Future of KOH 4400 chassis/car development?

JR4X said:
Yeah he has to watch what he tells me because I talk to much. I’m not allowed to take my phone in the shop anymore when I go there. :laughing:
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Understandable.

There's some things those engines have to run due to the rules that you wouldn't want to run anywhere else. The solid non roller lifters being one. And because of it, they flood the lifter valley with oil. You don't need that with rollers.


redneckK20s said:
I can't remember where I saw a 700+ ci "crate" engine that started around $80k.
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I think mountain motors would be out for most. When you start getting into 5" bore space blocks and heads, they're literally bigger in size than a BBC.

Besides, GM makes a 1000hp BBC crate engine right now. Comes with a factory warranty. $30k
 
gt1guy said:
Besides, GM makes a 1000hp BBC crate engine right now. Comes with a factory warranty. $30k
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the ZZ572/720R Deluxe Crate Engine dyno chart looks better and saves you $10k

1741989672223.png
 
mobil1syn said:
i think its budget/comfort decision.

stepping outside the LS platform creates a lot of headaches and cost for the average person.
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The SBF stuff seems to be a better investment than an LS these days. Having to build 2 or more LS engines in a single season doesn't sound budget friendly. Buy once, cry once. You never hear JRX4 talk about his dad having engine troubles and that engine sounds angry.:smokin:
 
djljeep said:
We've seen a lot of dumb repairs in the pits finish top 10, but I'm not sure we've seen a motor swap take a podium spot yet
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Unless it changed recently, engine swaps are the only thing not allowed during the race, you have to finish on the same engine that took the flag. Though if you blow one up in qualifying you can change it before the main race.

Mike Johnson comes to mind as someone who blew up a motor in his 4500 Jeep, swapped one on the lakebed, and ended up still doing well in the EMC.
 
Bebop said:
They aren't. JR4X makes it sounds like every LS out there is locking up when he's only looking at competitive Ultra4 racers.
If you're building a cone dodger and you're planning to follow woody and the other crazies in the canyons of Utah, maybe there are better powerplants out there.
But if you're wheeling JV, or the PNW, or the SE or anywhere else, LS engines are the kings and everywhere.

Reddots are often viewed as the top of the line 2 seat crawlers and have LS engines in them. I haven't heard that they are blowing them left and right. And they aren't even dry sump.
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The LS motors are notorious for getting "clicky" at extreme angles, RedDot or otherwise.
 
Chkn said:
Gen 3/4 is fixed displacement.
Gen 5 is variable displacement.

He should have said LS oil pumps don’t reference anything.
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They have a pressure relief valve, right? So wherever that valve is referencing pressure.
 
gt1guy said:
No, I was trying to make it sound like an Accusump would solve "seconds" of oil starvation as was being discussed at the time.

But we do agree on the rest.



The RHS block is an impressive piece. If I was to build a LS from scratch, this is the block I'd go with.

www.edelbrock.com

RHS LS Aluminum Race Block (Ready to Hone) 9.240" Standard Deck - 4.120" Bore - 0.842” Lifter

RHS LS Block, Standard 9.240" Deck, .842 Lifter, 50mm Cam Bearing - Hone to 4.120"
www.edelbrock.com www.edelbrock.com




And the aftermarket that made it possible to build an LS without using a single GM part.



That's a FR9 CUP engine if I'm not mistaken. Are they running the McLaren ECU? I'd be very interested to know what they did inside the engine with not having to follow the exact NASCAR rule book. I also know they'll never say.

As I said a few pages ago, Ford, GM, Dodge and Toyota all make engines that are leaps and bounds better than any LS in every way.............................except price.




Ya, that looks like a Ford FR9.

SB2.2 was replaced with the GM R07.2. Everything is EFI now too.



