Water Well Problems (AKA How much money is this gonna cost me)

[Muckin_Slusher]

Most wells are attached to the pump with 1-inch or so PVC pipe. Have fun rolling that shit up. Tie that hose up, eh Hoser ?? Better shit around to roll up and smoke . . . . Canada has 45-gallon drums that are bigger than our 55-gallon ones.

Who said anything about rolling something up? You "roll" the drum over until it's beside the well, then you use it like a sheave, like in the pic below, the pipe just makes a 90 degree turn on the drum.

 

[M92PV4U]

Who said anything about rolling something up? You "roll" the drum over until it's beside the well, then you use it like a sheave, like in the pic below, the pipe just makes a 90 degree turn on the drum.

That is roll pipe. You aren't doing that with pvc.

Side note if you are pulling your pump your self and drop it or drop the new one you're most likely paying someone who knows what they are doing to fish it out.

When we install pumps they last somewhere around twenty years. When people hire plumbers, find someone cheaper or do it themselves they will be lucky to get five years out of a pump.

The pump is only part of a well designed system and if you want it to last the system needs to be designed by someone who knows what they are doing.

 

[arse_sidewards]

When we install pumps they last somewhere around twenty years. When people hire plumbers, find someone cheaper or do it themselves they will be lucky to get five years out of a pump.

The pump is only part of a well designed system and if you want it to last the system needs to be designed by someone who knows what they are doing.

God forbid someone acquire the necessary knowledge to properly design their own damn system.

 

[M92PV4U]

God forbid someone acquire the necessary knowledge to properly design their own damn system.

I haven't met (in person) someone who has.

 

[ThePanzerFuhrer]

God forbid someone acquire the necessary knowledge to properly design their own damn system.

Lol especially a replacement. Look at what you have a put the same thing back in haha.

At 18 Me and my little brother pulled my parents 120’ well and replaced the pump and put it back. The only instructions I got was use that pipe with the T handle To screw in the pitless and don’t fucking drop it. So I got it pulled and put a new pump on it. Turned it back and nothing.

My dumbass didn’t replace the wire running down to the pump so I got to pull it again. That pump is still running to this day 20+ years later.

This is why whenever there is a pump question I blame it on the wire running down the hole lol. Hopefully someone can learn from my hard educations.

Fwiw the only time I have ever lived where there was city water was my brief stint as a transplant Yooper going to college.

 

[[486]]

Canada has 45-gallon drums that are bigger than our 55-gallon ones.

canadian gallons are larger
the barrel size is likely the same

 

[ThePanzerFuhrer]

I haven't met (in person) someone who has.

Teach me I want to learn. What is the most common error? What is the best thing to do to extend the life of the pump? Are the vfd pumps worth the added cost? What length of cycle times do you shoot for? How big of pressure tanks you suggest? One big one or multiple smaller ones? What is target pressure in the house? How much pressure do you put in the tank vs house pressure?


I have 5 wells of my own + another 5-6 between dad and brother. I like to learn!

 

[Splib]

M92PV - I have never seen or heard of a single well water pipe that was not rigid. Water well, monitoring well, piezeometer. Ever, not a single one. Nor has anyone I know. Well drillers, Licensed Hydrogeologist/Regulators, contractors, real estate, friends. All across the state but in fairness Northern CA. No property owner. Nobody. I just duuno. Is water line hose to code ? What stops it from rotating ? Every time the pump kicks in it shifts a little and rotates. Stretching ? I have a CA Contractor's license with C-57. Nothing on the exam or industry standard study guides ever mentioned flexible hose. I feel if I asked my driller in Idaho he would laugh. Maybe we all missed something. ??? Looks a lot simpler quicker safer than having a mast or boom and attaching 20-ft sticks of sch 40/80 PVC.

