Future of KOH 4400 chassis/car development?

2 pages consumed to just one rule...and nothing advancing 4400...or other class either. Just getting around a rule. Just commenting on the class-less society. I wonder if that is SoCAl induced. Look at all the Score and Dez classes, and Bonneville Timing Association classes. Everyone gets a ribbon. I get it though. Keeps the recreational guy in a slot to play in. I have my slot also. The whole steering thing took the fun out of that slot.
 
2 pages consumed to just one rule...and nothing advancing 4400...or other class either. Just getting around a rule. Just commenting on the class-less society. I wonder if that is SoCAl induced. Look at all the Score and Dez classes, and Bonneville Timing Association classes. Everyone gets a ribbon. I get it though. Keeps the recreational guy in a slot to play in. I have my slot also. The whole steering thing took the fun out of that slot.
If you don’t like what we’re discussing steer us in the right direction (pun intended). It could be considered on topic to 4400. Another failed piece of **** Howe rack is what took Loren out at KOH. The winner has almost the exact same setup as mine just better done because Joe Thompson did it and he’s a world class fabricator.

What’s your steering beef?
 
Every year it's the same thread. If it says 4400 or koh in it, it's going to get anything and every koh tossed in.

Speaking of steering.

I've wondered if you could get a box mounted on the axle to work? Probably ******ed as un sprung wieght is the enemy of go fasting. But for dumb internets sake. Could you get a steering shaft parallel to the upper link to hold up? I don't see why not, it's just a tiny driveshaft. Might have to use some better materials than what is commonly used.
 
If you don’t like what we’re discussing steer us in the right direction (pun intended). It could be considered on topic to 4400. Another failed piece of **** Howe rack is what took Loren out at KOH. The winner has almost the exact same setup as mine just better done because Joe Thompson did it and he’s a world class fabricator.
Quite a few TTs are getting steering box retrofits in the recent years.
Racks don't hold.

Speaking of steering.

I've wondered if you could get a box mounted on the axle to work? Probably ******ed as un sprung wieght is the enemy of go fasting. But for dumb internets sake. Could you get a steering shaft parallel to the upper link to hold up? I don't see why not, it's just a tiny driveshaft. Might have to use some better materials than what is commonly used.
Seen that done with a rack directly on the axle.
 
I've wondered about that also.

So they ran a steering shaft parallel to an upper link?
Easy with the steering. We’re testing ISDTBowers patience.

Yes it was bluetorch fab’s 4500 car from way back. Had the TT rack mounted directly on the front axle. Had a reverser in the dash with a DS that ran from under the dash to another reverser under the drivers seat. Then the last DS ran along the drivers side upper link to connect to the rack. Here’s a pic from my steering thread

Still picking and choosing what to migrate. Not enough time to move all the good chat from there to here

It had been mentioned before about possibly running the full trophy truck rack from Howe on a solid axle rig. I completely forgot Shawn and Kevin took off next to the BlueTorch 4500 car at the Every Man Challenge this year. Here is what the two look like side x side. Photo courtesy of ShotsbyTbars4. Found the pic looking for something for somebody else inquiring about our steering.




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How well did it work? Sounds like a nightmare to get everything situated and working right compared to what you came up with.

Edit: And your setup.looks way less fragile. :smokin:
 
Easy with the steering. We’re testing ISDTBowers patience.

Yes it was bluetorch fab’s 4500 car from way back. Had the TT rack mounted directly on the front axle. Had a reverser in the dash with a DS that ran from under the dash to another reverser under the drivers seat. Then the last DS ran along the drivers side upper link to connect to the rack. Here’s a pic from my steering thread

****, here I thought I was smoking crack thinking it might work :laughing:

Have you guys ever contemplated moving the box to the axle? The only benefit I see is no panhard, but is that even a benefit?
 
****, here I thought I was smoking crack thinking it might work :laughing:

Have you guys ever contemplated moving the box to the axle? The only benefit I see is no panhard, but is that even a benefit?
That picture was taken Feb 2015 so it’s way old news now. No way would I want the box on the front axle. I’d do the bellcrank thing like the JHF car or Duane’s Jimmys4X4 car before trying to fit all that stuff on the housing. Just a quick envisioning in my head and I don’t know how you fit it on the axle in a car you want low slung with lots of up travel.
 
......Everyone gets a ribbon......

There's the solution, a participation trophy to all! Now it doesn't matter what class you are in, you still win!


I've wondered about that also.

So they ran a steering shaft parallel to an upper link?


There's been a few that have done it.

Another one is the bell crank system, I think someone mentioned bellcranks earlier. It has been used in various desert classes for years. The steering box sits under the driver's set (or wherever the link connection point is) with a push rod going forward to a bellcrank on the axle that transfer the forward/backwards motion to left to right motion.
 
