Plating A and B pillars instead of a cage

[Lil'John]

Title kind of states it.

Picture of similar rig with red lines of the A/B pillars I'd like to reinforce:

To be VERY explicit, the above rig is NOT the target rig. The above rig is going to get a proper and professional cage.

After the B pillar, there will be another ~9" of cab. The rockers will be replaced with 2"x4" tubing that is 3/16" thick(I think)

The existing sheet metal is on the "thicker" side compared to modern rigs(16/18 gauge vs 20/22)

What would your minimum thick plate would you use? Would 10 gauge(~1/8") be thick enough?

The target rig will be a Rubicon light "toy" on 35" tires that will be driven there/back.

 

[Weasel]

attaching it to the Sheetmetal and keeping that connection intact will be the issue. Sorta like welding a rocker into a Cherokee. It does work for awhile but after time goes by the connection points fails as it's just welded to Sheetmetal. If that makes any sense.

 

[Lil'John]

attaching it to the Sheetmetal and keeping that connection intact will be the issue. Sorta like welding a rocker into a Cherokee. It does work for awhile but after time goes by the connection points fails as it's just welded to Sheetmetal. If that makes any sense.

Cut rockers with welded tube:

Check

Wouldn't any failure be the results of bad welding and/or excessive flex? Otherwise, wouldn't any sheetmetal repair fail?😕

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Cut rockers with welded tube:

Check

Wouldn't any failure be the results of bad welding and/or excessive flex? Otherwise, wouldn't any sheetmetal repair fail?😕

Just plate won't be that strong. It also depends on the factory structure. I've seen many 1st and 2nd gen pick up cabs flattened from minor rolls. On the other hand, I've seen 2nd and 3rd gen 4runners take very hard rolls while still maintaining their basic cab shape.

I'm guessing the iron pig will be somewhere in the middle.



Btw, "walking to the Rubicon" do you live off 50 or near the Georgetown route?

 

[Weasel]

Mine last 6-7 years before cracking and breaking out. Sheetmetal just isn't designed to have heavy tube welded on it and then flex a crap load (or worse drug and slammed on). Everything flexes and way more then folks think.

 

[Lil'John]

Just plate won't be that strong. It also depends on the factory structure. I've seen many 1st and 2nd gen pick up cabs flattened from minor rolls. On the other hand, I've seen 2nd and 3rd gen 4runners take very hard rolls while still maintaining their basic cab shape.

I'm guessing the iron pig will be somewhere in the middle.

My thought is that adding some plate or other "hidden" structure, I can improve the strength in the body.

Btw, "walking to the Rubicon" do you live off 50 or near the Georgetown route?

I'm 10 miles outside of Georgetown toward Rubicon ;)

Mine last 6-7 years before cracking and breaking out. Sheetmetal just isn't designed to have heavy tube welded on it and then flex a crap load (or worse drug and slammed on). Everything flexes and way more then folks think.

The above example sliders were done by a professional shop whose work and opinion I trust. He did a similar 2x4 tubing setup on another pig that hasn't failed. His claim is if the 2x4 tube rocker fails, it will be in the middle of an epic wheeling failure.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

My thought is that adding some plate or other "hidden" structure, I can improve the strength in the body.

Something like the lower section of this?

I'm 10 miles outside of Georgetown toward Rubicon ;)

Was just curious if you had been driving by my job site. Working right at the fresh Pond sign on 50.


The above example sliders were done by a professional shop whose work and opinion I trust. He did a similar 2x4 tubing setup on another pig that hasn't failed. His claim is if the 2x4 tube rocker fails, it will be in the middle of an epic wheeling failure.

The 2x4 isn't the issue, it's the body flexing differently than the 2x4 and eventually cracking right next to the weld. Not saying not to do it. But unless you do a full wrc style mono structure type deal, eventually you'll have some cracks.

