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P0200, misfire, backfire, VERY rich, lack of power after cam swap in 04 LQ4(6.0)

Driving and free-revving are completely different.

You really need a heat gun to measure the exhaust runners... Cold or excessively hot will show dead holes.

Without the MAF and O2's plugged in the sensors can no longer influence fueling. As such, if they are installed incorrectly, exhaust leaks, intake leaks, false lean/rich conditions, etc. are eliminated.
 
Also, you need to reset your fuel trims now that they aren't plugged in. Bank 2 is way richer than 1 now...
 
Driving and free-revving are completely different.

You really need a heat gun to measure the exhaust runners... Cold or excessively hot will show dead holes.

Without the MAF and O2's plugged in the sensors can no longer influence fueling. As such, if they are installed incorrectly, exhaust leaks, intake leaks, false lean/rich conditions, etc. are eliminated.
I'll see what I can do on the ride around.

I carb cleaned all the places I thought might have been leaks... no change in idle.

I'll see what I can figure out on a heat gun.

Also, you need to reset your fuel trims now that they aren't plugged in. Bank 2 is way richer than 1 now...
I knew I forgot a step😑
 
Reset trims. Then a quick run down the hill and then pushed it uphill in the yard. Here is the flat section:
NoMafNoOxygen2.jpg


I played with HPTuner and turned off injectors in the cab. I'm not sure to what degree I should see a difference. One or two different injectors cause a 'felt' difference.
 
You're O2 operation is junk and you need to track down the injector issue, or find out you don't have one because of the O2. Have you messed with any of the tune at all. If so it would help to start fresh with the original tune (as long as the cam isn't too big) AND change the injector data for what you have installed. Is the truck running in blended mode, or Maf failed or what?

I also don't like the position of the o2's at all. You're not gaining all the cylinders and you're too close to the heads (if they truly are in the manifolds where you mspainted them). This is most likely going to be a problem. Put new O2's in it just for shits and giggles. You want to see them switching. STFT and LTFT should not be zero, especially with it untuned. Make sure they are working, AND you are logging the pids.

Do you have a wideband? If not, you're not going to get this thing truly tuned in without it.

Note that 100% tps runs right now without tuning the VE and the maf is not going to help matters, especially if your trims are not working correctly for any of the reasons above. The time and place for that is when you're filling in cells after you've gotten closer.

Some other things. Your scanner page should be logging IAT etc... Make sure those values are looking correct and make sure it goes closed loop. Get the o2's working correctly by getting it to trim, and make sure the maf values are looking reasonable. If the maf is in question then fail it and run SD and see what it looks like.

Its really all hit or miss without a wideband though, but for now be safe with it.
 
You're O2 operation is junk and you need to track down the injector issue, or find out you don't have one because of the O2. Have you messed with any of the tune at all. If so it would help to start fresh with the original tune (as long as the cam isn't too big) AND change the injector data for what you have installed. Is the truck running in blended mode, or Maf failed or what?

I also don't like the position of the o2's at all. You're not gaining all the cylinders and you're too close to the heads (if they truly are in the manifolds where you mspainted them). This is most likely going to be a problem. Put new O2's in it just for shits and giggles. You want to see them switching. STFT and LTFT should not be zero, especially with it untuned. Make sure they are working, AND you are logging the pids.

Do you have a wideband? If not, you're not going to get this thing truly tuned in without it.

Note that 100% tps runs right now without tuning the VE and the maf is not going to help matters, especially if your trims are not working correctly for any of the reasons above. The time and place for that is when you're filling in cells after you've gotten closer.

Some other things. Your scanner page should be logging IAT etc... Make sure those values are looking correct and make sure it goes closed loop. Get the o2's working correctly by getting it to trim, and make sure the maf values are looking reasonable. If the maf is in question then fail it and run SD and see what it looks like.

Its really all hit or miss without a wideband though, but for now be safe with it.

Thanks for the feedback.

The scanner posted in #34 is with the MAF and o2 sensors unplugged. It also includes the fuel trim being reset.

I have four tunes I could screw around with:
Stock 6.0L with stick
'Light' modified 6.0L with stick (mail ordered tweak for stock cam)
Cam modified 6.0L (mail ordered tweak for new cam using 6.0L injectors)
Cam modified 6.0L #2 ('same' as above except for 8.1L injectors)

None of the tunes have been modified by me. I did look at the 8.1L injector tune and verified that the injector information matched the 8.1L stock engine tune(2004 Silverado 8.1L) I also did a scan on some of the changes in the latest tune and I'm confident that I wasn't provided a 'destructive' tune. The tuner is reputable so I have no reason to doubt his tune is in the ballpark. My expectation was to use the tune as a leap off point to dial in.

