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National Debt Update

clodhopper said:
No. It is not.

Crossposting myself from another thread.....

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Despite breaking it up by govt, reserve and such, the US taxpayer is ultimately responsible for all of it. Feel free to convince me otherwise. So almost 3/4 is held by taxpayers.
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And Motorcharge is correct. Most of these countries owe us back but it is sitting on separate ledgers.
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And even of that 30%, most of it is indirectly held through bonds, not actual lent money.

Not to defend shitty monetary policy, but too many people look at the national debt like household debt and think we're going to be bankrupt tomorrow when that's not really the case. As long as as nothing comes along to replace the petrodollar the only problem we really have is battling inflation. And the odds of something actually replacing the petrodollar are slim to none. There's nothing large enough to support a global economy like the USD does and the countries that matter are never going to abandon the petrodollar in favor of currencies attached to countries like China or OPEC countries.
 
Motorcharge said:
And even of that 30%, most of it is indirectly held through bonds, not actual lent money.

Not to defend shitty monetary policy, but too many people look at the national debt like household debt and think we're going to be bankrupt tomorrow when that's not really the case. As long as as nothing comes along to replace the petrodollar the only problem we really have is battling inflation. And the odds of something actually replacing the petrodollar are slim to none. There's nothing large enough to support a global economy like the USD does and the countries that matter are never going to abandon the petrodollar in favor of currencies attached to countries like China or OPEC countries.
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This is exactly why BRICS is a complete joke. I'm amazed at the people who took it seriously. :shaking:
 
Projectjunkie said:
I get who's on the hook, but what entity was it borrowed from? And was that process outlined in the constitution?
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Yes, the US Constitution addresses the national debtin multiple ways:


  • Public Debt Clause
    Section 4 of the 14th Amendment states that the validity of the US public debt cannot be questioned. This includes debts incurred for paying pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion. However, the US and any state cannot assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the US.


  • Bureau of the Fiscal Service
    The Constitution requires that a regular statement and account of the receipts and expenditures of all public money be published from time to time. The Bureau of the Fiscal Service, which operates under the Department of the Treasury, is responsible for accounting for and reporting the national debt.
 
SanDiegoCJ said:
Yes, the US Constitution addresses the national debtin multiple ways:


  • Public Debt Clause
    Section 4 of the 14th Amendment states that the validity of the US public debt cannot be questioned. This includes debts incurred for paying pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion. However, the US and any state cannot assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the US.


  • Bureau of the Fiscal Service
    The Constitution requires that a regular statement and account of the receipts and expenditures of all public money be published from time to time. The Bureau of the Fiscal Service, which operates under the Department of the Treasury, is responsible for accounting for and reporting the national debt.
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So this "money" was borrowed from the treasury?
 
SanDiegoCJ said:
This is exactly why BRICS is a complete joke. I'm amazed at the people who took it seriously. :shaking:
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You're missing the point. The point is that there are pretty serious countries now openly flirting with trying to challenge the dollar as the world's reserve currency. At some point the world is going to grow tired of paying a tax to float our spending problem which is exactly what they're doing as we try to print out way out of our debt problem causing inflation. Inflation can pretty honestly be viewed as a tax. You're not paying it on the form of taxation but you're paying it on the devaluation of what your dollars can buy
 
east_beast said:
You're missing the point. The point is that there are pretty serious countries now openly flirting with trying to challenge the dollar as the world's reserve currency. At some point the world is going to grow tired of paying a tax to float our spending problem which is exactly what they're doing as we try to print out way out of our debt problem causing inflation. Inflation can pretty honestly be viewed as a tax. You're not paying it on the form of taxation but you're paying it on the devaluation of what your dollars can buy
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It's you that missed the point. None of those countries have the ability, even together, to match the U.S. BTW, those countries are all having the same issues we have, and some are a WHOLE LOT WORSE.
 
east_beast said:
You're missing the point. The point is that there are pretty serious countries now openly flirting with trying to challenge the dollar as the world's reserve currency. At some point the world is going to grow tired of paying a tax to float our spending problem which is exactly what they're doing as we try to print out way out of our debt problem causing inflation. Inflation can pretty honestly be viewed as a tax. You're not paying it on the form of taxation but you're paying it on the devaluation of what your dollars can buy
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You're missing the other half of this though. Those countries get NATO out of it as well. Most of the West gets huge military security benefits for pennies on the dollar. They don't have to spend anywhere near what they would otherwise on defense budgets because we heavily subsidize their defense.

Same thing with all the foreign aid we send out. It isn't charity. It comes with big stipulations about land for military bases, use of air space, etc. Our currency isn't so much backed by the full faith and credit of the Federal government as it is the US military.
 
SanDiegoCJ said:
It's you that missed the point. None of those countries have the ability, even together, to match the U.S. BTW, those countries are all having the same issues we have, and some are a WHOLE LOT WORSE.
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That's not what I said. BRICS in and of itself is not a legitimate threat. But the fact that you have pretty serious countries openly willing to flirt with launching a challenge to the dollar points to some serious underlying concerns. Everything always seems obvious in hindsight but a lot of clues get missed in real time leading up to momentous events.
 
east_beast said:
That's not what I said. BRICS in and of itself is not a legitimate threat. But the fact that you have pretty serious countries openly willing to flirt with launching a challenge to the dollar points to some serious underlying concerns. Everything always seems obvious in hindsight but a lot of clues get missed in real time leading up to momentous events.
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What member countries are serious in BRICS? Russia, China, and Brazil are all facing huge economic issues internally and Russia's currency is beyond worthless now. South Africa, Egypt, Ethiopia, and Iran aren't exactly economic powerhouses. India is really the only country in there with a solid economy. Any currency they come up with isn't going to hold a torch to the Euro, let alone the USD.

