CarterKraft
Red Skull Member
I don't think it is good use of my time to rank how bad back feeding the grid would be, I think we all understand its bad, possibly real bad.
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Shop to House or Generator back feed
- Thread starter CarterKraft
- Start date
GLTHFJ60
Stupid is as stupid does
Lineman haven't been dying because of NEC requiring interlocks and transfer switches
Also you're right, the worst thing you can do is build a suicide cord like you're planning to do, so good luck with that shit
CarterKraft
Red Skull Member
I was wanting to daisy chain technically...
Power shop panel directly via interlocked backfed 50amp breaker
Feed (out of) shop panel via 30 amp breaker to interlocked backfed breaker at house panel.
This would allow the house to be feed from the shops grid or shops generator, both at reduced capacity.
edit: I will make a diagram
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I follow. I don't seed the reason you'd need/want to feed the house off the shop or vice versa.
arse_sidewards
Red Skull Member
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To get the noisy genset further from the house
In my case, I have a fridge and some network gear that I'd like to keep powered on. In reality, a decent 100' extension cord would take care of those.
CarterKraft
Red Skull Member
Among other things besides noise, weather cover, theft, fuel storage etc.
IMO it makes sense out there I don't have a perimeter fence so the house load center is 50' from the street.
Heres a better pic
Right, I was still talking about powering both home and shop. Maybe what I was saying wasn't the most clear.
Yeah I followed.Among other things besides noise, weather cover, theft, fuel storage etc.
IMO it makes sense out there I don't have a perimeter fence so the house load center is 50' from the street.
Heres a better pic
So am I. I have a few things in the shop that I'd want powered during an extended outage. Genset would be running the house and I'd backfeed the shop through an existing subpanel near the house.
CarterKraft
Red Skull Member
This makes sense, is there any neutral/ground traps?Yeah I followed.
Is there a guide I can lookup?
CarterKraft
Red Skull Member
Something like this rinky dink load centrer would be enough it seems.
Square D QO 60 Amp 2-Space 4-Circuit Outdoor Main Lug Load Center with Non-Metallic Enclosure and Neutral QO24L60NRNM - The Home Depot
The Square D QO 60 Amp 2-Space 4-Circuit Fixed Main Lugs Outdoor Load Center is UL listed for residential, commercial and industrial power distribution. This load center is built with a rugged thermoplastic
www.homedepot.com
I have no idea, I'm not a licensed electrician, just grew up on a dairy farm
The overkill in my head says tie together the neutrals/grounds of all 3 panels with a good copper ground rod at the generator panel, but that is likely a no-no since all the neutrals would be tied at all times.Which I supposed if all is grounded properly, then they would always technically be?
Interested to see what a more educated person has to say about it.
GLTHFJ60
Stupid is as stupid does
Yeah I followed.
If you don't pass neutral to the house or shop, this would probably work. Panel lockout or transfer switch would be fine at the shop and house to receive the power from the genny.
The big issue I was thinking of before is if you tied the genny directly into the shop, then tried to backfeed the house from the shop main panel, that wouldn't be cool. This diagram would work to serve both house and shop in my head.
CarterKraft
Red Skull Member
Yeah I was trying to keep from having to buy a "transfer" switch that all seems to carry a $$$ price tag.
A regular load center to split the generator output seems smart and doesn't add much cost at all.
GLTHFJ60
Stupid is as stupid does
Yeah, you can get a 4 slot main lug box for pretty cheap.
CarterKraft
Red Skull Member
I'm gonna show your diagram to the Sparky and see if he makes a faceI have no idea, I'm not a licensed electrician, just grew up on a dairy farm
Which I supposed if all is grounded properly, then they would always technically be?
Interested to see what a more educated person has to say about it.
I like it. Thanks for the input to both of you guys.
Let us know what he says, I'm curious about it myself!I'm gonna show your diagram to the Sparky and see if he makes a face
I like it. Thanks for the input to both of you guys.
CarterKraft
Red Skull Member
He didn't hate it...
But he also wanted to "find" me a 200 amp ATS and Generac Standby generator, replace my house load center etc....
He owes me right now for a job but that's not how I want to spend those bucks.
ATS and Generac is great for wife/kids. I know my house can go several (12ish? depending on how cold) hours without power, and even if nobody is home, camera system notifies loss of connection, so I can beat feet home if needed to fire up the generator. Generac is a big premium to pay for convenience.
CarterKraft
Red Skull Member
When I started talking about neutrals and grounds etc. he mumbled something about splitting this and that and then said we'd need to do X so we'd have to do Y....
I will revisit when heads are less foamy
CarterKraft
Red Skull Member
For the 23 years I have lived here it hasn't been a problem, I have no intention of spending any more towards that system.
