What's new

sub pannel to power shop

I ran my shop off a 120amp breaker to a subpanel in the shop. I had way more than 120amp worth of breakers in the shop but I never had an issue since not everything was on at once. My old house the panel was on opposite side of house from the garage. So the prvioous owner installed a 50amp subpanel in the garage since it was much much easier to run one set of larger wires to that than multiple runs for the welder, outlets, and lights
 
I don't mind the building codes but the damn permitting process sucks ass sometimes.
The real PITA is that permitting/inspection opens you up to everything needing to be “updated”.

I pulled a building permit to remove a load bearing wall and replace it with a beam and a new pier. Because I had moved some of the wiring from the wall that didn’t exist any more to an old wall using new wire, all appropriately sized, stapled to studs, all connections in boxes, etc, I was required to pull an electrical permit. I didn’t add or subtract any switches, receptacles, or anything else, and had fixed stuff from original construction like them smashing a hole in the wall with a hammer, connecting a light with wire nuts, and hanging a mirror over it.

Inspector then tells me I need to have all the smoke detectors in the house wired on the same circuit, replace half the breakers in my panel with ARC fault, which there isn’t room for since I have a few tandem breakers, so I’ll have to put in a new panel. I still have an open permit and he hasn’t been back. :laughing:

IMO, they should only be able to inspect what’s new or flag stuff that’s grossly negligent.
 
careful, there are people on here that'll get after you for suggesting this

I like bonded neutrals and ground rods at every panel
lets me avoid paying for four bigass wires when you really only need three
Oh no... you still need the 4 wires.


If you are gonna do it, you may as well over do it :flipoff2:
 
The real PITA is that permitting/inspection opens you up to everything needing to be “updated”.

I pulled a building permit to remove a load bearing wall and replace it with a beam and a new pier. Because I had moved some of the wiring from the wall that didn’t exist any more to an old wall using new wire, all appropriately sized, stapled to studs, all connections in boxes, etc, I was required to pull an electrical permit. I didn’t add or subtract any switches, receptacles, or anything else, and had fixed stuff from original construction like them smashing a hole in the wall with a hammer, connecting a light with wire nuts, and hanging a mirror over it.

Inspector then tells me I need to have all the smoke detectors in the house wired on the same circuit, replace half the breakers in my panel with ARC fault, which there isn’t room for since I have a few tandem breakers, so I’ll have to put in a new panel. I still have an open permit and he hasn’t been back. :laughing:

IMO, they should only be able to inspect what’s new or flag stuff that’s grossly negligent.
You pulled a permit for interior work. You might as well put up a billboard that says "I am a fool waiting to be screwed out of my money". The town was simply taking you up on the offer.
 
This is the plan is right now. I figure 60a is plenty. That's what the current attached garage is and I don't have any issues. I'm only one man and cant plasma and weld at the same time anyway. I don't plan staying at this place forever but I need some more space.
60 amp isn't enough to plasma and run lights. Your plasma and compressor will push the 60 amp limit.

You need either a separate service or to upgrade your house service.
 
60 amp isn't enough to plasma and run lights. Your plasma and compressor will push the 60 amp limit.

You need either a separate service or to upgrade your house service.

Meh, a 120v compressor will pull ~12a depending on size, and a hypertherm powermax 45xp will only pull ~32a on 240v. He's got some headroom, but not much. Overall I agree with you, but it would be overkill if that's really his "future proof solution".




As for the bonding/multiple ground rods thing, bonding/not bonding sub panels and whatnot didn't click for me till I watched this video. Not sure if it's NEC compliant or not, but adding an extra ground rod wouldn't be an issue by itself. Bonding the sub panel with a ground rod would be an issue though, because current could pass across the ground from sub back to main. That is if you ran a ground from sub back to main in this theoretical setup. Interesting thought experiment.

 
Meh, a 120v compressor will pull ~12a depending on size, and a hypertherm powermax 45xp will only pull ~32a on 240v. He's got some headroom, but not much. Overall I agree with you, but it would be overkill if that's really his "future proof solution".


With the startup amperage "burst" (if you will, certainly not a technical term)... he could be close to that 60amps.

