Workshop/benchtop CNC mills

[rockmup]

Titan has turned in to a bit of shill....or maybe he always has been. He's pushing for whoever is willing to pay him at this point. In the beginning he was 100% HAAS. Then something happened there and he starting hyping DMG...and the Tormach must have sent him a pile of money.

His educational stuff is a great resource, but I take any product/machine recommendations he has with a grain of salt because chances are he's getting paid to recommend them.

Of course he is, he's a business, HAAS wouldn't get on board with his mission after having told him they were, so he found someone who would. Nothing wrong with that at all, and his information is still solid.

 

[bdkw1]

As much I would love to grab a Hass mini, 3k+ lbs, 3-phase, and overall size are a complete no go.

Mini mill's are single phase, Super mini's are 3 phase.

Also, I find the Titan guy annoying as fuck. He is much better at marketing than machining.

 

[subybaja]

I thought everyone had heard about seeker now. Dude built a 74' steel motor/sail boat from scratch in his back yard....in oklahoma.

Here's the channel.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCj_XaV1ss-qdD-lPUtTEcXw

This a few years old now, but it's a good intro to what took place in the first 7 years.

Damn you! I've avoided that guy's channel for years! Now your stupid synopsis link makes me want to catch up.

 

[JNHEscher]

The smaller tormachs use their TTS system. It does look like they have BT30 holders now too....I'm guessing for the newer, higher powered machines like the 1100 .

Yup. The 770 and 1100 have the BT30 and servo swap option.

Only reason I'd like to keep the R8 spindle is so I can put tooling directly in a collet. This keeps the total tooling stick out shorter and much closer to the bottom spindle bearing and allows the milling head to sit lower for less stress on the Z axis.

 

[bdkw1]

Yup. The 770 and 1100 have the BT30 and servo swap option.

Only reason I'd like to keep the R8 spindle is so I can put tooling directly in a collet. This keeps the total tooling stick out shorter and much closer to the bottom spindle bearing and allows the milling head to sit lower for less stress on the Z axis.

Normally I would disagree as endmills pull out of R8's pretty easy, but with the power that thing has I doubt it will be an issue.

 

[JNHEscher]

Normally I would disagree as endmills pull out of R8's pretty easy, but with the power that thing has I doubt it will be an issue.

Yup. Do the BT30 holders keep the tools from pulling out? I need to look at their assembly. If the mill machines steel without too many problems, I'll probably mill plenty of steel.

 

[bdkw1]

You can get regular endmill holders with a set screw in the BT30 flavor, just like a real mill.

 

[JNHEscher]

Mini mill's are single phase, Super mini's are 3 phase.

Also, I find the Titan guy annoying as fuck. He is much better at marketing than machining.

Guess I need to find an exact model number if there is one. Every Haas mini search I did pulled up mills with a data plate showing 3-phase with no mention of "super mini".

x2. He seems like a super chill guy, though. Haven't watched his CAD academy yet. I'd like to see his Fusion tricks.

 

[JNHEscher]

Much agreement with the Tormach hype disappointment. Every company video of Tormachs I watch gives me a little discomfort because there's always a tad of paid hype feel to them. Some much more than others.

I really got into Fusion 360 a few years ago after finding Saunders. His attitude, methods and explanations are great and he has on-screen mistakes that he fixes. That's a huge help. I used to get myself in a bind and couldn't figure how I got to it. Seeing somebody else solve their Fusion problems just like they're an average Joe figuring it out is golden. If it weren't for places like that, Tormach users wouldn't has as much to turn to. I just recently came across Cliff on Threadexpress. He runs some Tormachs and digs into them really well - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCV3_rIV06tH3iePghJWcKwg

Some surface finishes I see in Tormach videos look spectacular for what the machine is. Others are downright shameful. All in the fine tune, perhaps? Last night I did watch somebody plow their end mill in full diameter into what looked like some yellow metal. Looked and sounded miserable.

Remaining inconclusive on the choice, I need to nitpick at any entry level VMC in the smallest package out there. Hard telling the size of the mills when all the real machines are wrapped up in boxy enclosures with ATC's

 

[bdkw1]

Weight is a pretty good indicator. Light machines are generally not going to be as rigid or be able to dampen cutter vibrations as well as a heavier machine.

An exception to that would be the OG Fadals with weldment frames. They were heavy but rang like bells under heavy cuts.

 

[JNHEscher]

Weight is a pretty good indicator. Light machines are generally not going to be as rigid or be able to dampen cutter vibrations as well as a heavier machine.

An exception to that would be the OG Fadals with weldment frames. They were heavy but rang like bells under heavy cuts.