I paid 16k for just a billet block. The rest adds up fast if you're working with the top end of parts.
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That rhs block is horrible,there are not many aluminium blocks that hold up.lots of people use a stock block with darton sleeves. In the ls world. But they are expensive. Noonan makes a billet ls block and they came out to koh last year,but I haven't seen one out yet in the 4x4 world.a 5 in bore space block is the same outside deminsion as a stock 4.84 bore space block.but you can get taller deck heights in a 5.0 blocks.sb2 and the rox motors are getting cheap and old cup parts are every where.a dart block with a good dry dump and a pan designed for off road should do well if the oil system in the block is modded also.we run a gen 1 sbc dart block afr23 degree spread port heads making 750 hp and spray 400hp of nitrous and get over a 1000 1\8 th mike passes out of it between rebuilds in our 3000 lb 78 monte carlo drag car.just hone rings and bearings.
 
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Outlaw yota said:
That rhs block is horrible,there are not many aluminium blocks that hold up.lots of people use a stock block with darton sleeves. In the ls world. But they are expensive. Noonan makes a billet ls block and they came out to koh last year,but I haven't seen one out yet in the 4x4 world.jgre has built a drag Noonan with a pro charger that is bad ass.a 5 in bore space block is the same outside deminsion as a stock 4.84 bore space block.but you can get taller deck heights in a 5.0 blocks.sb2 and the rox motors are getting cheap and old cup parts are every where.a dart block with a good dry dump and a pan designed for off road should do well if the oil system in the block is modded also.we run a gen 1 sbc dart block afr23 degree spread port heads making 750 hp and spray 400hp of nitrous and get over a 1000 1\8 th mike passes out of it between rebuilds in our 3000 lb 78 monte carlo drag car.just hone rings and bearings.
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I have no ****ing idea what you were trying to say in that mess. Zero.
 
It has been kind-of fun looking into the LS stuff. So this is a very uneducated view. At first I asked why the instant lockups when no oil pressure. I went to asking why necessary small clearances on smaller journals and why lighter synthetic oils. (To maximize the length of the squish, the clearance between the crank and bushing has to be small. Synthetic oils show best build up before the load squish. 0-5w oils= 160*f... 10-40 oil = 190*f) Clearances are roughly in the 0.0020 - 0.0030 depending on desire and cast vs alum block growth. 0.0020 seems tight but used a lot apparently. One link mentioned auto torque converters push on the cranks over 6k rpm and thrust roller bearings bearings installed at the front of the crank. But we are dealing with tight clearances here and steel rods. From Bonneville we learn about aluminum rods being softer on the cranks...especially with nitro. I didn't get too far but definitely saw where some opening and heavier oils might be helpful.

During that process there were several pictures of the blocks and heads and I saw huge holes for oil to splash back down toward the pan. So I minimized looking. But still would be a place to see where those are, the size, and where that oil is landing....or might be puking back up!

So that brought me back to the pan. I picked up this one thread that showed installing the pan on a LS with the pump pickup. It shows that the pickup is more centered than I thought. And the sump long to let stuff just slosh about. I looked for a side view ls drawing but I think one of you guys with parts could figure out the oil depth. Glue a wood block where the pickup would be ...and then mess with the attitude of the engine pan when we wheel... And also taking into consideration acceleration AND stopping. And the surging from front to back. Attitudes of 45* would be informational. Also remember that there is probably at least a good quart still in the upper engine area. I believe I remember using 5 gallons per minute as a guide. (And probaby why OEM went variable flow/volume.

Common in the SBC1 was/is trap doors for stopping. With all the knowledge many have about Fuel tank surges...we should be able to figure out a better plan. (FOR WET SUMP)

It is doing us all NO GOOD by just saying blewup/seized with out knowing the teardown results and thoughts why?? Builder specs and what the rig was doing before the issue would be useful added info. Don't be afraid to ask questions of the builder or driver. There are so many things that we don't know to question. It may ring the bell in someones mind.

I have resisted new because I have a ton of time, energy, and experience with the SBC1 and I set a goal of 500hp good enough. The ls was specifically designed by a room full of NASCAR builders and GM engineers for the 500hp Corvettes and new generations. Now it is 850ish OEM and, until lately, OEM resistance to completely new idea generation. So big bucks aftermarket for reliability above the discussed 600hp mark.

