Is the future a kit car or truck?

[Ghetto Fab.]

Stupid idea may be stupid, but hear me out.

We've all seen the prices for new cars and trucks. I deal a lot with the jeep scene and while the new V8 wranglers are neat, the $80k+ price tags are just too much. I don't understand how someone can buy one of those then sink another $60k into one. I guess I fucked up in life and should have gotten a better education or job. Jeeps are toys though. Prices of all new vehicles is getting insane. Largely due to all the regulations, emissions, and nanny state BS. Here on this forum how many times have you heard of people wanting a stripped down poverty truck to keep things simple?

Then you've got the complexity of actually working on anything new. Right to repair issues etc.....

Obviously we all look at older vehicles and fixing them up, swapping motors, suspension, axles, etc... I live in california and motor swaps are a pain in the ass unless you go pre 76, which doesn't have a lot of good offroad family choices, on top of the fact that most of those vehicles are now collectible and $$$.

Could a kit car or truck solve some of these issues? Something where you buy, or build a body/chassis, then drop whatever drivetrain you want/find/can afford into it. It could be as complex or a simple as your willing to deal with. Want a 4 door suv with a modern V8 and 8spd trans, cruise control, ac , heated seats, or maybe a bare bones 4cyl 2dr pickup, then you just have to put it together. Much like building a buggy, designing a vehicle from the ground up to fit a specific niche has its advantages on performance.

As of yet, I'm not aware of any specific laws that prohibit a kit car from being on the road. We don't have vehicle inspections in california, but we do have smog inspections. Oddly enough the kit car thing could help with that. You can get a specialty construction vehicle registration and essentially bypass smog.

I don't see this idea becoming mainstream, people will still want there new cars, and the auto manufacturers aren't going anywhere. I guess I wonder if kit cars will change from being a toy for hobbyists to something more utilitarian filling a void created by government and ignored by manufacturers.

I can expand on my thoughts more, but I'll leave this wall of text for now.

 

[Jeffh555]

I think this is the future for hardcore auto enthusiasts. New cars are really good, so some mild bolt-ons will be sufficient for the vast majority of enthusiast. If you want to build a wild rock crawler, hot rod, prerunner, drift car, time attack car, etc, and it isn't based on a vintage platform for nostalgia sake, then it makes sense for it to be a kit car.

For California, look up SB100, it allows for 500 specially constructed vehicles (SPCNS) per year. My understanding is that when the law first passed, there was a backlog of sketchy vehicles (registered out of state, vin swapped, etc) that people rushed to get plated legit under this law, and you had to be at the DMV on Jan 1. From what I hear, there just aren't 500 new kit cars built in CA, and it's not too bad of a process.

As far as becoming utilitarian, I think the public as a whole wants to just buy/lease something, use it, and not think about it. Most people don't have the skills/desire to build a kit car. I think the enthusiasts that could/would build a utilitarian kit car, would rather build something more fun, and pay GM or Ford to build the utilitarian kit car. Every once in while I think about doing something like building a 3/4 ton suburban for my wife, but then I realize a new 1/2 ton suburban will work just fine, and I don't need to turn any wrenches.

 

[jhama78]

It'll likely never happen, but itd be cool if somebody made 4wd truck and SUV floater kits.... just like they do with road tractors/semis..... you bolt in a 14 bolt or 9" rear axle into a 4wd chassis/body with an efi v-8 and go.

 

[Ghetto Fab.]

I think this is the future for hardcore auto enthusiasts. New cars are really good, so some mild bolt-ons will be sufficient for the vast majority of enthusiast. If you want to build a wild rock crawler, hot rod, prerunner, drift car, time attack car, etc, and it isn't based on a vintage platform for nostalgia sake, then it makes sense for it to be a kit car.

For California, look up SB100, it allows for 500 specially constructed vehicles (SPCNS) per year. My understanding is that when the law first passed, there was a backlog of sketchy vehicles (registered out of state, vin swapped, etc) that people rushed to get plated legit under this law, and you had to be at the DMV on Jan 1. From what I hear, there just aren't 500 new kit cars built in CA, and it's not too bad of a process.