He got his 32k watt Generac for $1k through "Deals" and as a pretty good size Generac dealer he can get equipment at a much different price point than I but I still don't think I would spend much money to acquire something that would get used so infrequently.
A Miller Bobcat even though its a shitty standby generator would be a much better use of funds for me.
WutCudGoWrong?
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Didn’t you say your neighbors share the house transformer? I’d be more worried about zapping your neighbor than a lineman, statistically.
Legally, you need a generator with interlock for each house.
But yeah genny with panel in the middle feeding interlock at either end.
The problem with bonding in two spots is you create parallel conductors,
So don’t run a ground from the genny to either end.
Just L1, L2, & N
Each building has its own functional ground systems for safety
Add a ground rod at the genny just for the genny. Go ahead and bond it to the neutral.
Think of it this way: your neighbor has a bonded neutral, the beginning of their ground system (no ground in utility drop right) your house has the same thing. Somewhere nearby the utility pole has the neutral bonded to ground as well.
Duplicate that
Legally, you need a generator with interlock for each house.
But yeah genny with panel in the middle feeding interlock at either end.
The problem with bonding in two spots is you create parallel conductors,
So don’t run a ground from the genny to either end.
Just L1, L2, & N
Each building has its own functional ground systems for safety
Add a ground rod at the genny just for the genny. Go ahead and bond it to the neutral.
Think of it this way: your neighbor has a bonded neutral, the beginning of their ground system (no ground in utility drop right) your house has the same thing. Somewhere nearby the utility pole has the neutral bonded to ground as well.
Duplicate that
CarterKraft
Red Skull Member
Am I not understanding how a interlocked back feed breaker works?
Are you guys suggesting a commercial transfer switch between the meter and the load center will open the neutral and lines?
Are you guys suggesting a commercial transfer switch between the meter and the load center will open the neutral and lines?
CarterKraft
Red Skull Member
This is the commercial version of the breaker interlock kit I am talking about.
Leviton Circuit Breaker Manual Transfer Interlock Accessory Kit LITLK - The Home Depot
With a focus on improved safety, revolutionary design and ease of installation, Leviton takes the load center into the 21st century. Leviton offers a full line of accessories to meet every need when installing
www.homedepot.com
CarterKraft
Red Skull Member
My buddy says my house load center is due to be replaced (preventative maintenance based on placement and age).
I agree it needs to be redone just from a balance, and quality point of view. Whoever added on to the rear of my house did a really shitty job on the electrical and the load center is the Pinnacle of the shitiness.
We talked about splitting the 200amp load center in to two 100's with a manual transfer switch to one load center, I could put the water heater and all the essential loads in that panel.
Due to the cost of putting in the house to shop cable I will probably just build a little lean too shed next to the load center.
But really who knows lol, I got all the parts to add a Interlocked inlet for direct connection to the panel, I'll start there and see if I really use it.
I agree it needs to be redone just from a balance, and quality point of view. Whoever added on to the rear of my house did a really shitty job on the electrical and the load center is the Pinnacle of the shitiness.
We talked about splitting the 200amp load center in to two 100's with a manual transfer switch to one load center, I could put the water heater and all the essential loads in that panel.
Due to the cost of putting in the house to shop cable I will probably just build a little lean too shed next to the load center.
But really who knows lol, I got all the parts to add a Interlocked inlet for direct connection to the panel, I'll start there and see if I really use it.
AKnate
Icehole
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You'd need a huge gen set for that to even be a possibility. Otherwise it'll just overload it and stall or trip the breaker.
aczlan
Good Morning!
If you want to take neutrals to different transformers completely out of the equation, get a 200 amp 3 phase switch and put it between the meter and one of the main panels.
Something like this (but not fused?): SQUARE D 200 AMP FUSED SAFETY SWITCH 240 VAC 50 HP 3 PHASE H324-N | eBay
Then a smaller one between the house panel and the shop panel.
Mount a matched pair of single keyway Kirk Key type trapped key interlocks on those two disconnects such that the key can't be removed unless the disconnect is off (set it up to hit the latch for the door when the door is locked closed?).
They also make a double throw version of the 200a switch, but it's $400+ even used.
Aaron Z
Something like this (but not fused?): SQUARE D 200 AMP FUSED SAFETY SWITCH 240 VAC 50 HP 3 PHASE H324-N | eBay
Then a smaller one between the house panel and the shop panel.
Mount a matched pair of single keyway Kirk Key type trapped key interlocks on those two disconnects such that the key can't be removed unless the disconnect is off (set it up to hit the latch for the door when the door is locked closed?).
They also make a double throw version of the 200a switch, but it's $400+ even used.
Aaron Z
GLTHFJ60
Stupid is as stupid does
Utility only provides L1, L2 and G right, not neutral? That's why I was suggesting that he supply the two hots and ground to each panel, then create the bond/earth at each panel, like the utility did.
I like your plan.