The cam is what I would term mild: 208/216 | .561"/.561" | LSA113+4 It is "much" more than the stock ~190/190 cam.

As noted, I added a wideband. But it is reading so lean (~18 afr) that I might as well have not wasted money on it. As noted, it is currently cycling 4.15v to 4.25v. The 4.25v is maxed out for the sensor(18.5afr) The wide band is ~30" from my cross over merge and before the muffler. There is no catalytic to interfere.

I do have the IAT as a pid. From previous runs, it occasionally gets to 115F when I am standing still. Between the two multipliers available, even that 'warm' would only pull 2-3 degree of timing. Before multipliers, maximum retard of 20 degrees starts at 158F IAT. But that would require running at 6k rpm and an engine temp under 68F. My ~210F engine temp cuts that down to 38%.

In post 19, you can see that the o2 sensors are cycling. The fuel trims were working before I did a flash of the 8.1L injector modified tune. From my reading, the fuel trims require a fair amount of driving before they become active. From my reading/watching, the long term fuel trims are more of a mask to an imperfect tune(ie non-road or non-dynod tune) In an ideal tune, there would almost be no long term fuel trims in action.

The manifolds are going to be the manifolds. I have some difficulty seeing a factory setup causing that much of an issue. Maybe I need to track down a vette tune to see how they handle o2 readings. I won't be going to headers. I had a set... they warped to shit. The tight frame rails of this rig limit what I can do.
 
You're O2 operation is junk and you need to track down the injector issue, or find out you don't have one because of the O2. Have you messed with any of the tune at all. If so it would help to start fresh with the original tune (as long as the cam isn't too big) AND change the injector data for what you have installed. Is the truck running in blended mode, or Maf failed or what?

I also don't like the position of the o2's at all. You're not gaining all the cylinders and you're too close to the heads (if they truly are in the manifolds where you mspainted them). This is most likely going to be a problem. Put new O2's in it just for shits and giggles. You want to see them switching. STFT and LTFT should not be zero, especially with it untuned. Make sure they are working, AND you are logging the pids.

Do you have a wideband? If not, you're not going to get this thing truly tuned in without it.

Note that 100% tps runs right now without tuning the VE and the maf is not going to help matters, especially if your trims are not working correctly for any of the reasons above. The time and place for that is when you're filling in cells after you've gotten closer.

Some other things. Your scanner page should be logging IAT etc... Make sure those values are looking correct and make sure it goes closed loop. Get the o2's working correctly by getting it to trim, and make sure the maf values are looking reasonable. If the maf is in question then fail it and run SD and see what it looks like.

Its really all hit or miss without a wideband though, but for now be safe with it.

lil Jon, ignore all of this^^
OP read the thread and understand where he's at right now, and why the log looks the way it is
 
So now that the MAF and o2's are failed, and the fuel trims are reset, you can see everything working correctly. Now it's up to you to figure out what holes are dead. Only noticing a difference on 1 or 2 failed injectors is a bad sign, so figure out why that is. Low compression, no spark, no fuel, etc.

Out of curiosity, with everything as it is, how does it run? Drive ok? Notice a difference in power or drivability at all? Probably still down on power?

Now pull all 8 plugs and look at them...
 
Actually, put the wideband back in now. Try the passenger side and see how it reads... I say passenger, because I think you have something going on with the driverside...
 
Thank you for the baby steps on diagnosing this issue. I really appreciate the effort.
So now that the MAF and o2's are failed, and the fuel trims are reset, you can see everything working correctly. Now it's up to you to figure out what holes are dead. Only noticing a difference on 1 or 2 failed injectors is a bad sign, so figure out why that is. Low compression, no spark, no fuel, etc.

Out of curiosity, with everything as it is, how does it run? Drive ok? Notice a difference in power or drivability at all? Probably still down on power?

Now pull all 8 plugs and look at them...
I didn't get a chance to give it a real heavy pull... I didn't want to rip up my 'log road' too much. I will get unblocked and give it a wallop tomorrow and pray no Memorial traffic.

For injector testing, is it sufficient to give it the 12v 'jumper' test and make sure it clicks?

Actually, put the wideband back in now. Try the passenger side and see how it reads... I say passenger, because I think you have something going on with the driverside...

