No More Dealer Flat Rate Warranty Pay In Illinois

[jimmy123456789]

It's not uncommon for techs to rape warranty. Stuff like making up fictitious diagnostic procedures, saying a part is bad but just sending the new one back after making it look dirty, running time for work that isn't really being done, etc. Hard to take any pride in your work at that point, but sadly I can't completely fault the people who do this. Warranty times have always been bullshit. It's usually going to take the same amount of time to perform a repair regardless of whether it's customer pay or warranty. No real reason for the tech to be paid less for his time.

I have seen this firsthand, so I understand both sides of the argument.

The warranty time is the real time. The normal time is "what the market will bear".

How many hours of book time does a typical tech that isn't playing on their phone and jerking off in the bathroom making assuming the service writer doesn't fuck them? Well over the 40hr they spend at work.

I’d like some info as to exactly HOW the time studies are done, how many times do they do the job before they average it up and get the “time”? What are the circumstances of doing the work? What sort of tools does the tech doing the job have available, how many techs do the job when studying the time? Is it one guy doing it 10 times and taking the average of that? Or is it 10 guys doing it once and using that average time? What’s the condition of the vehicle and the work area the work is being done in?

The devil is in the details as to how that time was calculated and there’s too many unknown variables for you to say that warranty times are accurate and customer pay is inflated.

And yes, in a busy shop with enough work and good writers it’s not hard to average 50-60+ hours in a 40 hour week. But too many techs get fucked by dumbass writers and warranty times, as I don’t think for a minute that warranty times are “the real time”.

 

[arse_sidewards]

In the winter you spend half your day waiting for work at a lot of dealers.

Yeah I'm surprised more techs don't get themselves laid off and collect unemployment like construction workers.

 

[DRTDEVL]

There is a legitimate reason for Flat Rate on warranty/TSB/recall problems and pay, you may not like it though.
It comes from the accounting department. When a Mfgr. issues a recall, or authorizes warranty repair, or fixes some bulletin item before a recall comes out, the accounting department wants to be able to budget the potential liability. Therefore they have to come up with a number. You may not like it, it may be BS and be subject to much internal business politics, but that is THE REASON companies do it. It is legitimate too, if done honestly. Let's say you have 5 2016 Silverados come in that have prematurely failing tie rod ends? 1 takes 1 hour to complete, 3 take 1.5, and the last takes 3 for some reason. Do they set the flat rate at 1, 1.5, or 3? Should you bill out your time for each one differently? How does the accounting department plan for what to put in the warranty disbursement account?

You are tying two unrelated problems together. What can be paid out for flat rate by the Mfgr. is independent of what a dealer can pay a tech.

But there is no valid reason in your example for the accounting department to say pay 0.5 hours for the job under warranty and 1.5 when the customer is paying..

 

[IowaOffRoad]

But there is no valid reason in your example for the accounting department to say pay 0.5 hours for the job under warranty and 1.5 when the customer is paying..

You are correct. The only defense in this that I’ve heard is when a warranty/recall job is common that the techs get more efficient at the job where a typical repair for that item is infrequent leading to inefficiency.
I’m not saying I agree with this reasoning but I have heard it quoted.

 

[bgaidan]

But there is no valid reason in your example for the accounting department to say pay 0.5 hours for the job under warranty and 1.5 when the customer is paying..

If there is no incentive to work efficiently and faster and every minute is billable, oil filter spinners like Jimmylube will always work slower.

 

[DMG]

Yeah I'm surprised more techs don't get themselves laid off and collect unemployment like construction workers.

We tried. It costs the dealer essentially nothing for techs to sit around but unemployment insurance rates go up if we are laid off and collect. Plus they may find a better job when they are off.

 

[DMG]

If there is no incentive to work efficiently and faster and every minute is billable, oil filter spinners like Jimmylube will always work slower.

The same logic app,ies to your job.

 

[DMG]

In these threads it becomes apparent who has worked flat rate and who has not.

 

[bgaidan]

The same logic app,ies to your job.

Really? What's my job?

