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Small Engine Tech, Gear Reductions

posford

posford

Piece Of Shit Ford
Joined
May 19, 2020
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62
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I've got an old Holmes 440 wrecker boom with mechanical winch that I'm mounting in a truck, and as much as I'd love to run the winch off the transmission, finding the correct PTO has proven difficult, and packaging it is going to be tough.

I had the idea to mount a 9-13 hp Harbor Freight special in the bed and run enough reduction so the winch is happy. Packaging a ~6:1 reduction is looking dumb, but I found that small cement mixers run a engine with 6:1 reduction. Harbor Freight doesn't sell anything with the reduction, how difficult would it be to pillage the reduction off a junk motor and put it on the Predator engine?

Any other ideas like a small transmission between the motor and winch input? Lawn mower stuff looks like too deep a reduction. Multiple gears might be nice for changing between just spooling cable and pulling a load.

Not opposed to hydro, just $$$
 
posford said:
I've got an old Holmes 440 wrecker boom with mechanical winch that I'm mounting in a truck, and as much as I'd love to run the winch off the transmission, finding the correct PTO has proven difficult, and packaging it is going to be tough.

I had the idea to mount a 9-13 hp Harbor Freight special in the bed and run enough reduction so the winch is happy. Packaging a ~6:1 reduction is looking dumb, but I found that small cement mixers run a engine with 6:1 reduction. Harbor Freight doesn't sell anything with the reduction, how difficult would it be to pillage the reduction off a junk motor and put it on the Predator engine?

Any other ideas like a small transmission between the motor and winch input? Lawn mower stuff looks like too deep a reduction. Multiple gears might be nice for changing between just spooling cable and pulling a load.

Not opposed to hydro, just $$$
Click to expand...

Sounds like a comet tav knockoff driving a sprocket would be perfect for this.

I've got a few of these and they work well.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Go-Kart-Tor...s/131557199500

Otherwise a hydro transmission from a riding lawn mower would work pretty slick since it would give you many speeds in both directions. Twisted belt drive to the hydro unit's original pulley. The hydro unit unbolts from some of them and you could drive off of that, otherwise you could weld the spiders and use either axle.
 
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larboc said:
Sounds like a comet tav knockoff driving a sprocket would be perfect for this.

I've got a few of these and they work well.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Go-Kart-Tor...s/131557199500

Otherwise a hydro transmission from a riding lawn mower would work pretty slick since it would give you many speeds in both directions. Twisted belt drive to the hydro unit's original pulley. The hydro unit unbolts from some of them and you could drive off of that, otherwise you could weld the spiders and use either axle.
Click to expand...

that's an interesting thought.
comet even makes a kit to lock it in the lowest reduction ratio.
https://www.gokartsupply.com/speedr.htm

but I think it's less than 2:1 IIRC.

edit:
always the jackshaft and chain option, but a 60 tooth sprocket is gonna be like 8" in diameter.
 
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larboc said:
Otherwise a hydro transmission from a riding lawn mower would work pretty slick since it would give you many speeds in both directions. Twisted belt drive to the hydro unit's original pulley. The hydro unit unbolts from some of them and you could drive off of that, otherwise you could weld the spiders and use either axle.
Click to expand...

Not sure how I feel about the TAV

The rider hydro would be interesting, I'll have to see if I can find anything about the unit that unbolts
 
87manche said:
that's an interesting thought.
comet even makes a kit to lock it in the lowest reduction ratio.
https://www.gokartsupply.com/speedr.htm

but I think it's less than 2:1 IIRC.
Click to expand...

No need, just adjust engine speed to keep it in the lowest ratio. On the stuff I've got them on they are tuned good enough for a typical 212cc engine right out of the box so they will pick a good ratio based on load and speed. The secondary spring does have adjustments for tuning. IMHO for the price the ebay kits are a screaming deal for what you get. Pick a driven sprocket on the winch input that gives you the top speed you want, the TAV's are close to 1:1 when fully shifted. To get to 6:1 at full speed that would mean he'd need a 36 tooth #35 sprocket which is only 4.5" OD.
 
larboc said:
What are your reservations?
Click to expand...