Fo sho. It's just that if I'm not mistaken the weight is of the complete package with enclosures, stands, ATC's, etc. Would love to find bare mill weight. CAD machines downloads would be a plus. Much like Tormach. I snatched the 770 and vise right off their site and plugged them into Fusion.

Edit: Haas site does show 1-phase on the mini, but 3-phase for low. Not sure yet what the low is. Found the mill on grabcad. Gonna see if I can disassemble it for measuring.

 

[JNHEscher]

​Ayyyyy.

Got a side by side. Haas mini overall x,y,z - 57.25", 49.875", 75", I think. At that height, the mill would be sitting on the floor with no stand.

 

[JNHEscher]

Sticking these pics in here for my reference along with anyone else's that happens upon this thread. Nowhere have I found a CAD shot such as these (bare mill) and putting a Haas mini, Tormach 770, and Tormach 1100 side by side helps a lot.

 

[bgaidan]

Much agreement with the Tormach hype disappointment. Every company video of Tormachs I watch gives me a little discomfort because there's always a tad of paid hype feel to them. Some much more than others.

I really got into Fusion 360 a few years ago after finding Saunders. His attitude, methods and explanations are great and he has on-screen mistakes that he fixes. That's a huge help. I used to get myself in a bind and couldn't figure how I got to it. Seeing somebody else solve their Fusion problems just like they're an average Joe figuring it out is golden. If it weren't for places like that, Tormach users wouldn't has as much to turn to. I just recently came across Cliff on Threadexpress. He runs some Tormachs and digs into them really well - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCV3_rIV06tH3iePghJWcKwg

Some surface finishes I see in Tormach videos look spectacular for what the machine is. Others are downright shameful. All in the fine tune, perhaps? Last night I did watch somebody plow their end mill in full diameter into what looked like some yellow metal. Looked and sounded miserable.

Remaining inconclusive on the choice, I need to nitpick at any entry level VMC in the smallest package out there. Hard telling the size of the mills when all the real machines are wrapped up in boxy enclosures with ATC's

When I bought my mill I didn't have the slightest clue about CAM. I had some cad experience, but it was more on the civil/earthwork side and not super useful for machine stuff.

I went up to Saunders' place in OH for a long weekend to take his Fusion class. The class is actually taught by a dude named Kevin that has another youtube chanel called Mechanical Advantage. There was a lot about the class aimed toward people working on commercial shops, but there were also some major light bulbs that went off for me - the main being that in the fusion environment you want to "sketch" first and the then start dimensioning to pull everything together. I was used to the civil world where everything is tied to coordinates or alignments and offsets and was trying to draw like that. Once that snapped in my head, I got a lot better at the cad side of fusion.

I think I found the titan videos a few months later and went through the first dozen or so parts in his fusion videos - both the CAD/CAM and actually running the part on my mill. Really helped with some of the tool path concepts. Cool thing with fusion is you can always go back and look at old projects and look at tool path strategies you used to copy them over to a new one.

I think this was the last of the titan parts I made. 3 axis has some limitations when it comes to full 3d and I was probably running this at 200% to get it done faster....hence the surface finish, but it still blows my mind that I can make something like this in my garage.

 

[bgaidan]

Yup. Do the BT30 holders keep the tools from pulling out? I need to look at their assembly. If the mill machines steel without too many problems, I'll probably mill plenty of steel.

My preference, in order, would be: BT30, TTS, R8

BT30 is super common and you can get holders super cheap - and you get get dedicated end mill, face mill, tap hodlers, etc.

TTS is proprietary to tormach. You're pretty much stuck with what they offer unless they've licensed it to anyone else.

The problem with R8 is that it's not repeatable so you can't set up tools ahead of time. You'll have to zero your tool height with each change. Taper holders and TTS will put the tool at the exact same height relative to the spindle every time you load them. When you have enough holders for all the tools you're using, you set them all up in a tool table one time and don't have to do it again unless you make a change - like break a tool or replace a worn one. Not as big of a deal on one-off jobs, but if you're running a few of the same part and each requires multiple tool changes, it'd get old really quickly.


You can get some pretty low profile set screw style BT30 holdes. I think you'd only lose maybe 1/2" of head room over R8 with these.

 

[JNHEscher]

When I bought my mill I didn't have the slightest clue about CAM. I had some cad experience, but it was more on the civil/earthwork side and not super useful for machine stuff.