 

[DMG]

Really? What's my job?

Doesnt matter. A financial incentive will make you more efficient. But go ahead and tell us what your job is.

 

[Blacksheep10]

Doesnt matter. A financial incentive will make you more efficient. But go ahead and tell us what your job is.

Perhaps, but flag hour or task completion reward systems incentivize or motivate differently than a salary job where you put in time and run a job or push paper. Slow and fast pay the same per hour when filling out TPS reports provided you get the minimum amount done.
When I had my offroad shop connected to a mechanic shop, the guy that busted ass and hustled made about double his flag rate per hour. The slow guy made barely over his flag rate.

 

[DMG]

Perhaps, but flag hour or task completion reward systems incentivize or motivate differently than a salary job where you put in time and run a job or push paper. Slow and fast pay the same per hour when filling out TPS reports provided you get the minimum amount done.
When I had my offroad shop connected to a mechanic shop, the guy that busted ass and hustled made about double his flag rate per hour. The slow guy made barely over his flag rate.

The people pushing paper/middle management/etc are also known for doing about 3 hours of work in an 8 hour day.

That guy that made 2x would have barely made 40 if it was warranty work


The worst thing was when someone would come in and say their TPMS light was on. The SA hands you a RO, you bring it in, check codes, check pressures. The tires are low. You add air park it outside and have spent .5 hours on it. Then the SA tells you they cant pay .5 hours for puttng air in the tires. It was every fucking day. But they wanted it checked out.

This is just one example.

 

[Blacksheep10]

I guess I was noting that often a financial incentive that is a long run type isn't a motivator like a carrot every 1-12 hours of project. That sense of completion, beating a time that is laid out, etc feels great, you just literally increased your hourly rate in a short time. Most larger companies that give incentives to management set a goal, and if everybody works together you get a bonus. Like a group project in school, you're counting on people pulling weight. I'd liken the flag rate guys to sales jobs that give a commission or percentage of profit to the sales guys, it is directly related to your performance on a piece by piece basis.

 

[rockota]

Doesnt matter. A financial incentive will make you more efficient. But go ahead and tell us what your job is.

maybe... but what about the techs who brag about making bank on flat rate jobs? Those threads have been around here and old place for many years....

is that not an incentive?

 

[jimmy123456789]

I thought that jimmy numbers was banned for some reason

Only in your dreams

Doesnt matter. A financial incentive will make you more efficient. But go ahead and tell us what your job is.

Don’t expect a real answer from this asshole, he’s never once given an actual response in any of my threads. He’s the dipshit that comes in throwing what he thinks are insults and think that makes him king shit without actually having to address what’s being talked about. He’s already won in his mind and doesn’t need to explain WHY he disagrees. You’re just wrong and he’s going to talk shit.

I doubt he has the mental capability to formulate a sentence beyond the 3rd grade level.

 

[jimmy123456789]

The people pushing paper/middle management/etc are also known for doing about 3 hours of work in an 8 hour day.

That guy that made 2x would have barely made 40 if it was warranty work


The worst thing was when someone would come in and say their TPMS light was on. The SA hands you a RO, you bring it in, check codes, check pressures. The tires are low. You add air park it outside and have spent .5 hours on it. Then the SA tells you they cant pay .5 hours for puttng air in the tires. It was every fucking day. But they wanted it checked out.

This is just one example.

We’re techs are time isn’t worth shit in most people’s eyes because we’re all knuckle dragging thieves out to rip them off. And all we do is plug a computer in and it tells us exactly what to do. Blah blah blah. It’s total bullshit, but the general perception is very skewed against us.

 

[bgaidan]

I doubt he has the mental capability to formulate a sentence beyond the 3rd grade level.

We’re techs are time isn’t worth shit in most people’s eyes because we’re all knuckle dragging thieves out to rip them off.