This is one of those "the difference between done and correct is about $100 now or $500 later" type of situations.
 
The real PITA is that permitting/inspection opens you up to everything needing to be “updated”.

I pulled a building permit to remove a load bearing wall and replace it with a beam and a new pier. Because I had moved some of the wiring from the wall that didn’t exist any more to an old wall using new wire, all appropriately sized, stapled to studs, all connections in boxes, etc, I was required to pull an electrical permit. I didn’t add or subtract any switches, receptacles, or anything else, and had fixed stuff from original construction like them smashing a hole in the wall with a hammer, connecting a light with wire nuts, and hanging a mirror over it.

Inspector then tells me I need to have all the smoke detectors in the house wired on the same circuit, replace half the breakers in my panel with ARC fault, which there isn’t room for since I have a few tandem breakers, so I’ll have to put in a new panel. I still have an open permit and he hasn’t been back. :laughing:

IMO, they should only be able to inspect what’s new or flag stuff that’s grossly negligent.
Interesting, around here (rural NY) if you take one or more walls down to the studs that room has to be brought up to code (smoke detectors, tamperproof outlets on AFCI, etc), but not the rest of the house.

Aaron Z
 
If they can't see it from the road you don't need a permit.

Until it’s time to sell. :eek:






Oh no... you still need the 4 wires.


If you are gonna do it, you may as well over do it :flipoff2:

Yes you need 4 wires but that wouldn’t be over doing it. A driven ground rod and the “4th” conductor (equipment grounding conductor) serve 2 different functions. So really a ground rod means exactly ZERO as to whether there needs to be 3 or 4 conductors brought to a sub panel.

In other words people that are suggesting you can eliminate the 4th wire and accomplish the same thing by driving a ground rod and bonding the neutral to it are dead wrong.
 
:shaking:

Even when the market is cool the buyer always signs something that makes the sale basically as-is.
So what happens when me as a buyer asks to see the documentation for the new electrical panel and my home inspector catches it?

edit to add: hey check out this nice 3 bed 2 baths that now is 4 bedrooms and has no proof that it wasnt just shit in by weekend warrior hacks
 
So what happens when me as a buyer asks to see the documentation for the new electrical panel and my home inspector catches it?

edit to add: hey check out this nice 3 bed 2 baths that now is 4 bedrooms and has no proof that it wasnt just shit in by weekend warrior hacks
Have you ever actually bought a home?

Anywhere that the average house isn't stupidly new having no documentation for all sorts of work is par for the course. The only time you have issues is if you're trying to add rental units to a building.

Inspector does as much as he can to not torpedo the sale and he DGAF because his liability is limited to his fee.
 
You pulled a permit for interior work. You might as well put up a billboard that says "I am a fool waiting to be screwed out of my money". The town was simply taking you up on the offer.
Future sale was the reason why. I would never pull a permit for a bathroom or kitchen remodel, but load bearing beams and additional piers without an inspection would be a red flag to many buyers.

I was under the impression that if it’s not new construction or condemned, permits are basically just a game to rake in tax $, and the fee was like $150.
 
When you put the panel in, put in a ground rod too. You can never have to many grounds.
That's what I thought as well. Installed a subpanel and another ground plate for it. Inspector came over to check it out and I was told to remove it and only have the one at the house. He then went on to say something about "transient voltages" yada yada...
 
That's what I thought as well. Installed a subpanel and another ground plate for it. Inspector came over to check it out and I was told to remove it and only have the one at the house. He then went on to say something about "transient voltages" yada yada...
Fuck that guy. We have ground stakes at every machine in the shop at work. Inspector approved. Have one at the panel in my home shop, one at the mill, one at the hot tub, one for the house panel. You can never have to many grounds. I have seen all sorts of electrical gremlins in shops solved with a ground rod or 4. Many machine tool manufactures request them.
 
Fuck that guy. We have ground stakes at every machine in the shop at work. Inspector approved. Have one at the panel in my home shop, one at the mill, one at the hot tub, one for the house panel. You can never have to many grounds. I have seen all sorts of electrical gremlins in shops solved with a ground rod or 4. Many machine tool manufactures request them.
We ran a 400A 480V service from one building to the other, that got grounds tied into the foundation, ground rods and all of it was cadwelded because it was under the slab.
It still got a ground wire run in the conduit.

