight and the tie rods being straight at 15ish degrees of steering. At full lock they are definitely pointing back. Has worked good for me, I took out a tree at speed and it broke my high steer arms and the tie rods or the ram didn't care.

I have seen plenty of bouncers with tie rods and the wheels pointing straight due to packaging issues with Dana 80s and big covers on 14 bolts and they seem to work fine too.

I think the standard rams are really really strong and this would be a bigger issue with 10" rams and 50+ degrees of steering.
I'd be in the camp of "do your best and don't overthink it too too much", which is really what I did on mine.

My 2cts, I'm far from having a hard stance on this.
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All makes sense, I wasn't trying to say straight at full lock the only way, just that I'd really avoid them pointing back when straight since it only get worse from there.
 
Any thoughts on a forward swing steering box? Would give you a bunch of clearance.
 
Yeah, I will hit the sway bar arm. I could probably redo the sway bar setup though, not sure if I want to do a forward facing pitman. I’ll see where I land on this pitman arm redo
 
I may have a flat 7" arm laying around. Not sure if the splines are the same.
 
06h3 said:
WJ?
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No I think it's a Waggy pitman. I can't remember exactly, I just remember wondering around the wrecking yard until I found one. It didn't work on my dads rig because it was too long and the head of the joint was still a problem. That was when I had a custom one made to put the joint top down.

I just looked at the kids WJ and it's about 1" drop. XJ is 2" or so, maybe 3".

Seems to me that some of the cars had odd pitmans on them too. Like a rise instead of a drop. Maybe I'll go look at the neighbors Camero.
 
That crocked steering cylinder is a myth that's been drug all over the internet for decades.
1. Most impacts(and drive time) are close to center where you want it strongest.
2. If you make one arm straight at full lock the other arm is at twice the angle of a centered ram full lock.
Just makes more extreme angles all around accept one arm in one spot.
 
I spent too much time fighting for a 1/2in here and there, but I think the effort is worth it, or hope so.

You can see the pivot point on the joint for the drag link is basically the same height. I have a big nut on the bolt and my clearance gain is about .75in. I went from 19.75 to 20.5, if I use a smaller nut I can gain a tad more.

The pitman arm is far from done but the layout is there. It’s also like 1/8 on an inch longer to get a tad more throw on the box.

I also clocked the pitman arm down about 14* so it can pull more angle. I have no concerns about maxing it out at full bump, but do at full droop

IMG_7620.jpeg

IMG_7621.jpeg
IMG_7622.jpeg
 
Here was the arm I built for the Dakota. Used a WJ base and cut out arms in different lengths till.i found my perfect setup then welded it all up. Added the down ward angle as well to helpmwoth heim angles and max droop.
KIMG2831.jpg

KIMG2954.jpg
 
Nice, I hope to do something similar when it’s all said and done.
 
Form&function said:
That crocked steering cylinder is a myth that's been drug all over the internet for decades.
1. Most impacts(and drive time) are close to center where you want it strongest.
Click to expand...

I don't see how an impact going straight is going put side load on the rod, I picture it pulling on the rod pretty straight.

What I envision bending rods (without hitting the rod it's self on something) is over shooting a turn with tire turned sharp. The outside tire hitting a rock or tree and putting force into the tie rod, and having the tie rod at an angle would seem to put more side load on it.


Form&function said:
2. If you make one arm straight at full lock the other arm is at twice the angle of a centered ram full lock.
Just makes more extreme angles all around accept one arm in one spot.
Click to expand...

What? The makes absolutely to sense.

The arms are the furthest forward straight. Turn left they both travel back, right, they both travel back. They never get longer....

06h3 said:
I spent too much time fighting for a 1/2in here and there, but I think the effort is worth it, or hope so.

You can see the pivot point on the joint for the drag link is basically the same height. I have a big nut on the bolt and my clearance gain is about .75in. I went from 19.75 to 20.5, if I use a smaller nut I can gain a tad more.

The pitman arm is far from done but the layout is there. It’s also like 1/8 on an inch longer to get a tad more throw on the box.