 

[bgaidan]

M92PV - I have never seen or heard of a single well water pipe that was not rigid. Water well, monitoring well, piezeometer. Ever, not a single one. Nor has anyone I know. Well drillers, Licensed Hydrogeologist/Regulators, contractors, real estate, friends. All across the state but in fairness Northern CA. No property owner. Nobody. I just duuno. Is water line hose to code ? What stops it from rotating ? Every time the pump kicks in it shifts a little and rotates. Stretching ? I have a CA Contractor's license with C-57. Nothing on the exam or industry standard study guides ever mentioned flexible hose. I feel if I asked my driller in Idaho he would laugh. Maybe we all missed something. ??? Looks a lot simpler quicker safer than having a mast or boom and attaching 20-ft sticks of sch 40/80 PVC.

HPDE lines are very common around here. :shrug:

 

[IH-SSII]

I never could understand why people take a pump that is working hard already, the well pump itself and make it work even harder pressurizing the pressure tanks. Get a 500 gallon storage to pump into that has a upper limit sensor, so the head pressure isn't so high, dumping to that and use a shallow well pump from the storage tank to pressurize the pressure tank like an 80 gallon and the dwelling.. You're running a single phase pump, cycling the shit out of it a puny storage pressure tank and the inrush current is damn high on startup. Put a amp meter on it and you will see what I'm talking about. Just dumping freely into a storage tank will reduce your running amps too. Save the well pump and controls. Make it easier on the expensive, hard to replace components.

 

[Splib]

M92PV - I have never seen or heard of a single well water pipe that was not rigid. Water well, monitoring well, piezeometer. Ever, not a single one. Nor has anyone I know. Well drillers, Licensed Hydrogeologist/Regulators, contractors, real estate, friends. All across the state but in fairness Northern CA. No property owner. Nobody. I just duuno. Is water line hose to code ? What stops it from rotating ? Every time the pump kicks in it shifts a little and rotates. Stretching ? I have a CA Contractor's license with C-57. Nothing on the exam or industry standard study guides ever mentioned flexible hose. I feel if I asked my driller in Idaho he would laugh. Maybe we all missed something. ??? Looks a lot simpler quicker safer than having a mast or boom and attaching 20-ft sticks of sch 40/80 PVC.

Quick check of the Covid challenged State of California DWR bulletin74-91 is really vague. It uses words like "may" and "are commonly". Not "shall be " Hardly definitive. That said it mentions "styrene rubber is rarely used". From that limp dick legal bullshit from the state I would venture to say you could use hose. Counties and other agencies may have their own, more restrictive controls on well materials. Like I have said here before I learn something new every day. But You could not get my driller in Idaho to use flex rubber line in his well with his name on it, guaranteed. I know hementioned pipe twist when we were running the wires . . .. My $0.02 it looks like a labor saver and the hose will probably outlive the pump and wires and controls......

Interested to hear answers or from irates with new water wells . .. .

 

[Splib]

HPDE lines are very common around here. :shrug:

HDPE can be rigid or flexible to the extent it is literally a hose. . . . But interesting.

It seems, like I think I read it correctly ?? - ?? Sacramento County for example does not mention Styrene rubber or any other rubber as acceptable well casing material. All metals and rigid plastics. I dont have my ASTM any mor gave them to my son after I passed the License exam. Using a continuous flex line would be a fuck of a lot easier . . . . . including the omission of some connections at the well head ????? There must be something.

 

[[486]]

that black plastic shitieolie is what I've always seen
it's just rigid enough that it'll kink if you try and bend it tighter than prolly a 2' radius

ETA: also seen those balloon things that go right above the pump
the water pressure inflates it and it holds on the well casing so shit don't rotate

 

[Splib]

I never could understand why people take a pump that is working hard already, the well pump itself and make it work even harder pressurizing the pressure tanks. Get a 500 gallon storage to pump into that has a upper limit sensor, so the head pressure isn't so high, dumping to that and use a shallow well pump from the storage tank to pressurize the pressure tank like an 80 gallon and the dwelling.. You're running a single phase pump, cycling the shit out of it a puny storage pressure tank and the inrush current is damn high on startup. Put a amp meter on it and you will see what I'm talking about. Just dumping freely into a storage tank will reduce your running amps too. Save the well pump and controls. Make it easier on the expensive, hard to replace components.

