SE hydro ram vs DE hydro ram steering setup

[The Unknown]

I am in the process of figuring out my front axle steering situation (GM KP 60 on 40's) and was reminded of something I saw a while back. My plan was/is to go the DE route but this pic was recently posted in another thread and got me thinking, why don't we see more hydro steering setups like the JHF Lasernut buggy?

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I've seen quite a few examples of SE ram setups that attach directly to the tie rod but this is the only recent example of the ram attaching to the high steer arm/knuckle that I can find. Seems to be advantageous for a couple reasons that I see. Among other things less trussing/skids required to protect, ease of mounting, fewer joints and differing tie rod angles. Seems like everyone is running DE ram setups these days which appear to be more complicated and expensive. Am I missing something here? Are there any obvious or not so obvious reasons why not to go the SE ram route?

 

[Provience]

here is my current steering setup, 2 small rams on the arms though instead of a single ram on 1 side or a center mounted DE cylinder. yeah, i'm a long ways from functional but here are my thoughts anyways.

Double ended center mounted ram is actually pretty simple and can be more of a high clearance setup rather than having a tie rod hanging out in the rocks. added bonus, is the equal volume for left and right. running a single ended ram like your picture above is plenty common/popular but does have the difference in volume and can (will) have some difference in amount of turning ratio left vs right. enough to care about? probably not, but that is a personal question. when was the last time you counted steering wheel rotations while driving rather than "does the car need to move more that way? turn wheel more..." likely not often, so likely not an issue in reality.

ram to the arm/knuckle takes nearly all the cylinder/ram side loading off so you can get away with a smaller diameter rod and the tierod helps take up some of the impact load marginally. because you can run a smaller rod, you can also run a smaller cylinder, so you can also run a smaller steering valve and pump with better results. being able to play with your cylinder volume is nice instead of being committed to a large cylinder.

 

[The Unknown]

Thanks for jumping in. I briefly looked into the thread you posted regarding your setup and my head started to hurt lol. I've been meaning to sit down and read through it and actually try to digest the info but haven't had the time.

While researching the SE vs DE stuff I saw balanced and unbalanced cylinders mentioned. The discussion wasn't exactly clear but I assume the balanced cylinders are the DE variety. Although like you mentioned the difference in steering ratio might not be noticeable, I am OCD weird about stuff like that. Just the thought of it bugs the shit out of me lol. My thought, and maybe you could shed some light on it, wouldn't the SE ram have equal fluid on either side of the piston assuming it was setup to be centered when the wheels are straight? IE; an 8" stroke SE ram mounted to allow 4" of steering in either direction. It makes sense in my head but maybe I am missing something obvious as I am relatively new to all of this.

Edit- The more I think about it, the piston is taking up space inside the cylinder on the "top" of the rod so to speak so splitting the stroke in half wouldn't allow for equal fluid on either side. I assume that is where the difference in steering ratio comes from? I haven't cracked one of these cylinders open but lets say the piston takes up 1" of space, I'd have to offset the stroke by half of that to get equal volume/force on either side? Using the 8" example above, travel would then be 4.5" in one direction and 3.5" in the other. If that is true I could then get a ram with slightly more travel than what I actually need and internally/externally limit it to give me equal stroke and essentially a balanced SE ram? Prob more work than it is worth and might as well go with a DE at that point. I know I am rambling and will prob reread this tomorrow and think WTH was I talking about but it kinda makes sense at the moment.

Edit......again- The rod itself takes up significant space inside the cylinder so getting equal fluid on either side is impossible. It didn't even take me until to tomorrow to figure out the error in my thinking. Boy am I proud of myself.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

If you are OCD and turning slightly more one way than the other makes your head hurt, wait until you have to deal with the steering wheel never being in the same position twice after you shut it off. Do yourself a favor and get a splined quick release steering wheel setup when you go full hydro so you can re-enter the wheel constantly.

 

[Provience]

Thanks for jumping in. I briefly looked into the thread you posted regarding your setup and my head started to hurt lol. I've been meaning to sit down and read through it and actually try to digest the info but haven't had the time.