Are you saying put the wideband into the passenger side bung? Or are you saying put the wideband in and connect the passenger side o2?
 
Doesn't need to be a heavy pull. Just how does it run now? Do you notice any difference? Curious if there was any negative compensation from the MAF or o2's.

Leave the MAF/O2's unplugged until you figure out what is causing the dead holes. Put the wideband in the passenger side to monitor fueling, just for curiosity...
 
I only see one log where the trims were on and the o2 operation there is not great. And its a snapshot of a moment in time. I see no STFT operation in those logs. Sure based on that moment in time you show a +6 on one side and 0 on the other. But that's just one moment in time.


You're STFT is a failsafe right now. I'd also have my wideband in and be trusting it.


Popping out the exhaust on decel, one snapshot of a lean LTFT, no power, Lots of o2 lean and one wideband reading of lean off the charts. I'd get the wideband in there and add fuel. The other concerning thing is you barely feel a change when unplugging and injector. They will barely make a change if the thing is running lean, or its random misfires. Sure dead holes can create some of these things in different ways but it might also be just lean. Like was said before pull plugs.

You are correct that LTFT will be minimal when its finally tuned in. But it won't be zero ever due to all the myriad of changes throughout the year and wherever the truck is. I have no experience with any mail order tunes. I stand by what I wrote before, and still think there's no reason to ring this thing out until its running right at lower rpm with good looking data. Internet diagnosis is a hit or miss thing and tough, I'd make sure she's just not lean as shit first.
 
Took it for a real road drive of about 1.5 to 2 miles. I have a small hill and the 'zero' power issue still applies: 2000rpm at start of hill, mash gas, and no 'super' acceleration. This is with both MAF and o2 still not plugged in.

I pulled the passenger side plugs and checked their gap: 0.040" The plugs are NGK 7397 TR5IX. Nothing in my reading hinted that I needed to go different gap than 0.040". Here is picture of them:
plugs1_sml.jpg

The front one shows very dirty in the picture.

I also checked the compression(front to rear): 180, 180, 185, 175 This was tested cold and six seconds of cranking. Nothing was added to the cylinder. Previously, I verified that the valves and rockers were moving with the valve cover off.
 
White insulators = Lean... lean missfires will dump a bunch of raw fuel straight thru into the exhaust. You need to fatten that pig up, it sure ain't rich with all that white showing on the plugs...
 
White insulators = Lean... lean missfires will dump a bunch of raw fuel straight thru into the exhaust. You need to fatten that pig up, it sure ain't rich with all that white showing on the plugs...

White insulator do not necessarily mean lean with modern fuels .You have to look at the color of the first threads steel screw shell. Notice they are quite black . And with a plug reader or otoscope look at the center insulator deep inside.
 
I feel you lil John. Your thinking and over thinking and doing this and that trying figure this puzzle out.

Did you move you injectors from one bank to another? Then with everything plugged back in test drive and see if your lean condition moved to the other side. You gotta think methodically do one thing then recheck. Step by step eventually you will funnel all things out until only the one logical thing is left.
 
I feel you lil John. Your thinking and over thinking and doing this and that trying figure this puzzle out.

Did you move you injectors from one bank to another? Then with everything plugged back in test drive and see if your lean condition moved to the other side. You gotta think methodically do one thing then recheck. Step by step eventually you will funnel all things out until only the one logical thing is left.

I am going to try shuffling the injectors later today. I'm going to wrap up the spark plug/compression test on the driver side today.
 
They've been run way too much and you probably won't get a good reading anyways. Just use a loupe and look at them closely to make sure its not melting down. They are not even, but the image is small on my work computer and I can't make it bigger. Combined with running multiple tunes on them etc.. We have to remember your idle isnt tuned, your maf isn't tuned, and your VE isn't tuned (except by the internet tune, which we don't know how good that is.)

Did you check the driver's side? You need to. Just like was said before they're could be a problem over there.


Put new plugs in it, get the wideband in it (on the passenger side like WayneHartwig said), and make sure your wideband is calibrated per the instructions and setup in HPT with its appropriate information. Log Wideband AFR error % (If you can with your wideband). This kills a bunch of birds with one stone. We can see where its really at. Put the O2 back into (with new ones if possible), and the trims, and log VE LTST err CL with filters for hits. I prefer doing the MAF first, but you're already failed maf IIRC.

Just a theory here, and I think GMCtxt hit it earlier, but I think PE is saving you right now. Could be wrong, but we don't really know without good data.