Freezing

 

[ckupq]

https://www.menards.com/main/plumbi...5210/p-1448639690032-c-8570.htm?tid=-1&ipos=7

This is pretty common to find down a well here. It holds up well and never heard of one having torsion issues with the internal pipe.

 

[Splib]

God forbid someone acquire the necessary knowledge to properly design their own damn system.

You might be OK, OK ? But the law, the code, the regulation is to protect the population, the user against rip off and half assed idiots that wing nut shit. That don't use enough articulation and go Pew Pew.

 

[ThePanzerFuhrer]

I never could understand why people take a pump that is working hard already, the well pump itself and make it work even harder pressurizing the pressure tanks. Get a 500 gallon storage to pump into that has a upper limit sensor, so the head pressure isn't so high, dumping to that and use a shallow well pump from the storage tank to pressurize the pressure tank like an 80 gallon and the dwelling.. You're running a single phase pump, cycling the shit out of it a puny storage pressure tank and the inrush current is damn high on startup. Put a amp meter on it and you will see what I'm talking about. Just dumping freely into a storage tank will reduce your running amps too. Save the well pump and controls. Make it easier on the expensive, hard to replace components.

you must not live in a climate that freezes. Where the hell would you put a tank like that so it doesn’t freeze. I sure as fuck wouldn’t want to have potable water in a open tank for shit to contaminate it.

 

[[486]]

you must not live in a climate that freezes. Where the hell would you put a tank like that so it doesn’t freeze. I sure as fuck wouldn’t want to have potable water in a open tank for shit to contaminate it.

I hear the black plastic ones don't grow algae, then you'd run like an oil filter or something threaded on the tank vent to keep the bugs out?

ETA: still seems strange to me to run two pumps when one will do it just fine for years and years

 

[Splib]

https://www.menards.com/main/plumbi...5210/p-1448639690032-c-8570.htm?tid=-1&ipos=7

This is pretty common to find down a well here. It holds up well and never heard of one having torsion issues with the internal pipe.

How deep ? How far to drawn down water ?

Ok for a while in a shallow well . . . . No way a licensed well driller with a posted bond and insurance and warrantying his work would hang a well pump that can torque/ rotate a little each time it flips on 180 feet down, with maybe a 50 foot air gap with that. I think that's what they think ?? Compare that material in tension with Sch 80 PVC. They want to drill, set, run, test, get paid. And not get called out on their installation later down the road. But the flex sure looks easier and faster........

 

[Roc Doc]

Thanks a lot OP, I've got sediment in my well water today.

 

[bgaidan]

How deep ? How far to drawn down water ?

Ok for a while in a shallow well . . . . No way a licensed well driller with a posted bond and insurance and warrantying his work would hang a well pump that can torque/ rotate a little each time it flips on 180 feet down, with maybe a 50 foot air gap with that. I think that's what they think ?? Compare that material in tension with Sch 80 PVC. They want to drill, set, run, test, get paid. And not get called out on their installation later down the road. But the flex sure looks easier and faster........

I haven't had to have my well serviced here since I bought the place 6 years ago so I don't know what's in it, but I've abandoned 8-10 wells in the area that were 2-300'+ deep and more than half of them had black polly. Don't see what you think that would twist any more than PVC.

Are torque arrestors not a thing not a thing where you are?

 

[ckupq]

How deep ? How far to drawn down water ?

Ok for a while in a shallow well . . . . No way a licensed well driller with a posted bond and insurance and warrantying his work would hang a well pump that can torque/ rotate a little each time it flips on 180 feet down, with maybe a 50 foot air gap with that. I think that's what they think ?? Compare that material in tension with Sch 80 PVC. They want to drill, set, run, test, get paid. And not get called out on their installation later down the road. But the flex sure looks easier and faster........