Aaron Z
 
Are you planning on running everything in the garage and the shop at the same time? You don't need 400A anything necessarily. We have 200A coming into the house. The whole place used to run on 60A before we put the larger service in. Ran 100A to the shed. Junction Box on the back of the deck. Going to tie into that for the 100A panel in the new garage. I will most likely never use anything in the shed again, but it's already there and I don't feel like tearing it out and I may need to roll my welder over there one day for something. Point is, power is there for everything but as long as you don't run all your shit at once it'll be fine. Use those smaller breakers to open up room in the main panel, then put in your breaker, run conduit and wire away.

If I ever want to tear the shed down, turn off the breaker, unhook the shed side from Junction Box, pull out the wires. I'm a proponent of building options into any system.
 
How big is your house panel? You'll need at least two spots for a 220V breaker.

Make sure that there aren't any unused breakers - things like a range when you converted to that gas stove, or an electric dryer that's been converted to gas, or a water heater that's been similarly converted.

I have 400A coming to the meter and a 200A panel for the house and a second 200A panel for the shop.
I ran a 100a sub panel in my shop the same size as OPs is for around 20 years. Did a shit ton of fabrication in it building buggies and a bunch of other stuff. I was pushing it running a window ac unit in there and running a welder. You don’t need much amps to weld .125 or .188 wall stuff. I never pushed thing ms to trip the 100a breaker in my shop and the one in my house panel. But it always bothered me and I knew I needed to upgrade specially since I want to run an HVAC system in the shop. It’s still window ac and wood furnace for heat.

Last year my original buried wire from the pole to my house from 1978 shorted out one night. Power company ran a temp across the top of my front lawn 165’ long. I had been collecting things off of Craigslist to up my power for several years but this forced me to do it now.

So I dug a trench from the pole to my house and then from my house to my shop. I had my buddy a licensed electrician pull permits and help me out with it. I bought two 200A service panels one for my house and one for my shop not to mention the splitter box and a new meter box. I ran 3” conduit from the pole to my house and 2 1/2” from my house to my shop which is 150’ away. I was happy to get all that swapped over up to date and a 380a service so now I know I’m not overloading anything that could cause an issue.

I actually worked on the shop panel today running wire to it for the new 24x36 steel carport canopy we just got installed. I’m running two power leads out to it. One for the camper to plug into and the other for a plug in box and switch boxes for two LED dusk to dawn lights and two outside curling fans.

BBFB9168-D39E-426A-9188-29866ADD0284.jpeg
 
I wired this one up in my shop last year and added to it here and there when I’m needing too. I have one black wire hanging out as the breaker I need to hook it up to is in use for the temp camper 30A plug

FBF80885-4604-4B50-B726-5975565A1A29.jpeg
 
I like the input on the tandem breakers.

For the SquareD Homeline, they even sell 20/50/20 breakers that you could slide in to replace two 20A breakers, and now you have the two 20A breakers you had before, PLUS a 50A to feed the new building.

I don't recall seeing 20/60/20.

I would go with a 100A or even 200A sub-panel, even if you only feed it with 50 or 60A - it isn't much more money and it'll have a few more slots.

The other thing to consider is expansion.

With a 60A panel and a 60A feed, if you wanted to add solar to the new building you're limited to the 20% rule so only 12A of back-feed.

With a 100A panel and a 60A feed, you can back-feed at least the 40A extra capacity in the panel, if not that plus the 20% of the panel or a grand total of 60A.

(Realistically, a bit string inverter will top out at 40A anyways)

Also think about the future - you want a plasma cutter and/or welder outlet, but how long before you need to also charge your Tesla? That's going to be a 16A or 32A @ 240V draw that will be constant for a few hours when it's charging.

and FYI on the upgrades and solar.

I built another shop last summer.

I paid the power company $3200 to upgrade the transformer behind my house and run new conduit to the house and add a 400A meter.

I paid $6k to the electrician for the new meter base and panel and installation.

