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Settle a debate. Fuel pump edition

Was just going through exactly this yesterday with a close buddy, the 4635 Jeep TJ (Barbie Pink TJ), making some changes after KOH.

In tank pumps are nice, if you're not doing squat. Otherwise, they're just one more failure point that makes replacement, troubleshooting, etc. a PITA. There's a reason you don't see many...if any...in tank pumps on most racers.

I told him to go with either a Walbro 255 or Bosch 044. Both are good pumps, common, and cheap enough to buy a few. E2000 is good, but I've known several people who've had issues with them from parts stores. I run a Walbro 255 (GSL392) on my 4.0 powered buggy...never an issue.

I run an Aeromotive A1000 FPR, been flawless. I think that's what he picked up as well. He thought about running a dual redundant pump system, but I think on the 4600 car it might just be overkill. With AN fittings and it placed right, you can have it swapped in a few minutes. Sure, time out of car, but he's not going for, nor ever will be (especially thanks to Ford) a win.

My setup which he'll be mirroring: Tank > On/Off Valve > 100 Micron Filter > Pump > FPR > Rail Connection
 
Freerider15 said:
In tank pumps are nice, if you're not doing squat. Otherwise, they're just one more failure point that makes replacement, troubleshooting, etc. a PITA. There's a reason you don't see many...if any...in tank pumps on most racers.
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with all due respect, this statement is false.

dual intank pumps is superior in everyway to a single external pump. there is ZERO reason to line up for a race with only one fuel pump plumbed. if you start dropping fuel pressure a second pump should only be a switch away.

90% of issues with fuel pump failures is bad plumbing and undersize wiring.
 
mobil1syn said:
with all due respect, this statement is false.

dual intank pumps is superior in everyway to a single external pump. there is ZERO reason to line up for a race with only one fuel pump plumbed. if you start dropping fuel pressure a second pump should only be a switch away.

90% of issues with fuel pump failures is bad plumbing and undersize wiring.
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We'll just have to agree to disagree. Sure, dual pumps is nice...but not really a "need" especially in the 4600 class.

Myself, I'd never see myself running internal pumps, IMO, it's an inferior setup in every way I've had to deal with. The only positive in my mind, is using the fuel to help cool the pump...which even then is "meh".
 
JR4X said:
A 4.0 doesn’t get adequate coolant circulation to the back of the engine so cylinder 6 runs hotter than the rest.
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I don't know anything about Jeep 4.0 engines, but is there no way to run an external AN line from the water pump to the back of the block to feed cool water directly to #6? This is a pretty standard practice on small block Chevy race engines.
 
665.0coupe said:
I don't know anything about Jeep 4.0 engines, but is there no way to run an external AN line from the water pump to the back of the block to feed cool water directly to #6? This is a pretty standard practice on small block Chevy race engines.
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In general stock form, no.

Would it be that hard? no.

I've got AN fitting TIG'd onto my waterpump (rear mounted radiator), and you could use the heater core outlet on the waterpump to feed the back of the head through a modification of one of the freeze plugs.

Would definitely be interesting to see done.
 
Freerider15 said:
In general stock form, no.

Would it be that hard? no.

I've got AN fitting TIG'd onto my waterpump (rear mounted radiator), and you could use the heater core outlet on the waterpump to feed the back of the head through a modification of one of the freeze plugs.

Would definitely be interesting to see done.
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I was pretty sure there isn't anything in the stock parts bin that would make this work.

You might be able to modify a freeze plug, or just drill and tap the block/head for a fitting.
 
665.0coupe said:
I was pretty sure there isn't anything in the stock parts bin that would make this work.

You might be able to modify a freeze plug, or just drill and tap the block/head for a fitting.
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If I were to do it, offhand I'd tig a plate to the rear plug and just connect a line from there to the waterpump.

I've never had any issues with that respect, so nothing to really deal with.

The 7.3L diesel is known to have deadhead issues as well, but obviously apples to oranges.
 
Freerider15 said:
In general stock form, no.

Would it be that hard? no.

I've got AN fitting TIG'd onto my waterpump (rear mounted radiator), and you could use the heater core outlet on the waterpump to feed the back of the head through a modification of one of the freeze plugs.

Would definitely be interesting to see done.
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See my post#19

Should be easy to replicate.
 