I like the idea over all, I wanted to do some ~12g plate welded to the bottom of the doors on my old 4runner. Add capped dimple dies for even more

 

[Lil'John]

The 2x4 isn't the issue, it's the body flexing differently than the 2x4 and eventually cracking right next to the weld. Not saying not to do it. But unless you do a full wrc style mono structure type deal, eventually you'll have some cracks.

I like the idea over all, I wanted to do some ~12g plate welded to the bottom of the doors on my old 4runner. Add capped dimple dies for even more

You took a cool looking approach.

I was actually thinking of doing plating on the inside cab of the A and B pillars. I'm not sure I have a good picture of those handy.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

It's just 2x2x120 that I sliced in half to slip over the 1 3/4 Dom. If I do another, I'd probably use 2x3, cut more of the cab out and not run the 1 3/4 all the way down.

 

[Weasel]

The 2x4 isn't the issue, it's the body flexing differently than the 2x4 and eventually cracking right next to the weld. Not saying not to do it. But unless you do a full wrc style mono structure type deal, eventually you'll have some cracks.

Exactly. I wanted to do something on my XJ but the body was so cracked and busted up it wasn't worth it.

 

[Lil'John]

I think there is a little confusion. I'm talking about plating the inside of the cab.

Here is a good example of the B pillar with red showing the plating:

Here is a bad picture of an A pillar:

I'm not sure I see flexing happening in those locations. The above pictures are what I could find showing the location on another rig and not the actual rig getting the work done.

 

[Phil]

Flat steel is not strong. Strong steel is not thin. I don’t expect “plating” with any reasonable material will add much strength alone. Playing the outside and inside, and connecting between, would help much.

a shit ton of bender time, and you might be able to hide a real tube cage mostly inside the trim pieces.

 

[Lil'John]

Flat steel is not strong. Strong steel is not thin. I don’t expect “plating” with any reasonable material will add much strength alone. Playing the outside and inside, and connecting between, would help much.

a shit ton of bender time, and you might be able to hide a real tube cage mostly inside the trim pieces.

Sadly, I don't have a bender so doing a cage isn't really in the plans.

 

[POR]

Sadly, I don't have a bender so doing a cage isn't really in the plans.

I see your math, I think you'll add considerable strength like your talking.. problem I see is when those areas don't "give" you will see failures all around the welded plate and deeper in your cab structure, with possible tearing when things don't buckle as designed. What I don't see is giving "cage" safety but giving you bash protection.

 

[Toreadorranger]

Sadly, I don't have a bender so doing a cage isn't really in the plans.

Have you thought about designing a no bend cage? Its been done before, with some planning it could be decent.

 

[Wulf]

I think there is a little confusion. I'm talking about plating the inside of the cab.

Here is a good example of the B pillar with red showing the plating:

Here is a bad picture of an A pillar:


I'm not sure I see flexing happening in those locations. The above pictures are what I could find showing the location on another rig and not the actual rig getting the work done.

what if you plated these spots on the B pillar and tied in both sides with an X?

 

[Lil'John]

I see your math, I think you'll add considerable strength like your talking.. problem I see is when those areas don't "give" you will see failures all around the welded plate and deeper in your cab structure, with possible tearing when things don't buckle as designed. What I don't see is giving "cage" safety but giving you bash protection.

The main consideration is just preventing the whole structure from folding on me in event of a mild roll.

Have you thought about designing a no bend cage? Its been done before, with some planning it could be decent.

I'd have to look up no bend cage.

what if you plated these spots on the B pillar and tied in both sides with an X?

Unfortunately, this picture shows the seats in the way of doing an X between b-pillars:

 

[Wulf]

Unfortunately, this picture shows the seats in the way of doing an X between b-pillars:
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My bad, I'm having a big brain kind of week 🤣

Is there enough head room to run a tube along the roof to tie the two together?


I'm thinking that you would want to tie them together because the roof might be more prone to buckle in the middle in a hard side impact or flop with beefed up pillars.