As far as becoming utilitarian, I think the public as a whole wants to just buy/lease something, use it, and not think about it. Most people don't have the skills/desire to build a kit car. I think the enthusiasts that could/would build a utilitarian kit car, would rather build something more fun, and pay GM or Ford to build the utilitarian kit car. Every once in while I think about doing something like building a 3/4 ton suburban for my wife, but then I realize a new 1/2 ton suburban will work just fine, and I don't need to turn any wrenches.

I went down this road because I can't find an suv that meets my needs and wants, past or present. Then I looked at the prices of things that don't meet my needs or have my wants. Then I thought maybe there are others like me, maybe not the same needs and wants, but similar feelings. Yes, its always going to be on the fringe.

 

[TrikeKid]

The future is carbed big blocks and 4 speeds.

 

[AgitatedPancake]

I definitely think there's merit to the idea, it's actually something I've been working towards for a decent while now, but I think it will stay a niche market for the forseeable future. I also think it's most likely going to be dominated by somewhat "barebones" builds, because piling extra amenities and creature comforts in ramp the time invested exponentially. Like Factory Five cobras, or in my case flatfender jeep-ish things that subscribe to the KISS mentality. I think your example of an SUV with AC and cruise control is a stretch though, that trends toward becoming a project with such a large scope that only tens of people in the country would be interested in taking them on (and only half of those would finish lol). IMO there just aren't enough people that passionate about scratch building anything with that kind of scope these days.

on the CA custom title stuff, I haven't yet done it myself but I heard similar to Jeff. Those 500 slots used to be all taken right at the beginning of the year, but in more recent years I've heard they're not as difficult to get. Although I have done reading on the subject, and the smog thing is an interesting one. From what I recall, You basically get to choose the "year" of the vehicle either based on the body itself (like a cobra), or the year of the engine, and have to follow any smog laws for that year on record. So if you were to build something with a non-recognizable body and a new engine, you may be forced to comply with the smog laws of the newer engine. Note: This is just my interpretation, please correct me if you've heard otherwise as I'd very much like to be wrong there

If that's the case though, just get it vin verified/signed off with a pre smog engine bolted between the frame rails, then you're free to swap to whatever engine you want "later"

 

[Jeffh555]

I went down this road because I can't find an suv that meets my needs and wants, past or present. Then I looked at the prices of things that don't meet my needs or have my wants. Then I thought maybe there are others like me, maybe not the same needs and wants, but similar feelings. Yes, its always going to be on the fringe.

I was thinking a 6.6L L8T might not be a hard swap into a 15-20 Suburban with a 5.3L L83. I bet no smog tech would even notice. You'd get 400+hp, run on pump 87. You'd also ditch all the problematic AFM in the process. Then I started thinking about 8 lug swaps...

What needs do have for an SUV that couldn't be accomplished with a stock vehicle and minor mods? Is this really just about you not wanting a JK?

 

[Ghetto Fab.]

I definitely think there's merit to the idea, it's actually something I've been working towards for a decent while now, but I think it will stay a niche market for the forseeable future. I also think it's most likely going to be dominated by somewhat "barebones" builds, because piling extra amenities and creature comforts in ramp the time invested exponentially. Like Factory Five cobras, or in my case flatfender jeep-ish things that subscribe to the KISS mentality. I think your example of an SUV with AC and cruise control is a stretch though, that trends toward becoming a project with such a large scope that only tens of people in the country would be interested in taking them on (and only half of those would finish lol). IMO there just aren't enough people that passionate about scratch building anything with that kind of scope these days.

on the CA custom title stuff, I haven't yet done it myself but I heard similar to Jeff. Those 500 slots used to be all taken right at the beginning of the year, but in more recent years I've heard they're not as difficult to get. Although I have done reading on the subject, and the smog thing is an interesting one. From what I recall, You basically get to choose the "year" of the vehicle either based on the body itself (like a cobra), or the year of the engine, and have to follow any smog laws for that year on record. So if you were to build something with a non-recognizable body and a new engine, you may be forced to comply with the smog laws of the newer engine. Note: This is just my interpretation, please correct me if you've heard otherwise as I'd very much like to be wrong there

If that's the case though, just get it vin verified/signed off with a pre smog engine bolted between the frame rails, then you're free to swap to whatever engine you want "later"

Your not wrong. The more basic it is, the cheaper and easier to build.

