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Three welders on a common gas system

Dead Pool

Dead Pool

Well-known member
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May 20, 2020
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491
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Texas
I coulda swore I started a thread here, but I can't find it for the life of me, so here we go...

I run a fabrication and welding shop. We build truck equipment. So on our toolbox line, we run 3 welders on a common gas line that are fed by cylinders at the end. For the past 30 years, it's run with no issue on 1/4" copper line, but crap is starting to fall apart and it's time to upgrade. Had this planned nearly a year ago and then we got slammed balls to the wall with work so we postponed it. We also have porosity issues from time to time that have been narrowed down to either bad mix or not enough volume in the line. Currently going through those issues and I'm sick of fighting it. My plan is to run 3/4" copper soldered tubing with drops at each welder. I've sourced 3/4 to 1/2" npt termination points, and 1/2 npt to CGA580 adaptors for the flow meters on the back of each welder. Currently, running pressure gauges instead of flow meters there. I'm considering switching from single tank at a time operation to 6packs just to lessen changeover time. We blow through about a tank a day.

Any opinions on this setup? Any ideas on the pigtail sizing or where I could get oversized pigtail hoses for linking the 6pack or tank to the 1/2 npt drop for the inlet? I welcome all ideas and criticism, I only want to do this once.

I'll post a couple pics in a minute of the current situation. My concern is there currently isn't enough flow to each welder with the tiny ass tubing and that the 3rd welder on the line gets starved out. Also does anybody have any input or experience with gas saver systems?

BetterWelds – Gas Saver System

www.betterwelds.com www.betterwelds.com

Thanks.
 
79CBC54C-501A-4066-8721-9EF80189C6A1.jpeg
 
Question is there a reason you build them on sawhorses?

Why no robots? They look almost the same perfect job for a robot. One dude loading a 2 sided fixture would out weld the 3 welders.

Carry on :flipoff2:
 
All of our machines were in cages at the mill we were either hooked to 2 tanks of shielding gas.. or a rack of them manifold rack I believe. When all of us were hooked to one of those it would freeze up everytime. I just got to where I had 2 full tank in my cage ... still would run a heat lamp like chicken heat lamp or regulator either way.. just less freezing while hooked to one of my 2 tanks.

Can you refigure the volume needed for machines and add some more to it?
Kinda sounds like it to me with uprising your supply line more less your manifold..
 
ThePanzerFuhrer said:
Question is there a reason you build them on sawhorses?

Why no robots? They look almost the same perfect job for a robot. One dude loading a 2 sided fixture would out weld the 3 welders.

Carry on :flipoff2:
Click to expand...
Last time we looked at robots, maybe 10 years ago, they couldn't hit some of the welds we require. Innovation has probably changed since, but we haven't revisited the idea. Not willing to change design to accomodate robots basically.
 
Chadwick said:
Nice looking boxes even. How many you put out a day?

Seals paint or powdercoat?
Click to expand...
We put out around 20-30 per day per person depending on size. This is only one side of what we do, but we're pretty well known in the industry as having indestructible stuff that holds up, even in the oilfield. We're just a small place though, specializing in custom equipment that most places can't handle due to their assy lines. Powdercoat on the toolboxes, wet paint on the bigger stuff. Yes, we have a trim seal and our boxes do not leak at all.
 
Stuart hose A to Z or Midwest can build the whip hoses.
Seems pretty simple to implement.
 
Also I would think it would be less labor intensive to cascade those gas bottles instead of moving the regulator and bottles to each bottle.

But thinking about it now I'm not sure that is a good process for mixed gasses.
 
I would run the 1inch copper at 100 to 120 psi and step down at each welder. We run 6 packs of hydrogen with a auto switch between the two 6-packs. Our gas supplier set us up.
 
When we get nitrogen for pressure testing lines at work, it's usually six or nine cylinders all linked together, we open them one at a time and the whole pack goes back to get refilled.
For what you're doing, I would do something like cj3a is recommending and step down to a medium pressure (at least 4x what you want for output pressure?), then have a flow/pressure regulator for each drop.

Aaron Z
 
Dead Pool said:
I coulda swore I started a thread here, but I can't find it for the life of me, so here we go...

I run a fabrication and welding shop. We build truck equipment. So on our toolbox line, we run 3 welders on a common gas line that are fed by cylinders at the end. For the past 30 years, it's run with no issue on 1/4" copper line, but crap is starting to fall apart and it's time to upgrade. Had this planned nearly a year ago and then we got slammed balls to the wall with work so we postponed it. We also have porosity issues from time to time that have been narrowed down to either bad mix or not enough volume in the line. Currently going through those issues and I'm sick of fighting it. My plan is to run 3/4" copper soldered tubing with drops at each welder. I've sourced 3/4 to 1/2" npt termination points, and 1/2 npt to CGA580 adaptors for the flow meters on the back of each welder. Currently, running pressure gauges instead of flow meters there. I'm considering switching from single tank at a time operation to 6packs just to lessen changeover time. We blow through about a tank a day.