Most of them don't do this work around here. They'll drill grout, test and sometimes set run and test and get paid. The last two I've handled didn't have anything down hole and were put in by another plumber. I mean its not hard work a monkey with a screwdriver can do all the work and still not fuck it up.

 

[Splib]

I haven't had to have my well serviced here since I bought the place 6 years ago so I don't know what's in it, but I've abandoned 8-10 wells in the area that were 2-300'+ deep and more than half of them had black polly. Don't see what you think that would twist any more than PVC.

Are torque arrestors not a thing not a thing where you are?

You are in Virginia ? Piedmont, coastal plain or the bedrock mountains ? I am not there but I can't envision going anywhere in the entire state and hitting first water at more than 20 feet below ground surface. Anyways, you said you "abandoned " them ? In CA that requires a well drillers contractor license. Drill rod or PVC with grout pump, etc. The industry is certainly far more regulated out west and especially in California. Think Prop 65 labels Assuming you were paid to "abandon" the wells, are you a general contractor or some other trade ? Just curious.

 

[[486]]

You are in Virginia ? Piedmont, coastal plain or the bedrock mountains ? I am not there but I can't envision going anywhere in the entire state and hitting first water at more than 20 feet below ground surface. Anyways, you said you "abandoned " them ? In CA that requires a well drillers contractor license. Drill rod or PVC with grout pump, etc. The industry is certainly far more regulated out west and especially in California. Think Prop 65 labels Assuming you were paid to "abandon" the wells, are you a general contractor or some other trade ? Just curious.

around here you just dump in a few bags of bentonite chips and that's good enough

 

[junkytj]

black poly is common here. Pretty sure that's what my pump is hanging on and it's over 600'.

To 42's point, you can't just randomly take load off of a pump. It will run off the end of the curve and burn the motor out. Pumps have an operating range they are designed for and you run them there and that's the only option. At the left of the curve you won't get water if you have too much head. At the right of the curve, you will have more water than the pump is rated for...for a little while. Knowing how to calculate static head and dynamic head and setting the cut in and out pressures to stay in the pump's curve and sizing the tanks to minimize the on/off cycles.

Edit: Someone asked about preferred house pressure. I like to target 55 psi and most switches are 10 psi ranges factory set so the pressure will vary from 50 to 60. Plumbers would usually like to reduce that by 5 across the board. I like having water pressure though.

 

[M92PV4U]

Teach me I want to learn. What is the most common error?
The most common error is ants in the pressure switch.
then some kind failure related to a water logged tank.
pressure switch or control box damage.


What is the best thing to do to extend the life of the pump?
A quality captive air tank or if it's a large (525 or 900 gallon) galvanized tank a white water or similar air charging system.


Are the vfd pumps worth the added cost?
We mostly recommend them on high gpm applications so the system takes up less room. This is accomplished by using a 33, 85 or 119 gallon captive air tank instead of a 525 or 900 gallon galvanized tank.
We also install them for residential use if space is tight.

What length of cycle times do you shoot for?
One minute.


How big of pressure tanks you suggest?
The tanks are sized so that the draw down matches the gpm of the pump.



One big one or multiple smaller ones?
It depends on the gpm of the pump, if multiple tanks are needed we use two tanks or the same size.


What is target pressure in the house?
Our pumps are sized to operate on a 40 cut in 60 cut out pressuresetting.


How much pressure do you put in the tank vs house pressure?
captive air tanks require two pounds less air pressure than pump cut in pressure.


I have 5 wells of my own + another 5-6 between dad and brother. I like to learn!

.