While researching the SE vs DE stuff I saw balanced and unbalanced cylinders mentioned. The discussion wasn't exactly clear but I assume the balanced cylinders are the DE variety. Although like you mentioned the difference in steering ratio might not be noticeable, I am OCD weird about stuff like that. Just the thought of it bugs the shit out of me lol. My thought, and maybe you could shed some light on it, wouldn't the SE ram have equal fluid on either side of the piston assuming it was setup to be centered when the wheels are straight? IE; an 8" stroke SE ram mounted to allow 4" of steering in either direction. It makes sense in my head but maybe I am missing something obvious as I am relatively new to all of this.

Edit- The more I think about it, the piston is taking up space inside the cylinder on the "top" of the rod so to speak so splitting the stroke in half wouldn't allow for equal fluid on either side. I assume that is where the difference in steering ratio comes from? I haven't cracked one of these cylinders open but lets say the piston takes up 1" of space, I'd have to offset the stroke by half of that to get equal volume/force on either side? Using the 8" example above, travel would then be 4.5" in one direction and 3.5" in the other. If that is true I could then get a ram with slightly more travel than what I actually need and internally/externally limit it to give me equal stroke and essentially a balanced SE ram? Prob more work than it is worth and might as well go with a DE at that point. I know I am rambling and will prob reread this tomorrow and think WTH was I talking about but it kinda makes sense at the moment.

Edit......again- The rod itself takes up significant space inside the cylinder so getting equal fluid on either side is impossible. It didn't even take me until to tomorrow to figure out the error in my thinking. Boy am I proud of myself.

yup, absolutely.

part of the reason why i'm using dual cylinders, keeps the system balanced in addition to giving me an extra displacement option and a "backup" option if one ram decides to fuck off, i can use the other to get by, and the moar or equal force out of a smaller package.

that's why i asked if you would notice most people just turn until they need to turn more or turn less. just ignore the wheel and drive the car

my thread has a ton of information poorly organized and out of order I ramble pretty bad, so please ask questions if you have them about it and i'll do my best to try to clarify what i MEANT to say as it might be different than what i actually say

 

[The Unknown]

If you are OCD and turning slightly more one way than the other makes your head hurt, wait until you have to deal with the steering wheel never being in the same position twice after you shut it off. Do yourself a favor and get a splined quick release steering wheel setup when you go full hydro so you can re-enter the wheel constantly.

I've already planned for that. This is the wheel I'll be running.

Less time worrying about re-centering the wheel and more time counting turns lock to lock In reality it doesn't bother me all THAT much lol. As long as it isn't a significant difference I think I'll manage.

 

[Provience]

Just as an example:

If you were to use a 2"x8" stroke single ended ram with a 3/4" shaft, you'd have 25.12 cubic inch on the nonshaft side and 21.6 cubic inch on the shaft side.

at 1650 PSI, it will generate about 5,184lbs and 4,455 non-shaft/shaft side and take about 2.58 turns "lock to lock" if you go all the way with the nonshaft side and then take 2.22 turns "lock to lock" to come back with the shaft side if you use a 9.7 cubic inch open center NON load reacting steering valve. that valve wants 4 gpm, that trail gear pump in the link won't quite get you there off idle, but not much further up in RPM and it should be plenty of volume. check out the Steering Displacement and Speed Calculator - irate4x4 to play around with some pump options and see what suits your need.