Any opinions on this setup? Any ideas on the pigtail sizing or where I could get oversized pigtail hoses for linking the 6pack or tank to the 1/2 npt drop for the inlet? I welcome all ideas and criticism, I only want to do this once.

I'll post a couple pics in a minute of the current situation. My concern is there currently isn't enough flow to each welder with the tiny ass tubing and that the 3rd welder on the line gets starved out. Also does anybody have any input or experience with gas saver systems?

BetterWelds – Gas Saver System

www.betterwelds.com www.betterwelds.com

Thanks.
Click to expand...
I worked at a place that had a set up similar to yours, just on a larger scale

I do know there are flow testers that you can check the flow coming out of the cup to check that you are getting what you are needing at the business end

and I do know that they will change those bottles around and switch the contents
We could tell when that happened, and we would question the supplier if that was happening. It turned out to be true
not saying that is what it is, but something to consider
 
I wish I took pictures at old jobs. We had (3) 50# CO2 tanks hooked to a mixer and a doer of argon Those were outside. Plumbed in through the wall with 1” copper, stepped down to 1/2” before a valve. Valve went to a small flow meter and had a jumper hose to quick connect off that. The jumpers were for the machines that were portable. There were also ones mounted like yours and they had a hose going all the way to the feeder. All 4 machines could be running at the same time. Only porosity or shit would occur if the CO2 tanks got low on pressure. Probably wouldn’t be as much as a problem with mix gas cylinders.
For those with freezing regulators, they sell regulators with heaters In them. Never priced them but my current job has them, not that they get used.

If I’ve totally lost you, let me know.
 
Any reason everyone is stuck on copper?

I'd be curious if something like poly or hdpe line would be easier to service, modify and/or repair?
 
Brad said:
I wish I took pictures at old jobs. We had (3) 50# CO2 tanks hooked to a mixer and a doer of argon Those were outside. Plumbed in through the wall with 1” copper, stepped down to 1/2” before a valve. Valve went to a small flow meter and had a jumper hose to quick connect off that. The jumpers were for the machines that were portable. There were also ones mounted like yours and they had a hose going all the way to the feeder. All 4 machines could be running at the same time. Only porosity or shit would occur if the CO2 tanks got low on pressure. Probably wouldn’t be as much as a problem with mix gas cylinders.
For those with freezing regulators, they sell regulators with heaters In them. Never priced them but my current job has them, not that they get used.

If I’ve totally lost you, let me know.
Click to expand...
our stuff would freeze a ball of ice the size of a basketball
sill flowed:grinpimp:
 
YotaAtieToo said:
Any reason everyone is stuck on copper?

I'd be curious if something like poly or hdpe line would be easier to service, modify and/or repair?
Click to expand...
Will poly or hdpe last with the gasses flowing?
some stuff will not last, the chemical magic doesn't play well with others

that would be my first guess
 
Some plastics are gas permeable. The industry I work has found stainless or copper only acceptable. If we use plastic only Teflon and in short lengths. I would also suggest dryers install at the welders and possibly and the tank end.
 
pex.

fuck crimps, get an expander and send it. i have ran weld gas thru it at other shops. and running compressed air in my shop at 175psi never had a leak.

in the shipyard we ran 1" black, poly i think (like water line), from the bulk supply to manifolds with 6-12 drops each with own flowmeter. from there soft 1/4 line to your suitcase.

i cant believe a shop like that would really change a bottle every day, everytime the connection is broke you invite contamination and weld problems. i would think you'd want to a bottle bank and the very minimum and would probably work out to be better of with bulk argon and co2 fed to a mixer.
 
We have found some polyethylene tubing will allow moisture from the outside thru to the inside. If using Swagelok fittings you need to be mindful of the tubing wall thickness to get a gas tight rating. Also for copper silver solder and back purge with nitrogen.
 
rockmup said:
another vote for a 12 bottle rack and copper lines with flow meters at each machine
Click to expand...

x10

You need a rack of bottles tied together. Gas company will deliver them on the racks to you, just need to be able to maneuver them to their home. Worse case find a new home that is easy to get to and run more line.
 
I wouldn't do 580 at the drops, I'd do the 9/16" RH gas thread (like the LH water thread on tig welders, but RH for gas, you know?)
because you're running the manifold at regulated pressure, so then you just tap off with the flowmeters themselves, not running additional regulators and flowmeters
 
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