I went up to Saunders' place in OH for a long weekend to take his Fusion class. The class is actually taught by a dude named Kevin that has another youtube chanel called Mechanical Advantage. There was a lot about the class aimed toward people working on commercial shops, but there were also some major light bulbs that went off for me - the main being that in the fusion environment you want to "sketch" first and the then start dimensioning to pull everything together. I was used to the civil world where everything is tied to coordinates or alignments and offsets and was trying to draw like that. Once that snapped in my head, I got a lot better at the cad side of fusion.

I think I found the titan videos a few months later and went through the first dozen or so parts in his fusion videos - both the CAD/CAM and actually running the part on my mill. Really helped with some of the tool path concepts. Cool thing with fusion is you can always go back and look at old projects and look at tool path strategies you used to copy them over to a new one.

I think this was the last of the titan parts I made. 3 axis has some limitations when it comes to full 3d and I was probably running this at 200% to get it done faster....hence the surface finish, but it still blows my mind that I can make something like this in my garage.

I've been watching CAM videos to familiarize myself a bit before I dive in to letting a machine have at it. Seems quick and easy to learn, other than figuring out why a link path goes awry.

Would love to take Saunders' class. I almost took a CNC class at Ranken about ten years ago. Pretty much walked away after they started repeating that students would be headed straight for mundane assembly line style machine operations. That sounded so much like a repeat of Wyotech saying we were being trained for car dealership work.

I started a search for heat shrink BT30 holders today and the first result was Saunders' video on them. I think Mechanical Advantage is the channel he mentioned that covers much more on heat shrink holders.

What mill did you use? You might have mentioned it already and I forgot. Whenever I can, I want to avoid chattery finishes. Harder to do with benchtop mills, I know, but I'm certain it can be done. I might have to ask NYC CNC what they tune up on their Tormachs to get the nicer finishes.

 

[JNHEscher]

My preference, in order, would be: BT30, TTS, R8

BT30 is super common and you can get holders super cheap - and you get get dedicated end mill, face mill, tap hodlers, etc.

TTS is proprietary to tormach. You're pretty much stuck with what they offer unless they've licensed it to anyone else.

The problem with R8 is that it's not repeatable so you can't set up tools ahead of time. You'll have to zero your tool height with each change. Taper holders and TTS will put the tool at the exact same height relative to the spindle every time you load them. When you have enough holders for all the tools you're using, you set them all up in a tool table one time and don't have to do it again unless you make a change - like break a tool or replace a worn one. Not as big of a deal on one-off jobs, but if you're running a few of the same part and each requires multiple tool changes, it'd get old really quickly.


You can get some pretty low profile set screw style BT30 holdes. I think you'd only lose maybe 1/2" of head room over R8 with these.

I'm rather split on the decision between R8 and BT30, but BT30 is super common now. Never cared for set screws in anything, so I'm getting interested in the heat shrink holders to use as dedicated tooling. Have to see if they have any problems with pull out at all. I don't mind the expense in tooling if it takes one more sloppy variable out of the machine.

 

[bdkw1]

Nothing wrong with set screw holders. Shrinkers are nice but require extra tooling and extra$$$$$$. Not sure they would be worth it on a small machine like that.

I would not even consider and R8 if BT30's were an option.

 

[JNHEscher]

Nothing wrong with set screw holders. Shrinkers are nice but require extra tooling and extra$$$$$$. Not sure they would be worth it on a small machine like that.

I would not even consider and R8 if BT30's were an option.

I scrolled by Saunders' video on set screw run out earlier today. Just watched both of them. Pretty good testament to the set screw.

 

[bgaidan]

I've been watching CAM videos to familiarize myself a bit before I dive in to letting a machine have at it. Seems quick and easy to learn, other than figuring out why a link path goes awry.

Would love to take Saunders' class. I almost took a CNC class at Ranken about ten years ago. Pretty much walked away after they started repeating that students would be headed straight for mundane assembly line style machine operations. That sounded so much like a repeat of Wyotech saying we were being trained for car dealership work.

I started a search for heat shrink BT30 holders today and the first result was Saunders' video on them. I think Mechanical Advantage is the channel he mentioned that covers much more on heat shrink holders.

What mill did you use? You might have mentioned it already and I forgot. Whenever I can, I want to avoid chattery finishes. Harder to do with benchtop mills, I know, but I'm certain it can be done. I might have to ask NYC CNC what they tune up on their Tormachs to get the nicer finishes.

Sauner's first class is classroom only. That was basically 2 days - saturday and sunday for me. The next one, which was lick $2500 back then, is 4 or 5 days and had more advanced cad/cam and actual machine time on either a tormach or HAAS.

I was just looking for the fusion introduction - and like I said, some light bulbs went off while I was there and things made a lot more sense. I think it was in the $7-800 range. A little tough to swallow for a hobby, but it ended up being worth it to me as I could actually effectively use the machine I owned!