If moving the pickup is helpful, I bet everyone on this thread could accomplish this in their living room (garage). And seems too easy.....................(why)

EDIT: It might be helpful to know that the rails of the pan are the hardest to make in your shop. I have used boat pans as a start for new pans, but the rails seem thin for our use. I have recently bought a Ebay used dry sump pan that will make a great start for a "billet pan." I like to do that as I can fin both the insides and out on a bent to fit bottom plate for a little direct cooling....plus other do-dahs. No one that I know makes a true offroad pan.....????? (Whatever that is) The pan below seems way toooo deep for our rigs. Sumps would be different for front or rear engines. Rear engine dry sump pumps are damaged more by rocks. And rocks in the belts. Jason Scherer "fixed this" about 8 years ago with a cover and melted the belt. He was about 100 yards from a first place qualifier runaway finish. Useful learning. Because of mentioned LS oiling problems, he put red LED tape around the whole window so when the warning came he couldn't miss it.



 

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rims said:
They have a pressure relief valve, right? So wherever that valve is referencing pressure.
Click to expand...
Maybe semantics but yes and no. I don’t know Nivlac57 but sometimes I take issue with how he describes things. I know that he means well.

Gen 3/4 use a gerotor oil pump with a fixed displacement volume. The pressure relief valve uses a spring to regulate peak oil pressure and nothing else.
1742042950103.jpeg


Gen 5 uses a vane oil pump with variable displacement volume. The solenoid is controlled by the ECM to adjust the volume of oil the pump produces. The “feedback” that he mentions in the video isn’t for the oil pump’s understanding but to overcome the spring pressure allowing for variable displacement. The theory is that low oil pressure will result in maximum oil flow. Once there is adequate volume/pressure the ECM has the ability to overcome the spring tension and the ECM can modulate as it sees fit for AFM, VVTI etc.
1742043165694.jpeg



IMG_0399.jpeg
 
Isdtbower said:
It has been kind-of fun looking into the LS stuff. So this is a very uneducated view. At first I asked why the instant lockups when no oil pressure. I went to asking why necessary small clearances on smaller journals and why lighter synthetic oils. (To maximize the length of the squish, the clearance between the crank and bushing has to be small. Synthetic oils show best build up before the load squish. 0-5w oils= 160*f... 10-40 oil = 190*f) Clearances are roughly in the 0.0020 - 0.0030 depending on desire and cast vs alum block growth. 0.0020 seems tight but used a lot apparently. One link mentioned auto torque converters push on the cranks over 6k rpm and thrust roller bearings bearings installed at the front of the crank. But we are dealing with tight clearances here and steel rods. From Bonneville we learn about aluminum rods being softer on the cranks...especially with nitro. I didn't get too far but definitely saw where some opening and heavier oils might be helpful.

During that process there were several pictures of the blocks and heads and I saw huge holes for oil to splash back down toward the pan. So I minimized looking. But still would be a place to see where those are, the size, and where that oil is landing....or might be puking back up!

So that brought me back to the pan. I picked up this one thread that showed installing the pan on a LS with the pump pickup. It shows that the pickup is more centered than I thought. And the sump long to let stuff just slosh about. I looked for a side view ls drawing but I think one of you guys with parts could figure out the oil depth. Glue a wood block where the pickup would be ...and then mess with the attitude of the engine pan when we wheel... And also taking into consideration acceleration AND stopping. And the surging from front to back. Attitudes of 45* would be informational. Also remember that there is probably at least a good quart still in the upper engine area. I believe I remember using 5 gallons per minute as a guide. (And probaby why OEM went variable flow/volume.

Common in the SBC1 was/is trap doors for stopping. With all the knowledge many have about Fuel tank surges...we should be able to figure out a better plan. (FOR WET SUMP)

It is doing us all NO GOOD by just saying blewup/seized with out knowing the teardown results and thoughts why?? Builder specs and what the rig was doing before the issue would be useful added info. Don't be afraid to ask questions of the builder or driver. There are so many things that we don't know to question. It may ring the bell in someones mind.