We start seeing countries like the UK, Japan, France, etc abandon the dollar and I'll start worrying.
 
Motorcharge said:
What member countries are serious in BRICS? Russia, China, and Brazil are all facing huge economic issues internally and Russia's currency is beyond worthless now. South Africa, Egypt, Ethiopia, and Iran aren't exactly economic powerhouses. India is really the only country in there with a solid economy. Any currency they come up with isn't going to hold a torch to the Euro, let alone the USD.

We start seeing countries like the UK, Japan, France, etc abandon the dollar and I'll start worrying.
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China is the #2 GDP in the world. Roughly equal to the entire EU combined. The only thing floating us from being an unmitigated economic disaster is the dollar being the reserve currency. Without that our GDP:debt ratio would make dollars more valuable as fire starter than currency.
 
WaterH said:
I guess I need to buy more gold.
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Reminds me of Y2K, I can't tell you how many customers told me while I was working on their well that they had prepared for the worse and had all kinds of provisions, food, water, water purification, fuel, shelter. I would kindly inform them not to tell me or anyone else about their preparedness.

They would look at me strange and I would kindly remind them, if it turns out to be the worse scenario outcome your putting me in a position of coming to get what I know you have, and if it comes down to my family or yours, I'm picking mine every time.


I know, Cool Story Bra....


.
 
east_beast said:
China is the #2 GDP in the world. Roughly equal to the entire EU combined. The only thing floating us from being an unmitigated economic disaster is the dollar being the reserve currency. Without that our GDP:debt ratio would make dollars more valuable as fire starter than currency.
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Everyone knows China also inflates the absolute shit out of their GDP just to be #2 and it's a large part of why they're hurting economically. They're heading for economic collapse because Xi Jingping's policies abroad have been a disaster on top of the massive public works projects they used to inflate their GDP. That's not even getting into the massive labor shortage they're facing or their energy production crisis.

The world plays along with them being #2 because they provide cheap labor and a place to skirt environmental regs, but the they'll never replace us economically. Even without their economic problems the rest of the world would much rather pay the US a bit than be under the thumb of the Chinese.
 
Motorcharge said:
Everyone knows China also inflates the absolute shit out of their GDP just to be #2 and it's a large part of why they're hurting economically. They're heading for economic collapse because Xi Jingping's policies abroad have been a disaster on top of the massive public works projects they used to inflate their GDP. That's not even getting into the massive labor shortage they're facing or their energy production crisis.

The world plays along with them being #2 because they provide cheap labor and a place to skirt environmental regs, but the they'll never replace us economically. Even without their economic problems the rest of the world would much rather pay the US a bit than be under the thumb of the Chinese.
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You think the US doesn’t do the same thing re: inflating GDP? We include debt spending!
 
rockota said:
You think the US doesn’t do the same thing re: inflating GDP? We include debt spending!
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Of course we do, but not nearly to the extent the Chinese do it. The Chinese have spent trillions building fake cities, super highways, and other massive public works projects to keep their GDP inflated. Some of those fake cities are exact copies of European cities that cost nearly a trillion alone and they just sit empty and uninhabitable.

Even the functional projects like dams they include are failing decades before they were supposed to and are continuing to cost them all kinds of money they don't have because the corruption in China is so much worse than here.
 
Motorcharge said:
Of course we do, but not nearly to the extent the Chinese do it. The Chinese have spent trillions building fake cities, super highways, and other massive public works projects to keep their GDP inflated. Some of those fake cities are exact copies of European cities that cost nearly a trillion alone and they just sit empty and uninhabitable.

Even the functional projects like dams they include are failing decades before they were supposed to and are continuing to cost them all kinds of money they don't have because the corruption in China is so much worse than here.
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Take any possible disdain for China out of the equation... Mathematically speaking, I'd be willing to bet the US does this just as much - or more - than China...
 
rockota said:
Take any possible disdain for China out of the equation... Mathematically speaking, I'd be willing to bet the US does this just as much - or more - than China...
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We don't. It's not hard to look at our GDP and see which sectors have the biggest impact on it. Nearly 90% of it is private sector.

There's certainly a case to be made for certain sectors being inflated, like real estate, but that's pretty much a global occurrence in any of the top GDP countries. You also have to take into account how much of the Chinese economy relies on the West.
 
WaterH said:
History says otherwise. You know what they say about ignoring history?
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golds value is only in the random value society assigns to it, right now its value is in chips manufacturing. investing in it in the market is relying on the market your are betting against to stay together.

if you are stock piling actual gold, well thats just dumb.
 
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Motorcharge said:
What member countries are serious in BRICS? Russia, China, and Brazil are all facing huge economic issues internally and Russia's currency is beyond worthless now. South Africa, Egypt, Ethiopia, and Iran aren't exactly economic powerhouses. India is really the only country in there with a solid economy. Any currency they come up with isn't going to hold a torch to the Euro, let alone the USD.

We start seeing countries like the UK, Japan, France, etc abandon the dollar and I'll start worrying.
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Exactly.
 
Motorcharge said:
Everyone knows China also inflates the absolute shit out of their GDP just to be #2 and it's a large part of why they're hurting economically. They're heading for economic collapse because Xi Jingping's policies abroad have been a disaster on top of the massive public works projects they used to inflate their GDP. That's not even getting into the massive labor shortage they're facing or their energy production crisis.

The world plays along with them being #2 because they provide cheap labor and a place to skirt environmental regs, but the they'll never replace us economically. Even without their economic problems the rest of the world would much rather pay the US a bit than be under the thumb of the Chinese.
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Add to that many countries are now cheaper, labor wise than China. Chins is on the verge of an economic collapse that will make what happened in Japan in the 1990's look like an economic miracle.
 
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