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Military pay vs Private salary

clodhopper

clodhopper

Get off my lawn, punk!
Joined
May 20, 2020
Member Number
564
Messages
816
Loc
Out on the plains, Colorado
I am not savvy on current military pay structures. Trying to understand how this all works to make an offer to a young guy.

Young guy has BS in engineering . He is through boot and involved with other training (yeah I dunno how all that works or what is required) with the end goal of Reserves. Currently a 2ndLT. My offer and his expectation are far apart, not unusual these days with the bullshit ideas young people are filled with. In exploring the reasoning for what he is asking, cause no real experience on his resume other than the army training stuff that doesnt transfer, he says "my current military pay for a 2LT is 45,914 base pay + 39,108 (untaxed) for Allowance for Housing/ Sustenance".

After all the years of being told military pay is shit, this caught me off guard. A no-nothing 2LT is earning 85k a year? Is this realistic or is the housing/sustenance temporary or something? How does this convert to equivalent private industry income structures?
 
clodhopper said:
I am not savvy on current military pay structures. Trying to understand how this all works to make an offer to a young guy.

Young guy has BS in engineering . He is through boot and involved with other training (yeah I dunno how all that works or what is required) with the end goal of Reserves. Currently a 2ndLT. My offer and his expectation are far apart, not unusual these days with the bullshit ideas young people are filled with. In exploring the reasoning for what he is asking, cause no real experience on his resume other than the army training stuff that doesnt transfer, he says "my current military pay for a 2LT is 45,914 base pay + 39,108 (untaxed) for Allowance for Housing/ Sustenance".

After all the years of being told military pay is shit, this caught me off guard. A no-nothing 2LT is earning 85k a year? Is this realistic or is the housing/sustenance temporary or something? How does this convert to equivalent private industry income structures?
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The days of the military being underpaid are long gone, but the bleeding heart story continues. This guy is an officer, and lowly officers make more than a lot of senior enlisted.

The closest mathematical formula you could do is to add 25% to the tax-free allowances, so his equivalent salary is $94,799 + fully-paid benefits.

I wouldn't entertain any low-level officer in any of the branches, as their expectations will be out of line with reality, and they are given delusions of grandeur while in training. This is especially true if they are placed in any kind of management role, as they have zero ability to manage man hours on a project.

Edit to add:

Tell him if he feels he is worth that salary, to continue on with that position as a real active duty soldier and not just a weekend warrior.
 
DRTDEVL said:
I wouldn't entertain any low-level officer in any of the branches, as their expectations will be out of line with reality, and they are given delusions of grandeur while in training. This is especially true if they are placed in any kind of management role, as they have zero ability to manage man hours on a project.

Edit to add:

Tell him if he feels he is worth that salary, to continue on with that position as a real active duty soldier and not just a weekend warrior.
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That is where I was expecting to land on this. Just lookin for verification. :beer::beer:
 
DRTDEVL said:
I wouldn't entertain any low-level officer in any of the branches, as their expectations will be out of line with reality, and they are given delusions of grandeur while in training. This is especially true if they are placed in any kind of management role, as they have zero ability to manage man hours on a project.
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Truth. These guys and gals don't even know where the pointy end of the ship is yet. They couldn't lead their way out of wet paper bag.

There's a reason why you have all sorts of jokes about 2nd LT's and navigation courses.
 
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The dude is an officer. They are on a whole different pay structure than enlisted guys. E1 Private snowball still makes jack shit.
 
KarlVP said:
The reason "we don't get paid shit" is because all of the allowances we get that are non taxable.
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I can take my starting pay from 30 years ago, inflation adjust it, and it is about right for today. So apart from govt fukery with the dollar's value, appears fairly consistent. I started with a MS and my start salary (inflation adjusted) is still pretty far below his current earning. If I include DRTDEVIL's guidance of adding tax value to the housing, he is getting killer pay to just show up for training.

If that is representative of current pay levels (yeah, officer level, sorry NCOs...) then there should be no problem recuiting officers, even quality ones. Pretty good highlight of the structural problems in our military systems.
 
We get the Navy Pukes since one of our home offices and factory is in San Diego.

