2014 6.7 CP4 anyone have experience?

[Tiha]

New vcv. No change.

I think I am at the point of another cp4 or pcm?

Cp4 is stupid. It turns it should pump. Even if it is pumping air. And if it was just air I should see a blip on my rail pressure right?
Yet nothing.

So I thought, what if it isn't spinning at all.
Since I am headed towards pulling it out.
Got the vacuum cover off. Verified timing is correct. Shot a video. Pump is spinning.

I'll let it stew a couple days but I will probably warranty out this cp4. Unless someone can point me a different direction.

 

[90supra]

Does it have to be timed right to get pressure built up? I really don't know and am probably asking a stupid question but from what I've read at this point you've checked everything.

I don't even know if "timing" is a thing with these. Just want to see resolution if/when I have issues.

 

[Tiha]

Does it have to be timed right to get pressure built up? I really don't know and am probably asking a stupid question but from what I've read at this point you've checked everything.

I don't even know if "timing" is a thing with these. Just want to see resolution if/when I have issues.

It actually does not need timed right to build pressure. I just rechecked because someone asked me at some point.

But the timing was supposed to eliminate noise or vibration or something like that.

It is a piston pump. It turns and it builds pressure. It is that simple.

Unless an inlet or outlet valve is stuck open stopping it from building pressure.

 

[CarterKraft]

Sounds like you are calling the suction valve is what I am calling the VCV. Everyone has their own terms it seems.

It has been electrically checked. That is why I ordered a new one. Everything checks out. The PCM is trying to control it, it has voltage.

It is either dead, or something inside the pump is.

Not sure what else can cause zero pressure.

I agree, the pump is stupid, it turns, it pumps. I keep looking at it from an electrical issue, but it can certainly still be a hydraulic issue.

It needs current to work. Have you checked to see if it is pulling any current during cranking etc.?

 

[CarterKraft]

It actually does not need timed right to build pressure. I just rechecked because someone asked me at some point.

But the timing was supposed to eliminate noise or vibration or something like that.

It is a piston pump. It turns and it builds pressure. It is that simple.

Unless an inlet or outlet valve is stuck open stopping it from building pressure.

The timing is so the injection even occurs at the point of fuel pressure increase, no wasted injection cycles. The lobes on the camshaft in the pump align with the firing order. Not required to build pressure I would agree but at low RPM it might effect delivered fuel volume and will likely throw a code.
Our newest engines can't be a tooth off or the engine ECM knows and will derate.

 

[Tiha]

It needs current to work. Have you checked to see if it is pulling any current during cranking etc.?

According to forscan it is using 1.2 amps while cranking. If you unplug it then it reports open circuit.

Do this is a piston pump. I need to find a breakdown again but really it is like a cylinder in an engine. Has to have basically an intake and exhaust valve.
If either of those are bad then compression is zero.

Gonna call supplier Monday. Warranty this cp4 out.

 

[CarterKraft]

According to forscan it is using 1.2 amps while cranking. If you unplug it then it reports open circuit.

Do this is a piston pump. I need to find a breakdown again but really it is like a cylinder in an engine. Has to have basically an intake and exhaust valve.
If either of those are bad then compression is zero.

Gonna call supplier Monday. Warranty this cp4 out.

I suppose that is accurate but I would also not thought it possible to get a bad NEW pump.

In other words the probability of both pumps failing, but not catastrophically is pretty wild right? When that happens I usually try and go above and beyond, not saying you haven't.

 

[Tiha]

I suppose that is accurate but I would also not thought it possible to get a bad NEW pump.

In other words the probability of both pumps failing, but not catastrophically is pretty wild right? When that happens I usually try and go above and beyond, not saying you haven't.

Exactly right. I can't believe, or don't want to believe it is a bad pump out of the box.

I think I have tried hard enough by now.

If I had the truck at a Ford dealer I'm sure they would have done a second pump a long time ago.

 

[Tiha]

I found a halfway decent diagram of the CP4.

Just for kicks, because at this point the warranty process is started, but I would imagine I have a problem in what they are calling the adjuster?

I suppose it could be a one way check ball, or even the internal pressure relief.

Kind of think if it was a check ball I would still see some kind of pressure increase in the rail? So leaning towards what they call the adjuster.

I have no idea if I will ever get to find out, but I am gonna ask.

 

[Tiha]

Of course warranty is not going to be easy.

Spent some time on the phone with the supplier.

Went through all the troubleshooting I have done.