 

[Lil'John]

My bad, I'm having a big brain kind of week 🤣

Is there enough head room to run a tube along the roof to tie the two together?


I'm thinking that you would want to tie them together because the roof might be more prone to buckle in the middle in a hard side impact or flop with beefed up pillars.

No worries... my brain getting stuck on "solutions" is why I ask dumb questions like this

I was definitely intending to run tubing or reinforcement side to side. Right now, the roof is just a floppy piece of sheet metal that is ~5'x5'.

 

[Toreadorranger]

I'd have to look up no bend cage.

jpmassey built a buggy years back with no bends in it. Doesn't seem to difficult to translate that into an interior cage.

 

[jpmassey]

jpmassey built a buggy years back with no bends in it. Doesn't seem to difficult to translate that into an interior cage.

I did add a few 1/4" gussets. Cage took a gnarly 30 mph roll. Bowed the driver horizontal down 1" from the impact on the top A/B node, but held up well otherwise.

 

[gt1guy]

Is there enough room to put a real tube inside the B-pillar if you were to drill out the spot welds and open it up?

 

[Stephen Wilson]

You need a structure with some depth, at least like channel, with a connection across the roof, or substantial floor gussets/diagonals to keep it from just flopping to the side. I think flat plates as shown will do virtually nothing to prevent roof crush in a rollover. There's a reason roll cages have a pretty much universal design.

 

[Lil'John]

Is there enough room to put a real tube inside the B-pillar if you were to drill out the spot welds and open it up?

The pillar is maybe 1" deep. I also have to account for the hinge holes

You need a structure with some depth, at least like channel, with a connection across the roof, or substantial floor gussets/diagonals to keep it from just flopping to the side. I think flat plates as shown will do virtually nothing to prevent roof crush in a rollover. There's a reason roll cages have a pretty much universal design.

There is going to be some type of a connection across the roof along with a seat bracket tube b-pillar to b-pillar.

From a strength stand point, I'm looking for something between a cage and no cage.

I found a more complete example of where I'm going:

The space between the b-pillar and new cab back will be filled in cleaner than the above. But it will be filled in outside and inside. Mine has the red X cut out(~24" shorter in the ass) Along the upper rail(shown as an orange line), I used 1" that is 0.120" wall thick. It is welded from the outside(1/4" holes in the body filled with weld) and then fully welded along the top.

Here is before I do the full weld and attach the ass:

Another "wrinkle" for this discussion is the fact I will be doing a double-double roll bar in the "bed". I will be using 1.75" DOM that is 0.120" wall thickness. Yes... the 80's will want their design back But it fits with a 70s/80s rig

 

[2big bronco]

You can just borrow my air over hydro bender so now theres no excuses it's been sitting in my barn for a year or two so just return it a little more cleaned up then you get it and it's all yours.

 

[gt1guy]

Here's another option. Semi sunk in tubes.

 

[rockota]

The concept seems similar to a jk spot cage that EVO made out of chromoly plate...

 

[Lil'John]

You can just borrow my air over hydro bender so now theres no excuses it's been sitting in my barn for a year or two so just return it a little more cleaned up then you get it and it's all yours.

Thank you for the offer. I'd hate to see how much wasted tube I'd end up with trying for two or more duplicate hoops I have a couple resources semi locally that could help bend a tube or three.

This project is going for the cheap ass approach as much as I can

Here's another option. Semi sunk in tubes.

Whoa... very nice. Looks like a lot of work.

The concept seems similar to a jk spot cage that EVO made out of chromoly plate...

I'll have to take a look into this.

 

[chaplinfj60]

intresting for sure

love the no bend approach too...

 

[Ebs]

Another "wrinkle" for this discussion is the fact I will be doing a double-double roll bar in the "bed". I will be using 1.75" DOM that is 0.120" wall thickness. Yes... the 80's will want their design back But it fits with a 70s/80s rig

Run tube from that thru the cab and down the a pillar.