It’s a shit show with most of these guys and they struggle to keep up with a corporate credit card.
$32 dollar Taco Bell charge and they wonder why the boss kicks that expense back.

$52 dollar charge at a nice steak house is no problem but $32 dollars at Taco Bell means your buying for friends and family.

If they can’t math any better than that how they going to do performance on a 30,000 HP gas turbine.

They start out at around 75K but can double that easily in the first two years if they want to produce.
 
As a point of reference I'm an engineering manager for a defense contractor...a big one. We are in an area with a low cost of living. I'd hire him between 65 and 70 depending on relevant experience.
 
Pt_Ranger_v8 said:
What were you expecting to pay him?

What would you pay someone with a BS and no experience?
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Cannot offer that over public airwaves..... $95k + benefits for fresh outta school is nutz. Even PHD grads dont warrant that pay level. No wonder the military struggles to get departing vets placed in society.

We do crank the box engineering, not real high end stuff. And it is primarily geotech, considered bottom of the barrel according to those high falooting structurals assholes. I know I am trying to hire a bit on the lower end, but it has to fit the market, ie what I can convince clients to pay relative to the effort that goes into it. This I know down to the penny, fear not. But colleges constantly pump new graduates with salary expectations they might get in SanFrancisco if they know the right guy at the firm. That isnt going to happen outside of the major urban centers on the coasts, maybe. There is considerable flex going on in my industry just like many others.... shortage of capable staff is throwing pay scales outta whack with incoming getting more than they probably should just to fill slots. That and housing costs, inflation, etc are all fukerd which makes it super hard on younger ones. Our culture has prepared most of them to expect a new car and an apartment to themselves upon graduation, easy times. Those of us who came before had shitboxes and roommates until we got established, and I am not a 'back in my day" kinda guy. Well, may just a bit.

The economic crap will figure itself out eventually, or... the govt will continue to make it worse. Guess we will see.
 
Rooney77 said:
As a point of reference I'm an engineering manager for a defense contractor...a big one. We are in an area with a low cost of living. I'd hire him between 65 and 70 depending on relevant experience.
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I am in that ballpark. Sounds about right to me. Experience can swing an incoming engineer a not inconsiderable amount. Problem is, alot of what is learned in the military doesnt transfer and is useless to me. Great you are a king sapper and know lots about explosives and bridges. I dont do any of that, sorry. Go see Panzer.
 
I personally think how the military trys to sell you that getting food and housing while essentially living on the road is nuts. You work away from home you get that stuff paid for, otherwise who the fuck is going to Minot ND for $45k/year?

As far as compensation you seem pretty low. How close to Pueblo are you and what do you know about pozzalonic materials? I'm pretty sure we would be about $20k/yr better than your current gig if you can fake being a geologist.
 
KarlVP said:
Truth. These guys and gals don't even know where to pointy end of the ship is yet. They couldn't lead their way out of wet paper bag.

There's a reason why you have all sorts of jokes about 2nd LT's and navigation courses.
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Wait I thought Navy was like 4 steps above everyone else for officers? It is that just a Navy captain?
 
If he is going reserves, he is only making that now while he is full time in training. Once he is out there are specific rates per weekend/2 weeks a year. Google should sort those rates out. Also, as others have said, a 2lt is an idea fairy. Lots of ideas that have no benefit in reality. If he is banking on .mil service as a 2lt and not his degree he probably doesn't know shit, couldn't get hired anywhere, and thought the military was his meal ticket.

Haven't delt with many 2lt's, but the army obviously found them useless to the Intel branch before they were a captain and needed to learn leadership.

Eta: he will also probably get orders at inconvenient times and leave at a moments notice and there isn't shit you can do.
 
clodhopper said:
"my current military pay for a 2LT is 45,914 base pay + 39,108 (untaxed) for Allowance for Housing/ Sustenance"
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Outside of the .mil he won't get that pay with his limited experience. A 2LT in the training pipeline hasn't even lead the way out of a wet paper bag yet.


Google says BAS is $316 a month for O's, and BAH is dependent on zip code and dependents. So he's training in a high cost of living area ($2943/month). Looking up Fort Collins zip code (somewhere on the Colorado plains) gives $1740. So he's dropping $14 grand a year just moving back to Colorado.