 

[M92PV4U]

M92PV - I have never seen or heard of a single well water pipe that was not rigid. Water well, monitoring well, piezeometer. Ever, not a single one. Nor has anyone I know. Well drillers, Licensed Hydrogeologist/Regulators, contractors, real estate, friends. All across the state but in fairness Northern CA. No property owner. Nobody. I just duuno. Is water line hose to code ? What stops it from rotating ? Every time the pump kicks in it shifts a little and rotates. Stretching ? I have a CA Contractor's license with C-57. Nothing on the exam or industry standard study guides ever mentioned flexible hose. I feel if I asked my driller in Idaho he would laugh. Maybe we all missed something. ??? Looks a lot simpler quicker safer than having a mast or boom and attaching 20-ft sticks of sch 40/80 PVC.

I've never used black roll pipe.
On jet pumps where the pump and motor are above ground we use pvc sch 40.
For submersible pumps we use pvc sch 80 or pvc sch 120 1-2". Three inch andlarger gets pvc certa-lock or galvanized steel pipe.
The water in my area is aggressive so steel or galvanized steel pipe doesn't last long.

 

[aczlan]

How deep ? How far to drawn down water ?

Ok for a while in a shallow well . . . . No way a licensed well driller with a posted bond and insurance and warrantying his work would hang a well pump that can torque/ rotate a little each time it flips on 180 feet down, with maybe a 50 foot air gap with that. I think that's what they think ?? Compare that material in tension with Sch 80 PVC. They want to drill, set, run, test, get paid. And not get called out on their installation later down the road. But the flex sure looks easier and faster........

The well driller who put in my parents well (400'?)b on the mid 90s used heavy black poly pipe (200 PSI?), it's still there today.
IIRC it's on its 2nd pump and rope.

Aaron Z

 

[speed bump]

M92PV - I have never seen or heard of a single well water pipe that was not rigid. Water well, monitoring well, piezeometer. Ever, not a single one. Nor has anyone I know. Well drillers, Licensed Hydrogeologist/Regulators, contractors, real estate, friends. All across the state but in fairness Northern CA. No property owner. Nobody. I just duuno. Is water line hose to code ? What stops it from rotating ? Every time the pump kicks in it shifts a little and rotates. Stretching ? I have a CA Contractor's license with C-57. Nothing on the exam or industry standard study guides ever mentioned flexible hose. I feel if I asked my driller in Idaho he would laugh. Maybe we all missed something. ??? Looks a lot simpler quicker safer than having a mast or boom and attaching 20-ft sticks of sch 40/80 PVC.

For shallow wells (sub probably 200 ft) it's pretty common. I did HDPE in my well a few months ago to replace the galvanized that broke in half (thankfully on the last 10 ft and the wires were well attached). Seeing snaps from my enviro/geo engineer friends they put it down monitoring wells in at least 3 states.

 

[bgaidan]

You are in Virginia ? Piedmont, coastal plain or the bedrock mountains ? I am not there but I can't envision going anywhere in the entire state and hitting first water at more than 20 feet below ground surface. Anyways, you said you "abandoned " them ? In CA that requires a well drillers contractor license. Drill rod or PVC with grout pump, etc. The industry is certainly far more regulated out west and especially in California. Think Prop 65 labels Assuming you were paid to "abandon" the wells, are you a general contractor or some other trade ? Just curious.

NC, just south the the VA line.

We abandoned them for a highway project my company did a couple miles from my house. We did the work "under the supervision of a licensed driller" - basically just chlorinate the water in the well in case you push it back in to the aquifer when you grout it - then just pour a high slump pea gravel concrete mix with an air vent line to make sure you don't get an air pocket at the bottom.

I just checked the paperwork that I got from the PO - my well is 330' deep with 25' static level. We build a bridge about a mile or so from here and the drilled shafts were in to HARD granite about 15-20' below the surface...we drilled about 20' past that and it didn't get any softer. The sediment that I get in mine tells me there's a layer of decomposed granite at some point in in the static area. I get this greenish sandy sediment - probably about a pint in the filter every few months.