That there's only a small amount of reduction in the TAV to begin with, to run the winch full tilt I'd going to need to be at 3600 rpm, so all reduction is gone. So I wind up still needing a 6:1 reduction thru sprockets, which at that point I'll direct drive it.

Smallest #40 I found for 1" shaft is 12 tooth, so I'd need a 96 tooth for 6:1, which would be 15.6" diameter
Smallest #50 was 12 tooth, so 72 tooth for 6:1, 14.7" diameter.
 
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posford said:
That there's only a small amount of reduction in the TAV to begin with, to run the winch full tilt I'd going to need to be at 3600 rpm, so all reduction is gone. So I wind up still needing a 6:1 reduction thru sprockets, which at that point I'll direct drive it.

Smallest #40 I found for 1" shaft is 12 tooth, so I'd need a 96 tooth for 6:1, which would be 15.6" diameter
Smallest #50 was 12 tooth, so 72 tooth for 6:1, 14.7" diameter.
Click to expand...

The "first gear" reduction with the tav is 2.7:1 and it will stay at that ratio until the driven pulley sees the load reduced. This means that when the output is loaded to "full torque" the engine is running 3600 and you've got a 2.7:1 reduction. As your load lets up it would speed your retrieval rate up since it would shift all the way up to 1:1 when the output is lightly loaded. The #40 sprocket those tav kits come with is 10 tooth. You'd only need a 22 tooth sprocket.

If you direct drive it, how do you start/stop it or control speed?
 
Most reduction box engines I've seen have a special crankshaft to accommodate it.

Could always go engine belt driven hydraulic, gives a bit of a safety factor vs direct mechanical drive.
 
in for a cheap solution or source
kinda want one of them little reduction motors to toss a capstan onto
 
I really like the noram wet clutch chain box. Been putting them on gokarts and they work awesome. No more burnt clutches or shitty 12t sprocket that burns off immediately. Been buying used/takeoffs from eBay. They are kinda pricey new.

https://www.noramclutch.com/reductio...oxes/gb2-1010/

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NORAM-REDUC...gAAOSwN3BgNvZy

[486] buy yourself a cheap rotatiller to make a capstan out of. They are geared down super low take the tire off the wheel and bingo capstan. The decent ones should have fnr. Should find a “I cannot get it to run” one on cl really cheap.
 
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ThePanzerFuhrer said:
[486] buy yourself a cheap rotatiller to make a capstan out of. They are geared down super low take the tire off the wheel and bingo capstan.
Click to expand...

I was thinking something more in the 40-50lb range
besides, a cheap rototiller in my yard would get used for soil cement. don't wanna get my dad's old troy-bilt dirty as he'd never let me hear the end of it
 
87manche said:
that's an interesting thought.
comet even makes a kit to lock it in the lowest reduction ratio.
https://www.gokartsupply.com/speedr.htm

but I think it's less than 2:1 IIRC.

edit:
always the jackshaft and chain option, but a 60 tooth sprocket is gonna be like 8" in diameter.
Click to expand...

Closer to 12" in diameter.
Put a 10 tooth on the engine and a 60 tooth on the winch.
60 pitch if I remember correctly
What are you going to winch? I would think a 6.5HP predator would probably do what ever you want with 6-1 reduction.
Something here ?
https://www.surpluscenter.com/Gear-...Reducers/Cast-Iron-Shaft-Input-Gear-Reducers/
 
Probably not going to be easy to use - ones I've seen are designed integrally to the engine, and they are pricey new.

I'd use a dual reduction - belt drive with about a 3:1 to a jackshaft and then 2:1 chain would give you 6:1 overall and keep everything reasonably sized. Also makes it pretty easy to change ratio if you need to.
 
Yeah, I'm thinking electric winch and be done with it...



Smittybilt 9500 bounces between 264-345 on Amazon


I have a warn 9k on my car trailer, I cut half the cable off the last one, need to do that to the "newer" one, keeps it from wadding up on the drum, but main reason is better gearing with less wraps
 
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but I'm like 99% sure the old tube frame, and big frame Bolens hydro tractors used a shaft driven hydro diff, also available is the 6 speed diff with high and low range, PLUS both those diff's had a manual locker, you engaged it using a threaded deal on the left rear hub if memory serves. Even better those hydro tractors had hydraulic accessory lift so you could even you that hydro power for a secondary operation, and those old Bolens tractors are absolute tanks, and built to last, and had nearly a 20 year production run ending in the late 79's

It shouldn't be to terribly hard to locate one pretty complete with a junk motor for not too awful much cash, as a lot of them had Wisconsin or Tecumseh engines that are getting expensive to get parts for, if you can find them.
 