I know that's going to require a ton of reading and setting up you're scanner. But it's worth it, and you have everything you need to do it! If anybody else has ideas too post 'em up.
 
Sorry, I'm bouncing between a hundred things and I forgot to add. If you can get two wideband bungs in it on either side. That's quick and easy. That way we can log each side bank if needed.
 
I feel you lil John. Your thinking and over thinking and doing this and that trying figure this puzzle out.

Did you move you injectors from one bank to another? Then with everything plugged back in test drive and see if your lean condition moved to the other side. You gotta think methodically do one thing then recheck. Step by step eventually you will funnel all things out until only the one logical thing is left.

It sucks man, but this ^ is right. And its all the nature of the beast. Everybody has ideas and tests to check, nature of the internet diagnosis thing. Don't give up, you'll get.
 
Where are the plugs for the driver's side? Why do you only do partial checks? Check all 8 injectors. Check all 8 plugs. Check compression in all 8. Etc...etc... It is extremely obvious you have a dead hole somewhere, check them all!
 
Where are the plugs for the driver's side? Why do you only do partial checks? Check all 8 injectors. Check all 8 plugs. Check compression in all 8. Etc...etc... It is extremely obvious you have a dead hole somewhere, check them all!

Easy answer to the question on why only a partial test: I've got a project list as long as I am tall. Therefore the time I have available to any given project gets kind of screwed up. Priority gets evaluated constantly... unfortunately, I'm human so frustration over lack of positive progress does impact priority ;)

I pulled the driverside side plugs and checked their gap: 0.040". Here are the plugs/o2:
plugs2_sml.jpg
I also checked the compression(front to rear): 175, 185, 180, 180

So the summary is: all plugs are expected 0.040" gap and the compression is fairly consistent(175, 180, 185). This tells me that I didn't fawk up the head gasket install nor did the plug gap get weird.
 
I did a little bit of checking on the injectors. All eight 'clicked' like a relay when I applied direct 12V across the terminals. I also checked the resistance of all them. All but one were mid 12 ohms. One was 4.2 ohms.

Now the question is: do I have seven bad injectors or just one?
 
I'd ditch the 8.1L injectors and go back to a proper size injector for your engine and put the stock injector data back in. That's a significant unknown in all of this. Also, don't trust your nose for detecting rich / lean. Both smell the same. Trust your WBO2 sensor and what the plugs are showing you.
 
I'd ditch the 8.1L injectors and go back to a proper size injector for your engine and put the stock injector data back in. That's a significant unknown in all of this. Also, don't trust your nose for detecting rich / lean. Both smell the same. Trust your WBO2 sensor and what the plugs are showing you.

The injectors are really that much of an unknown especially with a set used in a stock vehicle. Common swap is DEKA 40, 60, and 80lb injectors. Based upon DEKA swap info, there are four or five spots where information gets changed(I'm not looking at Excel spreadsheet with info) From what I've read and watched, one can swap the injectors and adjust four/five spots on an existing tune then fire up the engine and run around. As I noted, I verified the injector part of the tune against a stock 8.1L tune.

From this web site:
https://www.injectorrx.com/fuel-inj...ors/fuel-injector-data/delphi-fuel-injectors/
The 6.0L injectors(25317628) are 12.6 ohm and 22lbs/hr. The 8.1L injectors(25343789) are 12.8 ohm and 25.86lbs/hr. So maybe 15% 'richer'.

On the wide band, with the level of lean it is reading(18+++, voltage pegged), the engine should have blown up with the first rev... it isn't knocking. In looking at the drive logs, I see one knock VERY rarely. I am going to stuff the wide band in the passenger bank today and see what happens.
 
If you had a good scan tool you could have done an injector balance test in the beginning. It would show you if an injector is under or over fueling. Testing resistance goes like this, if it ohms good it can still be bad and if it ohms bad its bad but can still be good. This is the devil in diagnostics and where you kinda gotta dive deeper into the rabbit hole on how much you really want to know about how things work. Live loaded testing can paint a picture into another world. To do that you need a lab scope like what is on the snap on zues, verus, and modis. Or there are brands like Pico and ATS.
You got one injector and it is not like the others. Like that old song on Sesame Street "one of these things is not like the other". Thats probably your odd man out. at about 12ohms they are pulling about 1 amp. At about 4ohms its pulling about 300mA. Does the low resistance injector sit on the lean bank you posted pictures of? I would replace that injector regardless and drive it again see how it feels and watch the upstream O2 sensors WOT.
 
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