The jokes just fuckin' write themselves

 

[87manche]

We’re techs are time isn’t worth shit in most people’s eyes because we’re all knuckle dragging thieves out to rip them off. And all we do is plug a computer in and it tells us exactly what to do. Blah blah blah. It’s total bullshit, but the general perception is very skewed against us.

considered that your industry as a whole has earned that reputation?

maybe you're not shitty, but there's plenty of shitty ones out there that will fuck up your car and not say a damned word about it. I've discovered fucked up things after every time I've taken a car to a dealer. Rounded off bolts, broken plastic holders, broken wire connectors. Hell, the last time they didn't install the drive belt properly, was a whole rib off and rubbing on the alternator. Literally smelled like burnt rubber when the porter brought me my shit to take home. nobody said a word or thought that was strange. Then I had to fight with the dealer to give me a new belt.

now is this a result of flat rate warranty work? maybe. Rushing to get in as many as possible in the day.
but don't act like the entire dealer/automotive industry isn't full up with people that will do shitty ass work and then just send it out the door.

 

[arse_sidewards]

Don’t expect a real answer from this asshole, he’s never once given an actual response in any of my threads. He’s the dipshit that comes in throwing what he thinks are insults and think that makes him king shit without actually having to address what’s being talked about. He’s already won in his mind and doesn’t need to explain WHY he disagrees. You’re just wrong and he’s going to talk shit.

I doubt he has the mental capability to formulate a sentence beyond the 3rd grade level.

Glass houses.

 

[jimmy123456789]

The jokes just fuckin' write themselves

Just proved my point dipshit, you’ve never given me a legitimate response and think that a cocky insult is equal to a valid response. The only one that looks like a retard is you. You have nothing to offer and only come to stir shit, if I was soooo wrong you could refute me with your eyes closed, but you don’t have the IQ to actually do that.

Try harder next time, bitch boy

 

[jimmy123456789]

considered that your industry as a whole has earned that reputation?

maybe you're not shitty, but there's plenty of shitty ones out there that will fuck up your car and not say a damned word about it. I've discovered fucked up things after every time I've taken a car to a dealer. Rounded off bolts, broken plastic holders, broken wire connectors. Hell, the last time they didn't install the drive belt properly, was a whole rib off and rubbing on the alternator. Literally smelled like burnt rubber when the porter brought me my shit to take home. nobody said a word or thought that was strange. Then I had to fight with the dealer to give me a new belt.

now is this a result of flat rate warranty work? maybe. Rushing to get in as many as possible in the day.
but don't act like the entire dealer/automotive industry isn't full up with people that will do shitty ass work and then just send it out the door.

Very true indeed. I’ve had to fix other shops/techs fuck ups many times in my career. Also made my fair share, the difference is whether you own it and make it right or kick it out the door and hope it doesn’t come back. Most techs are shitty so they do the later.

 

[arse_sidewards]

Just proved my point dipshit, you’ve never given me a legitimate response and think that a cocky insult is equal to a valid response. The only one that looks like a retard is you. You have nothing to offer and only come to stir shit, if I was soooo wrong you could refute me with your eyes closed, but you don’t have the IQ to actually do that.

Try harder next time, bitch boy

He's contributed plenty of quality tech and discussion to this community. You have only come here to troll. You don't get to complain when people put low effort into engaging with you because you have put low effort into engaging with us.

 

[87manche]

Very true indeed. I’ve had to fix other shops/techs fuck ups many times in my career. Also made my fair share, the difference is whether you own it and make it right or kick it out the door and hope it doesn’t come back. Most techs are shitty so they do the later.

well I'm not a professional mechanic, but I actually give a shit about my junk so I'd venture a guess that I do better work than 90% of the trained dealer knuckle draggin thieves.

it's not like the public just woke up one day and said "you know what, fuck those guys"

the industry earned that reputation over decades.

 

[arse_sidewards]

the industry earned that reputation over decades.

Thanks in no small part to people like OP selling work that doesn't strictly need to be done because they think they know better than the customer.

 

[87manche]

Thanks in no small part to people like OP selling work that doesn't strictly need to be done because they think they know better than the customer.

always loved it when the investigative reporting team would go do dealer shit.

i team investigates.