Opiebennett said:
Pretty sure both my HO XJ's (91-96) and my YJ and my current 92 MJ i know for surehad the same flow through, but all the TJ's and 97+ xj got the returnless.

Not sure what a 98 ZJ would have had.
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"Flow through" they are talking about is fuel flowing all the way through the fuel rail. On this '95 xj rail you could move the inlet to the rear of the rail and have it flow through to the front, or put the reg at the rear and have it flow through to the firewall.

Factory setup dead heads in the rear of the fuel rail and if the fuel sits there it starts to boil.

Return style vs return less usually refers to whether there is a regular outside of the tank
 
mobil1syn said:
racing 4600 is a race against the clock, not much else. being able to flip a switch when you lose a pump could save you easily an hr in a race, which could mean a podium and finish.
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While I don't disagree...didn't see any pump issues offhand this year (might have been, I just didn't see them). Also, running the low(er) HP that the 4600 class does, you're not stressing pumps near as much.

Dual pumps would likely be my go to, but I wouldn't be worried about running a single pump mounted in a means to make swap out a 10 minute or less deal.
 
Freerider15 said:
While I don't disagree...didn't see any pump issues offhand this year (might have been, I just didn't see them). Also, running the low(er) HP that the 4600 class does, you're not stressing pumps near as much.

Dual pumps would likely be my go to, but I wouldn't be worried about running a single pump mounted in a means to make swap out a 10 minute or less deal.
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I just really dont follow the logic. If your buying a second pump as a spare (would need one if your planning to swap mid race), then your buying two pumps anyways. So the only real cost you have to plumb up two pumps would be a couple of fittings. Easy decision for me to put in two pumps to have a second ready to go via a switch vs a 10 minute swap.
 
broken4_racing said:
I just really dont follow the logic. If your buying a second pump as a spare (would need one if your planning to swap mid race), then your buying two pumps anyways. So the only real cost you have to plumb up two pumps would be a couple of fittings. Easy decision for me to put in two pumps to have a second ready to go via a switch vs a 10 minute swap.
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Don't disagree, but sometimes space and other factors might limit it.

Some might also just rather swap a pump than dealing with the added wiring, pump switch, etc.
 
Freerider15 said:
Don't disagree, but sometimes space and other factors might limit it.

Some might also just rather swap a pump than dealing with the added wiring, pump switch, etc.
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No trying to be stubborn, but I still don't see it. A racecar always has room for a 2"x6" pump. And again, its a racecar, two extra lengths of wire and a switch is well worth the 10 minutes. But thats my logic lol
 
broken4_racing said:
No trying to be stubborn, but I still don't see it. A racecar always has room for a 2"x6" pump. And again, its a racecar, two extra lengths of wire and a switch is well worth the 10 minutes. But thats my logic lol
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To each their own, but it's not all positive.

Every action has a risk. More wiring, more connections, etc. are still more failure points.

I would likely do two myself, but wouldn't stress running one in the 4600 class by any means.
 
mobil1syn said:
why?
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Dual tank penetrations, dual in tank pumps, more plumbing to connect as needed (e.g. hydramat).

Heck nope...but that's just my opinion.

As mentioned, I believe in tank is inferior in both racing and wheeling scenarios (from a lot of personal experience).
 
If you ran 90s Ford dual tank pumps with the integrated check valve you could just run both in parallel with no extra wires and no extra plumbing. If one dies you wouldn't even know.:laughing:
 
Freerider15 said:
To each their own, but it's not all positive.

Every action has a risk. More wiring, more connections, etc. are still more failure points.

I would likely do two myself, but wouldn't stress running one in the 4600 class by any means.
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Redundant systems are why keep airplanes from crashing more than you might realize. Are you saying that because of having a redundant system you are at twice the risk of failure issues because of it? I'd disagree with your logic.
 
too tall said:
Redundant systems are why keep airplanes from crashing more than you might realize. Are you saying that because of having a redundant system you are at twice the risk of failure issues because of it? I'd disagree with your logic.
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As someone with 90% of a Masters in Systems Engineering, I'm well aware how things and redundancies are setup 🤣.

But, to say it's all unicorns and rainbows...it's not. Even that stuff gets outlined in a true FMEA.

As mentioned, if it were me I would. However, if setup well, it's also is a quick swap in the field...and it's 4600 we're talking about...of which 99% of the field is just aiming to finish.
 
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