Trail-Gear Hydro Ram, 2" x 8" (polyperformance.com)

Trail-Gear Power Flow 1650psi Power Steering Pump (polyperformance.com)

Eaton 241-1005-002 9.7 Cu.Inch Steering Valve - 4 Series - Midwest Steering

 

[The Unknown]

Just as an example:

If you were to use a 2"x8" stroke single ended ram with a 3/4" shaft, you'd have 25.12 cubic inch on the nonshaft side and 21.6 cubic inch on the shaft side.

at 1650 PSI, it will generate about 5,184lbs and 4,455 non-shaft/shaft side and take about 2.58 turns "lock to lock" if you go all the way with the nonshaft side and then take 2.22 turns "lock to lock" to come back with the shaft side if you use a 9.7 cubic inch open center NON load reacting steering valve. that valve wants 4 gpm, that trail gear pump in the link won't quite get you there off idle, but not much further up in RPM and it should be plenty of volume. check out the Steering Displacement and Speed Calculator - irate4x4 to play around with some pump options and see what suits your need.


Trail-Gear Hydro Ram, 2" x 8" (polyperformance.com)

Trail-Gear Power Flow 1650psi Power Steering Pump (polyperformance.com)

Eaton 241-1005-002 9.7 Cu.Inch Steering Valve - 4 Series - Midwest Steering

Very nice, thanks for the example. I actually have a previously unidentified orbital and pump from a project that I parted out. I'll pull them out again and report back and maybe ask for a little help with identification. I was unable to find anything online when I pulled them from the buggy they came off of but maybe I missed a part number somewhere. I might already have what I need sitting on the shelf. I never get that lucky though so I won't hold my breath. In the mean time I'll play around with the calculator you linked and see what I want, what will actually fit/work and what I and can live with . Thanks for the help so far

 

[The Unknown]

This is the pump. The only thing that comes up when I do a search using the numbers cast into the housing is compatibility with a Citroen. Maybe it is an OE pump from something or another but I obviously have no clue. Looks like the PSC pumps that I have seen but IDK. It has a Howe pulley on it and there was a Howe reservoir that I pulled as well. Just didn't take a picture of it. Any ideas?

 

[The Unknown]

Same situation here, nothing comes up when I search the casting numbers. I suspect I may be out of luck since the sticker/tag is missing. Looks like an Easton/Char Lynn to me but again I have no idea what I am looking at. I am going to keep searching but welcome any insight into how to identify what I have.

 

[Provience]

This is the pump. The only thing that comes up when I do a search using the numbers cast into the housing is compatibility with a Citroen. Maybe it is an OE pump from something or another but I obviously have no clue. Looks like the PSC pumps that I have seen but IDK. It has a Howe pulley on it and there was a Howe reservoir that I pulled as well. Just didn't take a picture of it. Any ideas?

filedata/fetch?id=272216&d=1610686145 filedata/fetch?id=272217&d=1610686131 filedata/fetch?id=272218&d=1610686203 filedata/fetch?id=272220&d=1610686343 filedata/fetch?id=272221&d=1610686399

howe pulley and a howe reservoir probably means it's a howe pump. looks like a TC pump that i recently learned should be a 0.64 cubic inch displacement and with a 4.5" pulley, do some quick math on what your crankshaft pulley diameter is and there is your ratio, but that should be a pretty decent bit of overdrive hang on to it, if you don't want it, i'll take it

 

[Mr Stubs]

So, single vs. double eh, I remember when I had the same questions and went single....

What a horrible fucking decision that was.

Do you like bending tie rods? Because you will. I’ve bent every single one I’ve had.

Do you like weak ass steering? Because I can turn my steering wheel and not have the tires turn. At times it’s like a manual fucking Toyota truck all over again.

Do you want a big reservoir? Because you will need one compared to a DE system.

Do you care about the steering being consistent side to side? It wasn’t a issue with me but others freak out about it.

Ask yourself. Why isn’t a guy like Jesse still building rigs like you posted? It’s because it’s old, outdated, and there is a better working solution now.


Here is mine, It’s getting swapped to a DE system now. You can find the build in Gen 4x4 under Skittles.