Plus, he intends to be a reservist, so he won't be getting the full active duty pay anyways. He could attempt to go active, but he obviously ain't about that life.


Make a solid offer that's realistic and there's a good chance he'll swing back and take it when he realizes it's his market value. If not, you saved yourself from an employee that has a second job with a ton of hours committed to it. Officers in a reserve unit aren't just there on drill days, but they're only paid for drill days.
 
RusM said:
Wait I thought Navy was like 4 steps above everyone else for officers? It is that just a Navy captain?
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A second tour Department Head (usually with 7 to 10 years in). Has the rank of LT (O-3) and has served on at least 2 ships. Those are the competent officers.

Sure we get some Ensigns that are stellar, but 95% of them are fresh out of college learning what it's like to be in the real world. Not only are they learning how to do their job and what it entails, but they are the same age as most of the enlisted folks and they struggle leading their "peers" (same age group). Most of their "peers" (same age group) in the enlisted community joined the Navy at 18 instead of going to college, have been around the block, served on one or two ships, usually have a couple deployments under their belt and aren't really going to take shit from a baby Ensign.
 
clodhopper said:
I am in that ballpark. Sounds about right to me. Experience can swing an incoming engineer a not inconsiderable amount. Problem is, alot of what is learned in the military doesnt transfer and is useless to me. Great you are a king sapper and know lots about explosives and bridges. I dont do any of that, sorry. Go see Panzer.
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You're in the right ballpark, maybe a hair low depending. You can likely do an easy enough comparison looking around at entry level engineering jobs around the state as well.

I'm up in Fort Collins, I work as a Senior Engineer for a Pharmaceutical Company. I've got ~13 years under my belt, been a consultant (wide breadth of experience), worked in the public sector, and have a Masters (Engineering Management). Our Level 3's (one below me) make right at the six figure mark. Our Engineer Level 2's would be around where he's at, but our field (pharma) also tends to pay higher, and a Level 2 is going to have at least a few years of experience.

As you mentioned, unless he has direct related/relevant experience, he's on the same playing field as a fresh graduate. I might give him a little bit of a legs up with serving, but it's also a double edged sword (some thinking they're way better/more talented than they are).

Is he in CO already (e.g. Ft. Carson) or coming from somewhere else?
 
RusM said:
Wait I thought Navy was like 4 steps above everyone else for officers? It is that just a Navy captain?
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To expand on KarlVP's explanation from my jarhead perspective:

The rank names are different in the Navy; Lieutenant & Captain are what confuse people as they're present in all services but are vastly different levels of experience depending on branch.

Army/AF/USMC LT = O-1 (2LT) or O-2 (1LT)
Navy LT = O-3

Army/AF/USMC Captain = O-3
Navy Captain = O-6

(Note: Officer ranks are O-1 to O-9)
 
KarlVP said:
A second tour Department Head (usually with 7 to 10 years in). Has the rank of LT (O-3) and has served on at least 2 ships. Those are the competent officers.
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You think that highly of your DH's? I've met more than a fewer that I wouldn't call competent. :flipoff2:

RusM said:
Wait I thought Navy was like 4 steps above everyone else for officers? It is that just a Navy captain?
Click to expand...

IIRC Karl is on a DDG, so the officers he's working with are predominantly SWO's (surface warfare officers), which is generally speaking the least trained and least competent ground of officers in the Navy. They are also coming to the ship pretty much directly from basic training.

On subs JO's go through the nuclear training pipeline first, then sub school (which you can actually fail out, unlike SWO intro) so they have a bit more knowledge in addition to not being the bottom of the bucket. Likewise for pilots - lots of training before you get to your first unit.
 
To the OP's post, those numbers seem right, though it would have to be the highest BAH and with dependents. Without that allowance is about $10k lower, and likewise cheaper areas of the state are $5-10k lower as well. So that's $80-90k/yr based on the assumption he's living in the most expensive area of the state.

Keep in mind too that there's likely a fair bit of work/stress involved civilian jobs don't have. I can only comment on Navy, but on ships and subs a JO shipboard isn't just working a 40 hr week, but like 40-50 hrs during the normal work week, plus duty on the order of once every 3-4 days, and that's in port. Underway is pretty much 16 hrs days 6 days a week and watch on sunday. I once did the math and came up with effectively minimum wage if you look at the number of hours worked. Admittedly shore duty is much closer to a regular job (and can be even less hours), but it balances out.