All he wanted to know is the code I am getting. Which is P2291. Injector pressure low while cranking.

He says, before we swap the pump. I need to check a few things.

I hate this, I knew warranty would not be easy but that is also why I went through so much troubleshooting already.

The things he said to check, check for oil leaks. Not sure how that applies, but I have no oil leaks. He wanted me to do an oil change. I will think about that one.

VCV, which he kept calling the pressure regulator, Check, I put a new one in, he was happy with that. He said they do come dead out of the box frequently.
Wiring, I did check that and he was happy with the testing I did.

PCM, same, he was happy with the testing I did.

Now the Pressure sensor on the rail. He says I need to change it first. And of course he threw in that i should have done that already. He says that is almost always the problem. Yeah heard that before, but I hope he is right.

When I unplug the rail sensor, pressure reads 29,000 psi on the scan tool. I asked, shouldn't the truck start then? He said it might but normally no. Because the computer is not seeing the sensor. That doesn't really make sense to me. But okay, now I have to jump through their hoops.

Maybe I will get lucky and it will run.

In edit, google found exactly what he was telling me.

P2291 is a diagnostic trouble code of the Ford 6.7L Powerstroke1. It means that there’s a problem with the high-pressure fuel injection system, and the pressure is too low. The powertrain control module (PCM) has detected an insufficient degree of oil pressure needed to control the high-pressure fuel injection system. Common fixes include replacing the pressure control sensor, getting an oil change, fixing an oil leak, and checking for issues with the gaskets.

But even more interesting, that link takes me to a 6.4 page

 

[CarterKraft]

Of course warranty is not going to be easy.

Spent some time on the phone with the supplier.

Went through all the troubleshooting I have done.

All he wanted to know is the code I am getting. Which is P2291. Injector pressure low while cranking.

He says, before we swap the pump. I need to check a few things.

I hate this, I knew warranty would not be easy but that is also why I went through so much troubleshooting already.

The things he said to check, check for oil leaks. Not sure how that applies, but I have no oil leaks. He wanted me to do an oil change. I will think about that one.

VCV, which he kept calling the pressure regulator, Check, I put a new one in, he was happy with that. He said they do come dead out of the box frequently.
Wiring, I did check that and he was happy with the testing I did.

PCM, same, he was happy with the testing I did.

Now the Pressure sensor on the rail. He says I need to change it first. And of course he threw in that i should have done that already. He says that is almost always the problem. Yeah heard that before, but I hope he is right.

When I unplug the rail sensor, pressure reads 29,000 psi on the scan tool. I asked, shouldn't the truck start then? He said it might but normally no. Because the computer is not seeing the sensor. That doesn't really make sense to me. But okay, now I have to jump through their hoops.

Maybe I will get lucky and it will run.

In edit, google found exactly what he was telling me.

P2291 is a diagnostic trouble code of the Ford 6.7L Powerstroke1. It means that there’s a problem with the high-pressure fuel injection system, and the pressure is too low. The powertrain control module (PCM) has detected an insufficient degree of oil pressure needed to control the high-pressure fuel injection system. Common fixes include replacing the pressure control sensor, getting an oil change, fixing an oil leak, and checking for issues with the gaskets.

But even more interesting, that link takes me to a 6.4 page

It's worth doing I bet. These pumps are so simple I'd bet it's near impossible to have no output with out failed hard parts (rotating assembly of the pump).

 

[Tiha]

It's worth doing I bet. These pumps are so simple I'd bet it's near impossible to have no output with out failed hard parts (rotating assembly of the pump).

I keep thinking the same.

But here is the next problem, That pressure sensor is new, part of the contamination kit. AND I am getting the same PSI reading as I was before.

So I am thinking about a wiring problem.

Probably not as easy as swapping the sensor, but yeah why not at this point.

 

[CarterKraft]

I keep thinking the same.

But here is the next problem, That pressure sensor is new, part of the contamination kit. AND I am getting the same PSI reading as I was before.

So I am thinking about a wiring problem.

Probably not as easy as swapping the sensor, but yeah why not at this point.

Have you checked for power,ground and pull up voltage at the sensor connector?

 

[Tiha]

Have you checked for power,ground and pull up voltage at the sensor connector?

Nope, I have never done anything with that sensor besides unplugging it.

It was swapped with the new fuel rail. I need to find wiring diagram for it.

Not sure if I should just grab another sensor, I still have my old one. But getting the same readings, I figure either they are both bad, or I have a wiring issue.