I also clocked the pitman arm down about 14* so it can pull more angle. I have no concerns about maxing it out at full bump, but do at full droop
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Do you really need those giant spacers? They seem way bigger than necessary.

You could also make an s-drag link to flatten you hiems angles out if that helps. Not sure if that would help clear the cylinder or not
 
YotaAtieToo said:
I don't see how an impact going straight is going put side load on the rod, I picture it pulling on the rod pretty straight.

What I envision bending rods (without hitting the rod it's self on something) is over shooting a turn with tire turned sharp. The outside tire hitting a rock or tree and putting force into the tie rod, and having the tie rod at an angle would seem to put more side load on it.




What? The makes absolutely to sense.

The arms are the furthest forward straight. Turn left they both travel back, right, they both travel back. They never get longer....



Do you really need those giant spacers? They seem way bigger than necessary.

You could also make an s-drag link to flatten you hiems angles out if that helps. Not sure if that would help clear the cylinder or not
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Yes I do, they pull a whopping 28* of angle, my old EMF high angle drag link end pulled 42* of angle, that’s why I clocked it at an angle of about 15* to reduce the angle at ride height, 28* will bind at full droop without the extra 15* of assistance.

if I make an S drag link it gets into the ram depending on how big the “s” is, I don’t have a ton of room between the drag link and ram, also, I try to keep my steering components straight as possible, I have pretzeled 1.5in .25 wall drag links and track bars with bends in them.

This is definitely 15 lbs of **** in a 5 lb bag with components that have to withstand massive forces. I upsized my track bar to 1.75in diameter and notched the diff cover to greatly reduce the bend I have in it to stop me from bending track bars.

I have 1 bend in my drag link now and it has internal structure to prevent more bending forces. Doing an S would 100% bend a drag link, now, technically a depowered box will take all the load off the drag link but I want it to still be structurally sound if I ever have an engine failure situation. The only thing that sucks more then a dead pull off a trail with minimal steering is a dead pull off the trail with completely failed steering
 
28* from center?

Man I just cannot see how those times can't get more angle than a tie rod end. Also every time I've had those long spacers you cycle the hiems and the body doesn't really hit the tabs on either side they just make them certain width for common applications.

sorry I hope you don't think I'm trying to be a know-it-all or point out obvious stuff but I just know how sometimes getting overwhelmed on something it's easy to miss little things you know.
 
YotaAtieToo

I appreciate it. It made me reconsider the heim steering, and if this is the end of where I stop modifying, I still gained almost an inch by doing it so I appreciate it.

I agree on the heim vs drag link end comment, but will say, I had to see it first hand to be a believer. The only good thing Canada has, is EMF and TMR lol

Those drag link ends pull 42* ONE WAY. 84* of total misalignment, the heim is 28* one way, so 56* of total misalignment.

First, I had issues with regular old Chevy ones binding, but even new and limited to not bind, I would wear out a regular ole drag link end every 6 months or so. These EMFs are like 8 years old now? I tightened them one time, they are still tight and kick absolute ass. I’m a believer in anything EMF.

The next step is to really get the old threaded insert cut out, new one in, and start cycling, if I can get it shorter, I will, but I think it’s kind of where it’s at, also, the higher I go, the more my angles are off for bump steer, right now it’s all in line.

A shorter nut can probably gain me another 1/8in or so.
 
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IMG_7763.jpeg


I am 3/8 on an inch from the old tie rod height at the low point of the skid. Ram shaft/tie rod height is about an inch higher than the old tie rod setup.

The ram sits a little closer to the axle tube then the old tie rod distance from the axle tube, the ram mounting plate sticks out about 3/4in more.

I have about 1/8 of an inch of room with the tall nylon nut. I know I can get a shorter nut, so in theory I could go up another 1/8 on inch or so. If I wanted to get stupid, I think I have a couple degrees left at full droop on the drag link end. I could shorten the misalignment a tad but it would be a ton of work for minimal gain.

Anyways, I’m now within 3/8 of an inch. I’ll bend it a little on some rocks and I’ll probably be right there lol
 
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