 

[Provience]

Same situation here, nothing comes up when I search the casting numbers. I suspect I may be out of luck since the sticker/tag is missing. Looks like an Easton/Char Lynn to me but again I have no idea what I am looking at. I am going to keep searching but welcome any insight into how to identify what I have.



filedata/fetch?id=272237&d=1610686512 filedata/fetch?id=272238&d=1610686555 filedata/fetch?id=272239&d=1610686578 filedata/fetch?id=272240&d=1610686585 filedata/fetch?id=272241&d=1610686589

well, there'd need to be a tag on it to get the actual pump specs, otherwise i'm not help on that.

odds are excellent that it is an open center valve.

it might be load reacting, it might not be. if it IS reacting, then you'll need to use "balanced" cylinders. if it is NOT reacting then you can use a single, single ended ram.

random guess that the 12744 is the cubic inch displacement? I dunno, but 12.7 wouldn't be a bad size at all.

might have to take it in to an eaton service place and have them take it apart and find out. other option would be to hook it up to any pump and any cylinder and do some math and see what you've got.

having the short steering shaft is nice :) that should be able to fit whatever you end up needing

 

[The Unknown]

howe pulley and a howe reservoir probably means it's a howe pump. looks like a TC pump that i recently learned should be a 0.64 cubic inch displacement and with a 4.5" pulley, do some quick math on what your crankshaft pulley diameter is and there is your ratio, but that should be a pretty decent bit of overdrive hang on to it, if you don't want it, i'll take it

Kinda what I suspected as well but their webpage is pretty vague. I did a little more research and found more markings indicating it is in fact a Howe 1300 psi pump. Just had to remove a little bit more of the left over "seasoning" from the PO. Sorry but I am keeping this one for now. However if for whatever reason it doesn't work out for my needs it is all yours.

well, there'd need to be a tag on it to get the actual pump specs, otherwise i'm not help on that.

odds are excellent that it is an open center valve.

it might be load reacting, it might not be. if it IS reacting, then you'll need to use "balanced" cylinders. if it is NOT reacting then you can use a single, single ended ram.

random guess that the 12744 is the cubic inch displacement? I dunno, but 12.7 wouldn't be a bad size at all.

might have to take it in to an eaton service place and have them take it apart and find out. other option would be to hook it up to any pump and any cylinder and do some math and see what you've got.

having the short steering shaft is nice :) that should be able to fit whatever you end up needing

As suspected the orbital identification unfortunately isn't so easy. I found an Eaton catalog that listed every possible dimension, spec etc for most if not all of the orbitals they offer. I saw no mention of casting numbers so I am going to assume that your recommendation of taking it to a service place is prob my only option. I am not interested in doing that so I think I am just going to run it and see what happens. I think I've settled on the DE setup as it was my original plan and I haven't found any compelling reason to switch it up and go with a single SE ram at this point. No chance I am going to try and tackle what you have going on either lol.

 

[The Unknown]

So, single vs. double eh, I remember when I had the same questions and went single....

What a horrible fucking decision that was.

Do you like bending tie rods? Because you will. I’ve bent every single one I’ve had.

Do you like weak ass steering? Because I can turn my steering wheel and not have the tires turn. At times it’s like a manual fucking Toyota truck all over again.

Do you want a big reservoir? Because you will need one compared to a DE system.

Do you care about the steering being consistent side to side? It wasn’t a issue with me but others freak out about it.

Ask yourself. Why isn’t a guy like Jesse still building rigs like you posted? It’s because it’s old, outdated, and there is a better working solution now.


Here is mine, It’s getting swapped to a DE system now. You can find the build in Gen 4x4 under Skittles.

Do tell.

No

No

Nope

Eh, prob

The buggy I referenced was in fact the only JHF chassis I could find that was setup that way. Before I really dug in and researched it seemed like a simple, effective way of doing it. The more I read the more apparent it was that going with a DE def had its advantages.


I've been watching your Skittles thread, looks like a very capable and fun rig. All of the pictures and descriptions make it a good read, not to mention your knuckle welding technique gives me and my "little" welder something to look up to. Thanks for the SE ram perspective and sharing the build.

 

[Provience]

...

Do you like weak ass steering? Because I can turn my steering wheel and not have the tires turn. At times it’s like a manual fucking Toyota truck all over again.

...