Or maybe it will make no difference at all.

 

[CarterKraft]

Nope, I have never done anything with that sensor besides unplugging it.

It was swapped with the new fuel rail. I need to find wiring diagram for it.

Not sure if I should just grab another sensor, I still have my old one. But getting the same readings, I figure either they are both bad, or I have a wiring issue.

Or maybe it will make no difference at all.

Could you use your old rail and use shop air on it to see a change?

 

[CarterKraft]

Could you use your old rail and use shop air on it to see a change?

Rig it up to a grease gun for 10k psi?

 

[Tiha]

New sensor in.

Interesting note. My 2016 reads 320 psi KOEO. New bosch sensor reads 332 psi, KOEO as well.

No change in reading while cranking, still dead.

Got me to thinking, so I put the old sensor back in. Plugged the return line to the tank. My psI went from 42 to 96 and stayed. That proved the sensor and PCM are reading pressure changes.

So I said screw it, I cranked it with the return line blocked off. Thought well if the cp4 is building pressure it will probably blow a return line or something.
Nope, nothing.

I need to call supplier again. It has to be the pump.

Was thinking about throwing another PCV in it, but this is ridiculous. Can play this what if game all day.

Video with oil switch PID and new pressure sensor

 

[Tiha]

To my surprise, they are shipping a new pump with return label included for the old one.

Different guy, different response. I totally expected to have to return mine for testing before they would replace or repair it.

 

[350TacoZilla]

No experience with these myself but I thought the big thing was to add a cummins CP3 to help the CP4 along with a filter\water separator setup?

 

[Tiha]

No experience with these myself but I thought the big thing was to add a cummins CP3 to help the CP4 along with a filter\water separator setup?

The CP4 is a version of the CP3. The CP3 will not fit in the valley of the 6.7 powerstroke. Where as dodge has a conversion to replace the CP4 with the proven CP3. It just won't fit in the Ford.

DCR has a new style pump but it just came out and has not been proven yet.

 

[350TacoZilla]

The ones I have seen mount the Dodge pump where the 2nd alternator would be and retains the cp4, it just adds the cp3 to the system to prolong the cp4's life.

 

[Tiha]

The ones I have seen mount the Dodge pump where the 2nd alternator would be and retains the cp4, it just adds the cp3 to the system to prolong the cp4's life.

I think you are talking about a dual fueler kit.

That might work great for a lot of people. I am trying to stick mostly OEM so anyone can work on it anywhere. I wanted to travel the USA in this pickup. But as things go on it seems less and less likely I will keep it.

gotta get it running first. I hope that happens in this Calander year.

In edit, I have already paid for all the parts I need to make this run right. But at least one of these parts I received is bad out of the box.

Right now it is about trying to find which part AND making the supplier replace it.

I already bought a pressure sensor and VCV that I should not have had to buy trying to find the suppliers problem.

 

[Tiha]

It runs!

Where to start?

New pump in, It started. So it was the pump, it was always the pump.

This is the first crank after priming fuel system. I actually didn't expect it to start.

It started before the pids changed. Just an interesting note.

Now trying to figure out what useful information I can pass along. After this video I put the rest of the engine back together.



Okay trying to add something that hopefully will help someone else in the future.

I had mentioned that I read where the VCV, or FCV (the valve on top of the pump) Whatever your acronym is, That is buzzes or makes noise.

They do, 3 out of the 4 I had did make a buzzing noise. But only 1 of them was ever loud enough to hear over the fuel pump.
The others you had to wait till the fuel pump was done and the VCV stays energized for another minute or two after that.
You can hear it, if just barely and I think you can feel it.

Now another interesting point. I did not tear down any of the pumps so I cannot confirm cause, but I can visibly see the condition explained.

I had read in one place a person posted that if you loosen a high pressure injector line and fuel shoots up in the air you have a bad inlet suction valve.
Took a video and I can see a difference in the new and old pump.

If that was the cause it would certainly explain the Zero psi rail pressure. Also explains that the new pump was defective in the way my last pump failed.

I loosed the fuel line. then KOEO and took video.
I did not tighten the line or change it in anyway when I took the second video with the new CP4. Maybe not as dramatic as i expected but certainly a difference.

Here is the old, 0 psi rail pressure pump.



This is the new pump that is working like it should.

 

[Tiha]

Truck is back together. I am not sure it is done yet though.

On the test drive I was getting a puff of black smoke when stepping on accelerator. I am deleted but never had that before.
Also every now and then I feel a random shake. Might be ac compressor, but I am super sensitive right now. Don't trust this thing yet.