 

[IowaOffRoad]

considered that your industry as a whole has earned that reputation?

maybe you're not shitty, but there's plenty of shitty ones out there that will fuck up your car and not say a damned word about it. I've discovered fucked up things after every time I've taken a car to a dealer. Rounded off bolts, broken plastic holders, broken wire connectors. Hell, the last time they didn't install the drive belt properly, was a whole rib off and rubbing on the alternator. Literally smelled like burnt rubber when the porter brought me my shit to take home. nobody said a word or thought that was strange. Then I had to fight with the dealer to give me a new belt.

now is this a result of flat rate warranty work? maybe. Rushing to get in as many as possible in the day.
but don't act like the entire dealer/automotive industry isn't full up with people that will do shitty ass work and then just send it out the door.

This is basically true of any industry, the Pareto principle being what it is. Auto/Truck repair is a lightning rod though, as personal vehicles and commercial vehicles are simultaneously very important to their owners while being poorly understood by those same owners. Married to that is newer vehicles/trucks are simultaneously better and worse than their predecessors so those on the low end of the 'Tech' scale is all that is needed for 75% of repairs/jobs and both the customer and the owner of the business overestimates how important and difficult that last 25% of work is. The customer is usually somewhat cheap, and they are usually blind-sided by a costly repair. The business owner is trying to both please the customer and make money, so many of them undervalue skill and experience.
The same is true in the trucking industry, manufacturing, and construction (I 'have seen this first-hand) as well as others, but more of the public has experience with auto/truck repair first hand, spending their own money, and dealing with the consequences than those other industries listed.

If we only treated the medical industry with the 'respect' that we do the repair industry we could have avoided many of the problems of the last 3 years

well I'm not a professional mechanic, but I actually give a shit about my junk so I'd venture a guess that I do better work than 90% of the trained dealer knuckle draggin thieves.

it's not like the public just woke up one day and said "you know what, fuck those guys"

the industry earned that reputation over decades.

If you care and have the knowledge to do the work I have no doubt that you are better than most mechanics out there... on your own stuff that you are intimately familiar with.

Thanks in no small part to people like OP selling work that doesn't strictly need to be done because they think they know better than the customer.

Not defending OP, but I will defend the fact that sometimes the mechanic DOES know better than the customer. The problem is you are taking a group who chose to specialize in 'things vs people' and trying to communicate with people who, most likely, specialize in 'people vs things'. The skills are different. Hell, the damn service writers are typically either good with people or good at understanding the problems, but not typically both.
Sometimes the customer thinks that the shop is gouging them for pointing out a pinion/axle seal leak, bitches about the cost to refill that gearbox, then complains when the axle burns up. Sometimes the customer gets their dollar general antifreeze tester out, then refuses to EVER change the coolant, then wonders why there are head sealing, intake sealing, or electrolysis issues at 120K and blames the mechanic for not 'taking good care of them'.
YOU probably do know better than many of the mechanics you've run into. How many of those who complain do?

This is not meant to defend individuals you've personally run into, or businesses who routinely do things 'the wrong way' that always seem to end up screwing the customer.

 

[87manche]

This is basically true of any industry, the Pareto principle being what it is. Auto/Truck repair is a lightning rod though, as personal vehicles and commercial vehicles are simultaneously very important to their owners while being poorly understood by those same owners. Married to that is newer vehicles/trucks are simultaneously better and worse than their predecessors so those on the low end of the 'Tech' scale is all that is needed for 75% of repairs/jobs and both the customer and the owner of the business overestimates how important and difficult that last 25% of work is. The customer is usually somewhat cheap, and they are usually blind-sided by a costly repair. The business owner is trying to both please the customer and make money, so many of them undervalue skill and experience.
The same is true in the trucking industry, manufacturing, and construction (I 'have seen this first-hand) as well as others, but more of the public has experience with auto/truck repair first hand, spending their own money, and dealing with the consequences than those other industries listed.