I have a Bridgeport Boss5 that I bought from a member here. There was a build thread on the PBB about it. Old 70's era machien (originally programmed with punch tape) that he retrofitted with new servos and linuxCNC for the control. It's stout - it has no problem snapping 3/4" carbide in half when I fuck up a tool path and it's more than accurate enough for anything I'll need to do with it.


There's a lot to surface finish. I have no problem making mirrors on 2d parts. That's all about tooling. When it comes to 3d, it can be really hard to get a good finish on certain features when you only have 3 axis. It's usually on the peak or break over of an exterior counter or the bottom or inside corner of a pocket where you'll have problems. Ball end mills cut best on the outside of their faces. As you get closer to the center/bottom of the ball, the surface speed gets close to zero. As you come to features that can only be "touched" by the very point of the ball, there's hardly any cutting speed or flute contact there and that's where you're likely to see imperfections.

When you have 4 or 5 axis, you can manipulate the part and/or cutter so that it's always making contact on on the outside face of the cutter.

When you don't have the luxury, you often have to step down to smaller cutters and tweak your tool paths to take lighter cuts and less step over.....which equates to much, much longer machine time.

Saunders has another site or program called "proven cut" where people share known good recipes for machines and cutters. I haven't looked in to it yet, but I would assume there are a lot of tormach owners on there. Basically you can see what tool, tool path strategy, speeds, feeds, etc. someone has used on a similar machine to yours and copy those in to your cam and way speed up the trial and error part of tuning a new tool or tool path.

I'm rather split on the decision between R8 and BT30, but BT30 is super common now. Never cared for set screws in anything, so I'm getting interested in the heat shrink holders to use as dedicated tooling. Have to see if they have any problems with pull out at all. I don't mind the expense in tooling if it takes one more sloppy variable out of the machine.

My machine runs an older version of 30 taper (NMTB30/Erickson Quick Change/QC30) - it uses a locking collar instead of a pull stud like the newer 30 taper stuff. I have never had a problem with pull out using set screw holders. I can't imagine that a tormach sized machine would would have any issues either - just not enough HP there.

Personally, if I were tooling up a new machine, I'd buy mostly ER collet holders - 16, 20 and 32. Use those for most of your work and then get a few specialty/low profile ones for time when spindle clearance/head room might be a problem. Collets give you a lot more flexibility per tool holder. And you can use them for mills, taps, drills.

Heat shrink means you need more bench room and power for a tool setter.

I'd assume you're mostly going to be dealing with smaller tooling - probably 3/8" and down. You could get a dozen or so ER holders and a good assortment of collets and have more flexibility than if you have 3 dozen shrink fit or set screw holders in various sizes. Since weight's also going to be a factor for you, it'll reduce the number of holders you'd need to cover the full range of sizes. Extra collets weigh far less than extra holders!


I only have one ER32 holder that came with my machine....mostly because they're too expensive (about $100 apiece for mine) and I've managed to collect about 80 set screw holders so I have more than enough for what I'm doing! I also ended up with a bunch of DA collet holders, which can only be used for axial operations (drilling & tapping) - can't do any side loading like milling with them.


It probably won't be as bad for you since you'll need to keep your inventory to a minimum because of space and weight requirements, but they generally say that if you're buying and tooling up a new machine, plan on spending almost as much on tooling and accessories as you did on the machine itself. And then budget for lots of broken cutters in the beginning too!

 

[JNHEscher]

Sauner's first class is classroom only. That was basically 2 days - saturday and sunday for me. The next one, which was lick $2500 back then, is 4 or 5 days and had more advanced cad/cam and actual machine time on either a tormach or HAAS.

I was just looking for the fusion introduction - and like I said, some light bulbs went off while I was there and things made a lot more sense. I think it was in the $7-800 range. A little tough to swallow for a hobby, but it ended up being worth it to me as I could actually effectively use the machine I owned!


I have a Bridgeport Boss5 that I bought from a member here. There was a build thread on the PBB about it. Old 70's era machien (originally programmed with punch tape) that he retrofitted with new servos and linuxCNC for the control. It's stout - it has no problem snapping 3/4" carbide in half when I fuck up a tool path and it's more than accurate enough for anything I'll need to do with it.


There's a lot to surface finish. I have no problem making mirrors on 2d parts. That's all about tooling. When it comes to 3d, it can be really hard to get a good finish on certain features when you only have 3 axis. It's usually on the peak or break over of an exterior counter or the bottom or inside corner of a pocket where you'll have problems. Ball end mills cut best on the outside of their faces. As you get closer to the center/bottom of the ball, the surface speed gets close to zero. As you come to features that can only be "touched" by the very point of the ball, there's hardly any cutting speed or flute contact there and that's where you're likely to see imperfections.