Truck is starting pretty good. I wouldn't say it is right yet. But very close.

I think I have a lazy injector, or maybe even a fuel leak. #4 looks a bit off spec. But when I got back from my test drive #4 and #8 both were still wet. Makes me wonder if I have a HP line leak, or even a return line leak. I cleaned them off with brake cleaner and need to drive again to see.

Certainly need to put some miles on it and check again before I condemn #4.

Last note, finally got my idle hours. Honestly thought it was a lot worse than this.

is that 20% idle time? Did I figure that right? Idle divided by engine hours.

 

[Tiha]

I got to put some miles on this truck yesterday.

Confirms my belief, Don't screw with the CP4 or anything until you have to.

It is not the same truck. It runs different, it drives different.

Maybe it still has some relearning to do, time will tell.

Still have a small fuel leak around 3 injectors. Going to retighten the high pressure lines, but I think it is the return lines. I will try new 0-rings. If that doesn't fix it, then another new fuel return harness is going in.

It starts right up like I think it should, hasn't started that good in years. From cold start it idles clean. Sounds good.

but driving. Off the line it feels way more aggressive than it was. You barely touch the pedal and it just wants to go. But on the upper end it does not have the snort it used to.
Boost is still the same.

Also get a puff of black smoke at take off. Need to recheck fuel trims. Hopefully it is just one lazy injector.

I am not sure what I could have done different. I bought decent brand name motorcraft parts. I feel like I would have the same luck with the cheapest crap out there. Maybe spending more and buying brand new would be better.
Maybe this is normal and they don't always run the same.

One interesting note, the replacement CP4 they sent under warranty, it had test paperwork with it, the original did not. Maybe that is another sign of something.

 

[Tiha]

Just an update for kicks.

I almost trust the truck again. It has been running fine.

But still, have way more power off the line than I used to and it doesn't run the same on the upper end. Trying to talk myself out of screwing with it.

Haven't watched fuel pressures during a hard pull like I said I would yet but I am convinced it is CP4 related.

Interesting thing is, I am getting just a tad over 20mpg. This truck has never done that well.

So am I doing damage? I wonder. At best I think I hit 18.5 once right after deleting it. But usually averaged around 18mpg.

 

[CarterKraft]

Just an update for kicks.

I almost trust the truck again. It has been running fine.

But still, have way more power off the line than I used to and it doesn't run the same on the upper end. Trying to talk myself out of screwing with it.

Haven't watched fuel pressures during a hard pull like I said I would yet but I am convinced it is CP4 related.

Interesting thing is, I am getting just a tad over 20mpg. This truck has never done that well.

So am I doing damage? I wonder. At best I think I hit 18.5 once right after deleting it. But usually averaged around 18mpg.

So its stronger of the bottom and weaker up top?
Timing issue?

 

[Tiha]

So its stronger of the bottom and weaker up top?
Timing issue?

Thought about that but nothing has changed.

CP4 timing is perfect, wouldn't affect fuel output if it was way off.

Nothing else has changed. I reloaded my delete program. Stock fueling. Thought that would change and I am sure it has reset everything, but it hasn't relearned to where it was.

If you give it 1/4 throttle it will spin the tires. Head snapping takes offs.

Entrance ramps, passing, it kicks down, sounds like it is going to take off but never really does. Have boost, all the specs read the same. just less get up and go.

I really need to do a hard run watching rail pressure, but no hurry to warranty out another cp4.

 

[CarterKraft]

Thought about that but nothing has changed.

CP4 timing is perfect, wouldn't affect fuel output if it was way off.

Nothing else has changed. I reloaded my delete program. Stock fueling. Thought that would change and I am sure it has reset everything, but it hasn't relearned to where it was.

If you give it 1/4 throttle it will spin the tires. Head snapping takes offs.

Entrance ramps, passing, it kicks down, sounds like it is going to take off but never really does. Have boost, all the specs read the same. just less get up and go.

I really need to do a hard run watching rail pressure, but no hurry to warranty out another cp4.

Boost VGT issue?

 

[Tiha]

Boost VGT issue?

Boost looks great, at least the gauge responds just like it used to. No problem building boost.

But typical diesel fashion it takes fuel to make power and I am certainly not putting the same amount of fuel to it.

My tuner has 5 canned fuel settings. I should probably try to up it some and see what happens. I just think the pump is not meeting spec.