Here is mine, It’s getting swapped to a DE system now. You can find the build in Gen 4x4 under Skittles.

what power steering pump, steering valve and cylinder were you running? are you just changing the ram to DE?

 

[Provience]

Kinda what I suspected as well but their webpage is pretty vague. I did a little more research and found more markings indicating it is in fact a Howe 1300 psi pump. Just had to remove a little bit more of the left over "seasoning" from the PO. Sorry but I am keeping this one for now. However if for whatever reason it doesn't work out for my needs it is all yours.



As suspected the orbital identification unfortunately isn't so easy. I found an Eaton catalog that listed every possible dimension, spec etc for most if not all of the orbitals they offer. I saw no mention of casting numbers so I am going to assume that your recommendation of taking it to a service place is prob my only option. I am not interested in doing that so I think I am just going to run it and see what happens. I think I've settled on the DE setup as it was my original plan and I haven't found any compelling reason to switch it up and go with a single SE ram at this point. No chance I am going to try and tackle what you have going on either lol.

well certainly come back and update whenever you get it going on how it works out if it's free and you already have it, there is no reason not to rock that orbital first. at least if you don't like it, you'll be able to sell it and roughly know what size and such that it is. that's certainly worth a good bit of value towards buying the replacement

 

[ScottRS]

As suspected the orbital identification unfortunately isn't so easy. I found an Eaton catalog that listed every possible dimension, spec etc for most if not all of the orbitals they offer. I saw no mention of casting numbers so I am going to assume that your recommendation of taking it to a service place is prob my only option. I am not interested in doing that so I think I am just going to run it and see what happens. I think I've settled on the DE setup as it was my original plan and I haven't found any compelling reason to switch it up and go with a single SE ram at this point. No chance I am going to try and tackle what you have going on either lol.

On the orbital, there's a casting and a disc section. The disc section should be composed of a stack of several discs. Measure the thickness of the thickest disc; post it up here. That will tell you (approximate) valve displacement even without a number from this valve, if you compare to another valve of known displacement and disc thickness. Volume1/thickness1 = volume2/thickness2. It's not perfect across brands, but it's close-enough. Other option is, put hydraulic oil into the input, turn it slowly exactly one turn, measure how much oil comes out the L or R port, that's your displacement. Difficult to do without being hooked up to a whole system.

Open center is pretty critical. Easy check, put on the safety glasses, blow air into the P port, see if it comes out the T port. If it does, it's open center and so far so good. If not, life sucks, you need a different valve or a bunch more plumbing and valving to make that work. Hopefully it's open center. If that checks out, keep the safety glasses on, blow air into the L or R port and see if the input spins and the air comes out the other of the L or R. No love, it's non-reactive. Spin-n-blow, it's reactive (return to center).

 

[The Unknown]

On the orbital, there's a casting and a disc section. The disc section should be composed of a stack of several discs. Measure the thickness of the thickest disc; post it up here. That will tell you (approximate) valve displacement even without a number from this valve, if you compare to another valve of known displacement and disc thickness. Volume1/thickness1 = volume2/thickness2. It's not perfect across brands, but it's close-enough. Other option is, put hydraulic oil into the input, turn it slowly exactly one turn, measure how much oil comes out the L or R port, that's your displacement. Difficult to do without being hooked up to a whole system.

Open center is pretty critical. Easy check, put on the safety glasses, blow air into the P port, see if it comes out the T port. If it does, it's open center and so far so good. If not, life sucks, you need a different valve or a bunch more plumbing and valving to make that work. Hopefully it's open center. If that checks out, keep the safety glasses on, blow air into the L or R port and see if the input spins and the air comes out the other of the L or R. No love, it's non-reactive. Spin-n-blow, it's reactive (return to center).

If I get really curious I will do as you suggested and measure the discs. In the meantime the old spin and blow sounds like fun. It came off of an unknown sized DE ram buggy so I am confident that it is an open center valve. Kinda hoping that it is a reactive one but wouldn't be a deal breaker either way. Thanks for the suggestions btw