If we only treated the medical industry with the 'respect' that we do the repair industry we could have avoided many of the problems of the last 3 years





If you care and have the knowledge to do the work I have no doubt that you are better than most mechanics out there... on your own stuff that you are intimately familiar with.

Not defending OP, but I will defend the fact that sometimes the mechanic DOES know better than the customer. The problem is you are taking a group who chose to specialize in 'things vs people' and trying to communicate with people who, most likely, specialize in 'people vs things'. The skills are different. Hell, the damn service writers are typically either good with people or good at understanding the problems, but not typically both.
Sometimes the customer thinks that the shop is gouging them for pointing out a pinion/axle seal leak, bitches about the cost to refill that gearbox, then complains when the axle burns up. Sometimes the customer gets their dollar general antifreeze tester out, then refuses to EVER change the coolant, then wonders why there are head sealing, intake sealing, or electrolysis issues at 120K and blames the mechanic for not 'taking good care of them'.
YOU probably do know better than many of the mechanics you've run into. How many of those who complain do?

This is not meant to defend individuals you've personally run into, or businesses who routinely do things 'the wrong way' that always seem to end up screwing the customer.

I don't disagree with any of that.

but I've rarely taken any of my shit to another person to be worked on, and EVERY dealership experience I've ever had has been negative.
all the way back to a 1997 toyota camry that was under warranty. They parked it on a hill and when the parking brake was released it rolled away. They fucked up the shifter cable and the trans wouldn't go in park.
That's a pretty big "it'll be fine" to not tell a customer about. Damned near ran over my father in law in the parking lot. Also turned into a big fight. Dealer would accept 0 responsibility. It went into park before it came here and now it doesn't, coincidentally your tech had the whole center console and shifter out to do the warranty repair, but if I hadn't been there 100% they would have passed that shit off as something unrelated and fucked my father in law on the shifter cable job.
They tried to say they didn't know, but I took the SA out to every other car that had been parked in the waiting to be picked up section of the lot and not a single one had the parking brake pulled. So why did this one? Oh, because you put it in fucking park and it rolled down the hill and rather than eat it you just set the parking brake and acted surprised when the customer showed up to pickup their car that was broken.

I'm currently debating if I'd like the BMW dealer to touch my car for the same safety recall they've done three times now, because every time I take it there they fuck something else up. May just say fuck it and let the PCV heater burn it to the ground at this point rather than deal with it.

it's an object that most people don't understand, and that makes it ripe for bullshittery.

 

[bgaidan]

Just proved my point dipshit, you’ve never given me a legitimate response and think that a cocky insult is equal to a valid response. The only one that looks like a retard is you. You have nothing to offer and only come to stir shit, if I was soooo wrong you could refute me with your eyes closed, but you don’t have the IQ to actually do that.

Try harder next time, bitch boy

It's funny because you didn't even catch the irony in what I pointed out.

Enjoy your life of flat rate oil changes and bitching about it on any offroad forum that doesn't give a fucking shit about you or your perceived problems!

 

[DMG]

It's funny because you didn't even catch the irony in what I pointed out.

Enjoy your life of flat rate oil changes and bitching about it on any offroad forum that doesn't give a fucking shit about you or your perceived problems!

Whike Jimmy does get carried away, the flat rate systemis a problem for anyone that might take their vehicle in for service. It rewards dishonesty and sloppy work.

 

[IowaOffRoad]

Whike Jimmy does get carried away, the flat rate systemis a problem for anyone that might take their vehicle in for service. It rewards dishonesty and sloppy work.

There is some merit to having internal benchmarks.

Let's move to another industry and use that as an example. New home construction.
How many here could, start to finish, go from a level pad/basement foundation and construct a 1.5k sq/ft. house (minus plumbing/hvac/electrical)? I bet 75% or better could, and it would be a perfectly acceptable job. Now, how many could do it in 30 days, with a 3 man crew of the same skill level as yourself? Not many, I'd bet. Yet, I've been on the 3 man crew that's done it, with only one of the 3 being an 'old hand' (not I) but the other 2 being someone of a couple years experience.
You are, to a certain extent, paying for speed as well as quality.