No idea WTF other services do though - AF JO may very well be working 20 hrs a week for that - can't say.

Then add in the whole potential dying thing, all the BS military makes you put up with and the fact that you go work when where and how they say.

Pay has gone up quite a bit since the cold war days. Probably a good thing, though there's balance there. Arguably junior enlisted pay is still low, but even there, an E-3 @ 2yrs is making ~70k/yr (assuming Denver BAH again).


The more interesting to me in this situation is that AFAIK, the minimum service commitment is 4 yrs, and if he's a 2nd LT, he's somewhere under 2, and likely under 18 months. I don't think he's going to work for you anytime soon regardless of pay.....


Baldy said:
Geez, I was a Navy Diver in the 80's at E-5 pay I made a whopping $12,000 a year, times have changed!
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E-5 @10 yrs in Denver BAH come up to $86.5K. Not sure what dive pay is these days, but obviously adds to it. On the other hand, $12k in 1985 is $35k now.
 
Dive pay was a whopping $50.00 a month so add that to my $12,000 and get a whopping $12,600 a year that was also taxed. Every year I had to get a loan of about $350 to pay taxes.
 
Baldy said:
Dive pay was a whopping $50.00 a month so add that to my $12,000 and get a whopping $12,600 a year that was also taxed. Every year I had to get a loan of about $350 to pay taxes.
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Jesus, in 2012 we were paying divers $100hr and a 8hr minimum when they hit the water.
 
Baldy said:
Dive pay was a whopping $50.00 a month so add that to my $12,000 and get a whopping $12,600 a year that was also taxed. Every year I had to get a loan of about $350 to pay taxes.
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Same shit still applies. I'm in a job nobody wants in the Navy (3MC) and the "incentive" pay is $75/month.

Some times when I'm in the drive through I tell myself "fuck it" and I yell "go large" at the speaker because I'm so flush with extra cash.
 
Hard pass . Kid is lying about his current pay for housing/sustenance to start with ( misleading let’s say) and is only a 2nd lieutenant because he used the GI bill to get his degree which automatically makes him an officer . He’s a kid fresh out of college with no experience offer him accordingly . But seriously I would pass because of the lying . Unless he has a bunch of kids and the COL is extremely high there he’s lying about what he “makes “ temporarily at that , nope.
 
Navy civilian engineering manager here. We hire fresh college grads at 71k/year, then after 6 months promote to 74k/year. 1 year after that (18 mo total) promotion to 82k, then 1 year after that (2.5 years total) promotion to 97k/ year. the big promotions stop there until you get to management type jobs which you have to compete for.

Masters degreed folks start at the 6 month spot.

We lose engineers all the time to Boeing / amazon / space x / Blue Origin. The last one I know that left had 12 years with us, and started over at Blue at 150k base salary, plus bonuses.
 
DRTDEVL said:
The days of the military being underpaid are long gone, but the bleeding heart story continues. This guy is an officer, and lowly officers make more than a lot of senior enlisted.

The closest mathematical formula you could do is to add 25% to the tax-free allowances, so his equivalent salary is $94,799 + fully-paid benefits.

I wouldn't entertain any low-level officer in any of the branches, as their expectations will be out of line with reality, and they are given delusions of grandeur while in training. This is especially true if they are placed in any kind of management role, as they have zero ability to manage man hours on a project.

Edit to add:

Tell him if he feels he is worth that salary, to continue on with that position as a real active duty soldier and not just a weekend warrior.
Click to expand...
Plus…
Hate to say it, and i think it’s illegal to consider… but scheduling around weekend duty and x time in the summer always ends up being a pain in the ass.
 

IMG_0534.jpeg


Used my zip
IMG_0535.jpeg
 
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Rooney77 said:
As a point of reference I'm an engineering manager for a defense contractor...a big one. We are in an area with a low cost of living. I'd hire him between 65 and 70 depending on relevant experience.
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And I'm in a high cost of living area and it wouldn't be out of line for us to start a fresh out of school software developer at 95-105k depending on how their resume looks.
 
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