When you have 4 or 5 axis, you can manipulate the part and/or cutter so that it's always making contact on on the outside face of the cutter.

When you don't have the luxury, you often have to step down to smaller cutters and tweak your tool paths to take lighter cuts and less step over.....which equates to much, much longer machine time.

Saunders has another site or program called "proven cut" where people share known good recipes for machines and cutters. I haven't looked in to it yet, but I would assume there are a lot of tormach owners on there. Basically you can see what tool, tool path strategy, speeds, feeds, etc. someone has used on a similar machine to yours and copy those in to your cam and way speed up the trial and error part of tuning a new tool or tool path.


filedata/fetch?id=214519&d=1606659692





My machine runs an older version of 30 taper (NMTB30/Erickson Quick Change/QC30) - it uses a locking collar instead of a pull stud like the newer 30 taper stuff. I have never had a problem with pull out using set screw holders. I can't imagine that a tormach sized machine would would have any issues either - just not enough HP there.

Personally, if I were tooling up a new machine, I'd buy mostly ER collet holders - 16, 20 and 32. Use those for most of your work and then get a few specialty/low profile ones for time when spindle clearance/head room might be a problem. Collets give you a lot more flexibility per tool holder. And you can use them for mills, taps, drills.

Heat shrink means you need more bench room and power for a tool setter.

I'd assume you're mostly going to be dealing with smaller tooling - probably 3/8" and down. You could get a dozen or so ER holders and a good assortment of collets and have more flexibility than if you have 3 dozen shrink fit or set screw holders in various sizes. Since weight's also going to be a factor for you, it'll reduce the number of holders you'd need to cover the full range of sizes. Extra collets weigh far less than extra holders!


I only have one ER32 holder that came with my machine....mostly because they're too expensive (about $100 apiece for mine) and I've managed to collect about 80 set screw holders so I have more than enough for what I'm doing! I also ended up with a bunch of DA collet holders, which can only be used for axial operations (drilling & tapping) - can't do any side loading like milling with them.


It probably won't be as bad for you since you'll need to keep your inventory to a minimum because of space and weight requirements, but they generally say that if you're buying and tooling up a new machine, plan on spending almost as much on tooling and accessories as you did on the machine itself. And then budget for lots of broken cutters in the beginning too!

Good stuff here. I pulled up Proven Cut to check it out.

Probably correct that I'll be using 3/8" and smaller tooling. 1/2" is a maybe. Tormachs can run 1/2", but I think that's pushing it.

When the time comes, I'll be charting expenses of everything so I have a good idea of the total it takes to go from orders to making the first cuts. With some leeway, of course.

I don't see machining time being an issue at any point while on the road. Just as you assumed, inventory will be at a minimum (if anything at all). Some things are well worth the wait. Look up Frontline Fabrication and you'll see some mighty fine finishes. I don't think he shows much video. Probably uses a ball end mill in a 5-axis for surface speed as you stated. The parts I have in mind will often be 2D with the need for accurately located holes and bores. Maybe the occasional pocket radii. All subject to change, I'm sure.

Tool holding is something I need to educate myself on more. I'm feeling that the subject is something I'll have to tackle hands-on unless Cliff on Threadexpress lays it out for me to get a tight grasp on. This will depend highly on what machine I get and if I get it.

Lastly: Stirring the pot here. Made a bulk model of the 770 to stick in the bus. The cable chain makes it almost as tall as a Hass mini, but I can reroute that pretty quickly if need be. X-axis table is sitting at 36" off the floor. Same height as a typical kitchen counter.
As awesome as a trailer shop would be, we're still highly reluctant to pull a trailer. I'm hoping to dolly the toad. I'm working on building to bus to head to some more remote areas and will be looking for some wooded roads. Too tight and awkward to be pulling an enclosed trailer. That and trailers are too easy to steal. If we have to drop the trailer, there sits my shop, unattended. Dunno. Stuff to think on and we have time to do think on it.

Edit: So I said I modeled the 770 to stick in the bus. Forgot that I skipped the 440 .step file and only put the 770 and 1100 in Fusion. Therefore, I modeled the 1100 in SketchUp and stuck it in the bus and just now realized it LOL. Go figure. It fits. Guess I'll model the 770 to see how that looks.
Edit 2: Since I did the 1100 by mistake, I added the 770 for visual reference. Suggestions on any others to model? Out of my choices shared so far, Tormach is probably my best bet, but I'm open to ideas.