That picture was taken Feb 2015 so it’s way old news now. No way would I want the box on the front axle. I’d do the bellcrank thing like the JHF car or Duane’s Jimmys4X4 car before trying to fit all that stuff on the housing. Just a quick envisioning in my head and I don’t know how you fit it on the axle in a car you want low slung with lots of up travel.

Like I said, just a hair brained idea.

I like the set up you guys run, better than regular hydro assist, but only slightly more complex, yet far less complex than a bellcrank, or any other silly setup that we're discussing.
 
you bring up a excellent point on cage tube size. this is wild out there thought but, is there a way a person can build in solid works the exact car that a guy brings up to tech and it could be ran through some sort of program that tests the strength of the chassis design, not the tube size per say.
Like all FEA, unless you have real world numbers to put into it, all its going to give you is a pretty picture. The amount of possible impact angles and impactor shapes makes doing FEA on a cage a pretty tall task.
 
Like all FEA, unless you have real world numbers to put into it, all its going to give you is a pretty picture. The amount of possible impact angles and impactor shapes makes doing FEA on a cage a pretty tall task.
Case and point, Jesse Jones Geiser that he went for a swim with. It landed upside down on a rock that was 2' in dia. The whole weight of the truck was placed on 1 roof cross brace tube. Obviously the tube failed and got ripped out. Lots of people thought that a tube getting ripped out was bad. But, they both walked away from that crash. There really isn't a good way to predict all the fun ways we can **** **** up.
 
Now we are back on topic. And a good one. Recent Steering Problems

Howe is the only one with a 6 or 7" throw Rack, which seems necessary for IFS builds...using racks. The problem is that they were designed for a pinion that is horizontal. They were designed for 2wd buggies and trucks. Where a rack has to reside in a IFS is directly in front of the Diff case, which interferes. So all designers turn that rack so the pinion is up...which works...sort of. In the original configuration the top and bottom flat surfaces ride on a Teflon or UHMW skid. Most of the feedback from the uprights link which is vertically up and down (suspension travel) and those skids "can take it". The links from the uprights are also generally inline with the rack. There are only slight angles from turning and upright movement from front to back (minimal). In the 4x4 IFS configuration, the skids are not generally inline and only taking the offset pressure from turning. There is also a twinting effect whee the shuttle is actually "in line" but the "rack is not. It wants to lock. The now, top and bottom, surfaces are generally raw with no skids , but greased. Before portals, and early on, it was very common for the feedback to break all 4ea 5/8" bolts holding the rack. The racks are now indexed into the top bulkhead, so all the bolts see is droop torque with no shear. So now we know the limitations of the Howe designed, and others racks.

It is not necessarily the "****ty" rack. It is the "****ty" application of it. A 'rebuild" is about the same cost as a new one $3,800.

There is some shining light with portals is that it has allowed the crew chiefs to flatten the arms and shafts in the IFS because they get the ground clearance from the Portals. (Scherer) This reduces some offset angles to the rack...... But.

This has been a known problem for years. Some have tried to take on just the re-thinking of the rack design. And it is very apparent at both KOH and the desert that portals stress the steering systems even greater. As a starter, it would be good to know if it is the gearing feedback, or the 4" vertical offset, or the added weight increasing the pressure on the racks. If portals are going to be a thing, then something has to happen soon. Portal owners!!! Check your parts and figure out where the extra forces are coming from!!

I think I heard that Lorens rack blew out the seals in the cylinder. I have already had that discussion with Eric Ammato, Radial Design, how to buffer or relief valve the cylinder, if possible, from those new big hits. This might be OK to the rack guys but the SA hydro guys a killer. Literally.

The other common option out there is the standard OEMish steering box linked over to a swinger set that then has arms to both uprights. It is the favorite for the desert Trucks and Truggies. They overcame swinger failures when going to 4x4, and now again adding the portals. I fully expect the better solutions to come from the desert group as way more responsive to $$$$ needed to fix a problem. Whether we, as a KOH community, get to learn from that....Who knows.....But they would not be afraid to change something really quickly.

Joe Thompson has made a swinger design survive all the Gomez'. And the brothers just survive the hits and wait for more. I do believe that Joe is waiting for the thought to deal with the feedback from portals before rushing to them.

It was reported during Bronco testing in JV that the engineers had fully outfitted the steering assemblies with sensors to check pressures and forces. It is probably unknown if the KOH Broncos this year had the 74weld billet rack body upgrades. But they are now taking orders.

So: On the list for 4400 2024. More robust steering assemblies ... at least for IFS.


EDIT: It should also be remembered that SA cyclinders only take offset loads from steering. Not from articulation. So an easier cat to slay.

And on the old forum, bringing in rotary steering to a rack mounted to a SA was discussed. There was a lot of bump steer issues on articulation. Even with a rotary cable as used in some busses. A cable abot 1" in dia but would curve 90*. Pretty neat. but found to not work in models.
 