I trenched to the new shop and ran 200A to it.

I installed solar on the roof and inverters and so forth - but here's the tip.

All of the costs for installing the solar were subject to a 26% Federal Tax Rebate for alternative energy installation.

There is no minimum of "solar' you need to install, just that you install solar.

Four panels and micro-inverters would do the job.

Then everything you do to support that installation is 26% off. :D

I did more than four panels.. but if solar is something you're even halfway interested in, just know that as long as you install some quantity of grid-tied solar power, the government is here to help subsidize those installation costs - trenching, the power upgrade, the new panels, the wire to your new outbuilding / solar panel mounting structure..
 
I appreciate the info from you guys. we broke ground on the new shop last week. Ill start another thread on it once I get some time. i doubt ill be able to power it until spring but I hope to get the shell up before the snow hits
 
I like the input on the tandem breakers.

For the SquareD Homeline, they even sell 20/50/20 breakers that you could slide in to replace two 20A breakers, and now you have the two 20A breakers you had before, PLUS a 50A to feed the new building.

I don't recall seeing 20/60/20.

I would go with a 100A or even 200A sub-panel, even if you only feed it with 50 or 60A - it isn't much more money and it'll have a few more slots.

The other thing to consider is expansion.

With a 60A panel and a 60A feed, if you wanted to add solar to the new building you're limited to the 20% rule so only 12A of back-feed.

With a 100A panel and a 60A feed, you can back-feed at least the 40A extra capacity in the panel, if not that plus the 20% of the panel or a grand total of 60A.

(Realistically, a bit string inverter will top out at 40A anyways)

Also think about the future - you want a plasma cutter and/or welder outlet, but how long before you need to also charge your Tesla? That's going to be a 16A or 32A @ 240V draw that will be constant for a few hours when it's charging.

and FYI on the upgrades and solar.

I built another shop last summer.

I paid the power company $3200 to upgrade the transformer behind my house and run new conduit to the house and add a 400A meter.

I paid $6k to the electrician for the new meter base and panel and installation.

I trenched to the new shop and ran 200A to it.

I installed solar on the roof and inverters and so forth - but here's the tip.

All of the costs for installing the solar were subject to a 26% Federal Tax Rebate for alternative energy installation.

There is no minimum of "solar' you need to install, just that you install solar.

Four panels and micro-inverters would do the job.

Then everything you do to support that installation is 26% off. :D

I did more than four panels.. but if solar is something you're even halfway interested in, just know that as long as you install some quantity of grid-tied solar power, the government is here to help subsidize those installation costs - trenching, the power upgrade, the new panels, the wire to your new outbuilding / solar panel mounting structure..
Dam you paid a shit ton of coin for all that.

Out here the transformer upgrade was on the utility company and not on me

I ran the new buried 3” conduit from the pole to my house

The utility company ran thei feed wire from the pole to my house

I got to keep the 165’ aluminum temporarily ran feed wire the utility company had ran previously when my original feed from 1978 shorted out

I bought the 400a meter box, splitter box, both 200a breaker panels and the feed wire from my house to my shop.

I helped my licensed buddy do the main work like pulling the wire down to my shop. He had a big wire puller.

I might have $3k in the whole thing total
 
I appreciate the info from you guys. we broke ground on the new shop last week. Ill start another thread on it once I get some time. i doubt ill be able to power it until spring but I hope to get the shell up before the snow hits
Better shop for your electrical shit now, stuff around here is getting hard to find
 
I had to pull a permit for the solar because of the back feed, AND I had to pull a permit for the service upgrade from 200A to 400A.


The Power Company dictated that - both for the upgrade and for the solar.

Thus the master electrician had to be involved.

I already had a net metering installed, so I probably could have proceeded with the solar add on without involving the electrician again - but I had to pull a permit for the new shop, and on the questions was "will this involve solar" and that meant "need a master electrician" again.



That said, I did most of the the work myself aside from the meter base changeout and the final wiring of the solar inverters.


The original 200A feed was direct bury and they left it in the ground. The new supply is in conduit.

My power to the garage and do the shop is all in conduit - I supplied the wire for both.
 
Top Back Refresh