I have resisted new because I have a ton of time, energy, and experience with the SBC1 and I set a goal of 500hp good enough. The ls was specifically designed by a room full of NASCAR builders and GM engineers for the 500hp Corvettes and new generations. Now it is 850ish OEM and, until lately, OEM resistance to completely new idea generation. So big bucks aftermarket for reliability above the discussed 600hp mark.

If moving the pickup is helpful, I bet everyone on this thread could accomplish this in their living room (garage). And seems too easy.....................(why)

EDIT: It might be helpful to know that the rails of the pan are the hardest to make in your shop. I have used boat pans as a start for new pans, but the rails seem thin for our use. I have recently bought a Ebay used dry sump pan that will make a great start for a "billet pan." I like to do that as I can fin both the insides and out on a bent to fit bottom plate for a little direct cooling....plus other do-dahs. No one that I know makes a true offroad pan.....????? (Whatever that is) The pan below seems way toooo deep for our rigs. Sumps would be different for front or rear engines. Rear engine dry sump pumps are damaged more by rocks. And rocks in the belts. Jason Scherer "fixed this" about 8 years ago with a cover and melted the belt. He was about 100 yards from a first place qualifier runaway finish. Useful learning. Because of mentioned LS oiling problems, he put red LED tape around the whole window so when the warning came he couldn't miss it.



Click to expand...


Probably too poors for this thread, but this is the LS pan I run that was made by Tilden and is no longer produced, it was marketed as an off-road oriented pan. I think it's bent 1/8" or 3/16" as the baseline, with the sump area doubled up for a "skid". A bit more capacity than stock but pretty low clearance still. And then this baffled/trap door setup. Some pictures I found...

s-l1200.webp


s-l1200-2.webp


s-l1200-1.webp
 
Chkn said:
Maybe semantics but yes and no. I don’t know Nivlac57 but sometimes I take issue with how he describes things. I know that he means well.

Gen 3/4 use a gerotor oil pump with a fixed displacement volume. The pressure relief valve uses a spring to regulate peak oil pressure and nothing else.
1742042950103.jpeg


Gen 5 uses a vane oil pump with variable displacement volume. The solenoid is controlled by the ECM to adjust the volume of oil the pump produces. The “feedback” that he mentions in the video isn’t for the oil pump’s understanding but to overcome the spring pressure allowing for variable displacement. The theory is that low oil pressure will result in maximum oil flow. Once there is adequate volume/pressure the ECM has the ability to overcome the spring tension and the ECM can modulate as it sees fit for AFM, VVTI etc.
1742043165694.jpeg



IMG_0399.jpeg
Click to expand...

I think we have 2 separate things going on and it's better to break it down. 1 is where the oil pump references pressure, 2 is how the oil pump controls pressure.

Starting with #2: Both types of pumps are trying to control pressure. Regular fixed-rate pumps have a pressure-relief valve that simply dumps excess volume to limit pressure. Variable-rate pumps reduce pumping volume instead, which is more efficient and takes less power to operate. It can also control pressure more effectively as being high-volume pump when pressure is below target, and not overpowering the pressure-relief valve at high rpm, which can be an issue on high-volume fixed rate pumps.

1: Looking at it from the block's perspective, having the pump sense pressure after the mains is better in case excess pressure is lost between the pump and where it's referenced. I don't know how much difference it really makes, as you'd expect a big leak to reduce pressure at the pump, too. But referencing pressure later is a more robust method to make sure the mains see the pressure you want.
 
rims said:
1: Looking at it from the block's perspective, having the pump sense pressure after the mains is better in case excess pressure is lost between the pump and where it's referenced. I don't know how much difference it really makes, as you'd expect a big leak to reduce pressure at the pump, too. But referencing pressure later is a more robust method to make sure the mains see the pressure you want.
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Regulated return vs regulated feed. I like the regulated return idea a lot for engine oil pressure.
 