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On that topic - Joe is actually side loading the ram bodies with articulation with his configuration. He solidly fixes the ends of the shaft to the chassis, and has the body acting as the "rack" sliding laterally in the chassis. Then it has one link that anchors it to the chassis to determine the rotation of the body, and a "drag link" from the steering box to the body. And he can use that pivot link to intentionally have the tie rod pivot points more fore/aft in the chassis as it travels. Pretty genius setup.

He's made his latest ram bodies in house, but I believe it was just so he could hone them to size after welding versus starting with a finish-honed cylinder



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The other common option out there is the standard OEMish steering box linked over to a swinger set that then has arms to both uprights. It is the favorite for the desert Trucks and Truggies. They overcame swinger failures when going to 4x4, and now again adding the portals. I fully expect the better solutions to come from the desert group as way more responsive to $$$$ needed to fix a problem. Whether we, as a KOH community, get to learn from that....Who knows.....But they would not be afraid to change something really quickly.

Joe Thompson has made a swinger design survive all the Gomez'. And the brothers just survive the hits and wait for more. I do believe that Joe is waiting for the thought to deal with the feedback from portals before rushing to them.

It was reported during Bronco testing in JV that the engineers had fully outfitted the steering assemblies with sensors to check pressures and forces. It is probably unknown if the KOH Broncos this year had the 74weld billet rack body upgrades. But they are now taking orders.

Can you clarify “swinger set”? I’m not sure my terminology lines up with that.

The 3 4600 Broncos that swept the podium in the EMC all have 7” stroke Howe racks mounted upside down with a $2,000 dollar chain box to get the motion from the steering column into the rack which is pointed forward and on the passenger side. It works but it must not be great because I’m working with Loren and John to remove the rack and put a steering box in instead.

Have you seen my IFS steering with a steering box? I’m using the ram as the rack with an anti rotation device. This only works this easy because of how wide our OE diff is. Joe has a different solution but I would not call it a swing set.

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Since positive feedback steering with the ability to take a hit at warp speed and pinky steer through a rutted out turn while sipping a latte is not applicable to 4400 class, maybe we should revisit portals since everyone needs portals.

First off the poors need to understand that they can still compete but they will be at a huge disadvantage unless they can run portals. Half the race is just having a vehicle that will not breakdown regardless of how bling it is, so poors still have a chance on Dana 30's with 42" stickies, well maybe not.

Since 74Weld portals are the gold standard for now, lets look at the 4 gear race portal ratio of 1.63 or 1.45, for simplicity lets say they are 1.5.
Currently we have IFS cars running 40"s direct drive with RCV's and they hold up within reason.
Currently we have IFS cars running 40"s portaled at 1.5 with RCV's and they hold up with nearly zero portal issues and gear wear.

40" Tires X 1.5 = 60" Tires

The drivetrain can now handle 60" tires. Doesn't mean the rest of the car can. Control arms will rip off. Steering racks and boxes will blow up. Tire manufactures are too slow to keep up with new sizes. People are afraid to make that big of a jump in tire size.

The old HydroDynamic buggy was fun to drive because with 54" TTC Claws it would absorb and roll over anything, similar to monster trucks with planetaries and tires taller than the driver that can land a 33' vertical jump. I bent a wheel hitting a 3' rock at around 25MPH trying to get off the race course, it sent the front end straight up, all I could see was the sky. Pulled over expecting to see the control arm gone and oil everywhere. Everything was fine except for the wheel but I was only running 10PSI so the tire flexed and the sidewall, possibly the tread bent the wheel and the tire was fine.

Moral of the story is we should see a minimum of 50" light weight normal width stickies next year with high offset wheels in the 24" range to keep rotating mass as low as possible and package larger brakes and uprights. Substantial IFS/IRS A arms will be needed as 4 links will hit the tires while turning the larger tires. 3" steering cylinders for added force in the rocks and higher HP steering pumps for speed.
 
I think I heard that Lorens rack blew out the seals in the cylinder. I have already had that discussion with Eric Ammato, Radial Design, how to buffer or relief valve the cylinder, if possible, from those new big hits. This might be OK to the rack guys but the SA hydro guys a killer. Literally.
JR4X has 3 reliefs on his 4500, one on each high pressure line in the system.
 
JR4X has 3 reliefs on his 4500, one on each high pressure line in the system.
Makes sense, if you hit something hard it's better for the hydraulics have something that will "give" before you spit out a seal or split a hose.
If running a normal double-ended cylinder, a crossover relief would probably be a good idea as well, although if you're running that in conjunction with a rack, would that break the rack if something pushed hard enough to hit the relief on the cylinder? Or would it just spin the steering wheel?

Aaron Z
 
Crossover relief on a rack = bad idea cause it's gonna break some ****
Crossover relief on a full hydro = bad idea because your tires are gonna move from where they're pointed at.