What transmission?

Odds are you can just get a random Clelsea or Muncie PTO with the wrong gear for ~$200 and the right gear off eBay for $50-70. I find the Muncie TG6S gears are easier to source but the PTOs themselves are more expensive used.
 
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Projectjunkie said:
Yeah, I'm thinking electric winch and be done with it...



Smittybilt 9500 bounces between 264-345 on Amazon


I have a warn 9k on my car trailer, I cut half the cable off the last one, need to do that to the "newer" one, keeps it from wadding up on the drum, but main reason is better gearing with less wraps
Click to expand...

Seems like a lot less engineering and expense than building a motor setup t run the original winch.
 
ThePanzerFuhrer said:
I really like the noram wet clutch chain box. Been putting them on gokarts and they work awesome. No more burnt clutches or shitty 12t sprocket that burns off immediately. Been buying used/takeoffs from eBay. They are kinda pricey new.

https://www.noramclutch.com/reductio...oxes/gb2-1010/

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NORAM-REDUC...gAAOSwN3BgNvZy
Click to expand...

Those look decent, definitely a good lead, thanks!

Projectjunkie said:
Yeah, I'm thinking electric winch and be done with it...

Smittybilt 9500 bounces between 264-345 on Amazon
Click to expand...

A worm gear mechanical winch is leaps and bounds better than any electric produced. I have a Ramsey 8k worm gear drive that I could put on, but the mechanical winch is so much more capable.

arse_sidewards said:
What transmission?

Odds are you can just get a random Clelsea or Muncie PTO with the wrong gear for ~$200 and the right gear off eBay for $50-70. I find the Muncie TG6S gears are easier to source but the PTOs themselves are more expensive used.
Click to expand...

77 Ford 2wd manual, haven't double checked which kind, but passenger side only PTO hole, and I really need to run the shaft down the drivers side, so a moot point at the moment. I've got a source for a lot of NOS Chelsea parts.
ToughBowtieTruck said:
What about reverse? :homer:
Click to expand...

Considering this was meant to run off a truck PTO, yeah the winch has forward and reverse
 
What are the odds that a guy I know is parting out a 68 F350 that has a NP435 with the correct PTO that I need? Going to snatch up the PTO regardless, I like hoarding parts.

So changing the direction of the thread, NP435 has only a passenger side PTO port, the truck is a 67 M715 with a passenger side drop D60 and divorced NP200. Engine is out and I'm swapping in a Ford 300/NP435. I haven't got the new motor in yet, waiting on the correct flywheel to show up, so I can't fully see how little room I have yet, but this pic (not mine) sorta shows how tight the passenger side of the drivetrain is.

I've thought about mounting pillow blocks under the transmission xmember and transfer case xmember, and running the PTO shaft down low, with some sort of skid plate like a piece of well casing slit in half, then back up after the transfer case, but the U joint angles will likely be awful. Transfer case shifters and e brake linkage takes up a lot of space on the top side of the xmembers.

Anyone have any neat tricks or ideas that I haven't thought of yet?

p1010002-51.jpg
 
make the pto shaft long and run it all the way to the back and jackshaft it over under the bed?

can you flip the winch to the passenger side?
 
87manche said:
make the pto shaft long and run it all the way to the back and jackshaft it over under the bed?

can you flip the winch to the passenger side?
Click to expand...

Should have included that, winch can be flipped around to passenger side input easily.

I need to jackshaft it under the bed, it runs a chain drive from the PTO jackshaft to the input.

AV9082I.jpg
 
Figuring out a way to make the shaft go over/under/around the 205 is gonna suck a hell of a lot less than any of the other options you've come up with so far.
 
I guess I'd probably start looking at how to flip it's input so I could make it work with the PTO I had.

have fun spooling all that cable.
:flipoff2:
 
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