For our little big cube Windsor a Stef’s pan is the ****! But they don’t make for the LS what they make for us :confused: It doesn’t show it in the picture but it comes with their windage tray. The sump sits in the middle of the pan. They do, do custom add ons too. 3/8” thick flanges, fixture welded. There is no way to retrofit a dry sump onto our car, there’s no space for it.

stefs.com

SBF 351 Windsor 9 qt, 8" Deep, Road Race Detomaso Pantera Aluminum Oil Pan 2947 - Stef's

Stef's 2947, aluminum, wet sump road race pan designed to fit Ford 351 Windsor Dart, SVO and World blocks using an internal oil pump. This pan is for 1971-75 Ford Pantera or a 1971-1992 DeTomaso Pantera. Pan has 3/8" billet end seals and 3/8" thick side rails for leak free performance. Oil Pick...
stefs.com stefs.com

IMG_7519.jpeg
IMG_7516.jpeg
IMG_7515.jpeg
 
SLOWPOKE693 said:
I see a Nascar style engine with all the nascar oiling stuff on it in that picture. Has anyone tried an SB2.2 or whatever engine they call it now in a U4 car instead of an LS? If so, are they getting the same results
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For my own knowledge what is the nascar oil stuff that you see?

I think I am looking at the ID designs accessory package ( ID Designs) and a Dailey Engineering dry sump ( Dailey 351 pan and dry sump ) and the associated plumbing to scavenge from the valve covers etc... Is there anything else?
 
Anyone remember All German Motorsports where they ran a BMW M5 engine in a Class One car? IRRC they used some Dinan top end parts and tune, but left the bottom and other internals alone. 600hp'ish and all aluminum construction.
 
Roc Doc said:
Anyone remember All German Motorsports where they ran a BMW M5 engine in a Class One car? IRRC they used some Dinan top end parts and tune, but left the bottom and other internals alone. 600hp'ish and all aluminum construction.
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Yes, but when Martin built the Jimco TT, it had an LS in it. Between the Beemer motor and the Xtrac trans in the 1 car, he was ready for something a little cheaper to run.
 
Good additives so far. MY pressure loss is about after 5-7 seconds going up a dune at 5-6k rpm. I have never looked climbing during wheeling, but a co dog caught the pressure loss up a dune after 40 years.... And only one rebuild and not due to oil. What about you?

The 45* trapdoors give good ideas. A buddy builds and machines at Dinan, Ill ask for thoughts. He needs to visit here anyways. (We are always learning)

To minimize height, I am thinking KICK OUTS on a new engine build... and recognize that many of the pans do NOT run those completely to the rear. They taper to the rear to keep the pick-up puddle deep upon on accel or "climbing." (?) I am really big on moving the pickup further back or modifying the pan to move that rear puddle further forward...by reducing the "reservoir" volume behind the pickup. The Stefs pan, above, captures some of that. I looked at one of their pans in the past, and for me, saw no difference than what I had. But maybe I wasn't looking close enough. Before, I focused more on the scraping and windage deal to get oil down in the pan. Now, getting the oil to the pickup in all cases.

There is value at going to a SEMA or PRI as all these guys show most of their products or who's they are using and you pick up the small adders that keep us in our living rooms at night making mods to what we have. Last year Nothing stood out on the pan search...until this thread. I don't mind overthinkng and then moving back to a robust solution.

We will get thoughts from the pump thread, and wondering where that relief volume goes. Following some of the Power steering relief tech that Eric Amato at Radial Dynamics is pioneering that volume should be/could be piped back into a cooler-filter- and pick-up puddle. I another area, there are pressure spikes that can be siphoned off in nano seconds to another pressure line to minimize hydro-exploding feedback to servos and pumps. If we could separate crank pressure from valve train pressure, a loss in either might open valving to the other system to make things up. It depends where the problems start, but the point is to keep thinking, lookiing, asking.......................... a couple mtr mfgs seem to be doing better than others.........doing better...............Usually dry sump where the tech is in tall and narrow reservoirs of maybe 15 gallons. Here, the future is basically known. (Yeh. I am part of the resistance
 
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