I had Eric Amato from RD build me a custom orbital valve with 3 integrated reliefs in it. Super compact. Love it.
 
JR4X has 3 reliefs on his 4500, one on each high pressure line in the system.
That is true. It definitely saves parts from exploding on impacts. You have to direct the pop offs back into the reservoir because that’s the low pressure side meant for returning fluid.

The relief burst is only a fraction of a second and a small volume. We run it through the cooler on its way back to the can to keep everything cool. The new little one has a much better scrub radius so we started with a single relief on the pump high pressure line to keep the pump from taking spikes.
 
I'd rather break a pump or blow a seal than ending up with my wheels turned at 20 degrees while I'm driving at 70mph in the desert...
That doesn’t happen. The relief only relieves the psi spike above the set pressure before resuming normal operation. The steering wheel is going to spin in your hands if the ram lines relieve but it won’t take the wheels to the mechanical lock in an instant. Just keep your thumbs out of the spokes.
 
That doesn’t happen. The relief only relieves the psi spike above the set pressure before resuming normal operation. The steering wheel is going to spin in your hands if the ram lines relieve but it won’t take the wheels to the mechanical lock in an instant. Just keep your thumbs out of the spokes.
On a straight relief like you have, sure.

On a crossover like arse_sidewards is suggesting, all the volume that is taken from one side of the ram is sent to the other side. Bad idea.
 
An idea I had if I did another 4500 was a bell tank, but use a manual steering rack instead of a box. I had some bar napkin sketches, but got out of the game before i took it further.
 
On a straight relief like you have, sure.

On a crossover like arse_sidewards is suggesting, all the volume that is taken from one side of the ram is sent to the other side. Bad idea.
I hadn’t thought of that but yeah, it would actually shoot the wheels one direction as the displaced fluid would go straight to the other side of the ram feeding the motion instead of just dumping the excess pressure momentarily.
 
Swinger Set Steering:

Swinger sets work off of a parallelogram idea. The "bottom" of the parallelogram is fixed to the frame. The top of the parallelogram can be any distance away from the bottom depending on how much travel sideways you want. The two sides rotate around the bottom pivots. A drag link from a Power steeriing box can attach along those side pivots anyplace to amplify the motion ratio from the pitman arm to the top links which are usually attached to the steering links. Kibbetech and PSS worked together on this Raptor upgrade "swing set." trick is to keep the swing set happy with offset links to the uprights, Kibbetech Instagram. I think UFO was doing swing before coming up with his own system,,,?? Lots of moving parts. But simple parts.

Why I was thinking the tech is over there. Loren has had stuff built there.

Because of all the arcs, I think, it gets exceedingly tough to simulate IFS geometry (Ackermann for sure) and why (Dallas) avoided....at his level. We have Ackerman requirements. But this design seems like it would work similar to a rack. PSS has just announced a much sturdier steering box so I think we will see more of this in Ultra4. Classes included. There are several designs on this theme.

I did find the Blue Torch steering pictures (about 6-7) if anyone wants to follow it. Was that also similar to the IFS crawler that also got built up in Reno for walker? Or was that also Bell Crank?
 

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A few years ago Loren and I wee looking for a better way to get steering around a front motor. He moved his engine over significantly to help snaking the steering linkage to ...whatever. I found this from a buggy and snatched it up for show and tell. Chain boxes or drives are actually pretty common. Used at the firewall to relocate the rod going forward. There is a teflon shoe near the center of the box that can be adjusted for tension on the chain.

Some of you might have been involved with Lorens multitude of ideas. .

I also bought this 1/2" drive Tight Reach for $140. It allows 14" offset with a torque rating of 225 ft lbs. The chain is really tight...for now.
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Keep the info, ideas, and pics coming. We are killing it!
RAckOffset box.jpg
 
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I'd rather break a pump or blow a seal than ending up with my wheels turned at 20 degrees while I'm driving at 70mph in the desert...
You kill a seal or bend a tie rod or something and the effect is gonna be the same. If I'm gonna hit something big enough to move the tires then I want that movement to happen by opening a valve that's made for it, not by irreversibly modifying whatever component in the system is the weak link.

Say you hit a 24" rock in a flat field. The vehicle is gonna get jerked sideways and try to pivot about that rock as it goes over it regardless of what you do with the steering wheel. Having the steering pointed somewhere dumb for the short instance of time it takes to get over that rock and for the driver to point the wheel back where he wants shouldn't matter much.

I'm not saying that if you have a 1500psi system your relief should be 1600. It should probably be more like 3500 or something. Just enough to protect the system but not enough to ever use it in normal circumstances but enough to be the fuse. I think it'd be harder to size the valve "right" for a system with the steering on the front of the axle vs on the back of the axle.
 
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