I've done some research. I had thought there were two different ways to go about dealing with registering kit cars. One way (new construction) had many more slots available, but like you mentioned you had to pick what it was being smogged too and most as I recall were being smogged to the engine. These could look like an already produced vehicle. The other was the specialty construction. I recall there only being 250 slots a year available though. I have also heard that not all the slots get used in a year anymore. These have to not look like any current or past produced vehicles, so you can't swap a big block into a miata and try to get around smog. But, basically once through the process the smog ref just verifies that the engine has a working PCV system and your good to go. I have no first hand knowledge of any of this though.

 

[mobil1syn]

one thing to keep in mind is that the frame/motor is what matters. there are a few guys from prerunner sites who took an older f100 chassis with beams and body swapped a new body on to it. a trip to the chp and away they went. never when down the rabbit hole but something worth looking in to

 

[Ghetto Fab.]

What needs do have for an SUV that couldn't be accomplished with a stock vehicle and minor mods? Is this really just about you not wanting a JK?

Its not that I don't want a JK. I actually like the jeeps and think they are super capable and at least the newer ones and the JLs are comfy. Definately like the 8spd trans in the new jeeps. The problem is that while it solves some issues, it creates others and for the money spent it would need to fix all the issues. I've looked at a lot of other options and they all have the same problems more or less. Manufacturers cater to the general publics needs, not mine, I get it, I'm weird.

I was thinking of my suv idea, then thinking about how unaffordable this whole hobby is getting, then remembering hearing about some farmers that are tired of the complex modern equipment they can't fix and starting to make their own stuff. As things get more expensive, sometimes hobbies die off, or simply get reinvented in a different way. People got fed up with high dollar hot rods and started building rat rods, I feel like people started getting tired of ultra4 stuff and have come back to rockcrawling. I could see a niche group of people tired with having to take their vehicle to the dealer to have it reset constantly and wind up just making a simple car they can fix themselves.

I think the way this idea dies though is through insurance. I'm guessing the insurance costs on homebuilt stuff is high.

 

[Jeffh555]

I could see a niche group of people tired with having to take their vehicle to the dealer to have it reset constantly and wind up just making a simple car they can fix themselves.

I think a larger number of people will figure out how to just reset/reprogram/replace the computer themselves, instead of building a new vehicle.

I was thinking of my suv idea, then thinking about how unaffordable this whole hobby is getting

I think a significant part of why the hobby is getting more expensive is that we collectively don't want to be driving unreliable junk anymore. I started this hobby in 2000 or so, and all the cheap CJs were already gone, I guess Toyotas were cheaper, but they still seemed expensive then. I had an XJ on 35s and stock axles, and ran the Rubicon with my buddies. You aren't finding free XJs anymore, but they're not stupid expensive. You don't need 1 tons, 40s, beadlocks, coilovers and bypasses, or big horsepower any more than you did 20 years ago. People also don't want to cut out brackets with angle grinders like we did 20+ years ago.

I don't think a kit car is going to make the hobby cheaper, at least not for the foreseeable future. There's still plenty of old SUVs to turn into wheelers. New 4Runners and Broncos and Jeeps are more capable than new ones 20 years ago. If everything goes transverse engine, CVT, unibody, IRS, etc, then maybe there won't be donors to build, but there still are, and will be for a while longer.

Manufacturers cater to the general publics needs, not mine, I get it, I'm weird.

I'm the same way, that's why I don't think a kit car is gonna make it cheaper. If none of the manufacturers cater to my weird need, why do I think a kit car manufacturer would be able to at a competitive price?

 

[PAE]

With a mag for ignition and no computer.

The future is carbed big blocks and 4 speeds.

 

[Bebop]

Here on this forum how many times have you heard of people wanting a stripped down poverty truck to keep things simple?

People say it all the time.
Nobody actually buys them. Already been down this road, we've had the discussion in the Ford SuperDuty thread.
Most of what sells is nicely loaded vehicles.

 

[Treefrog]

People say it all the time.
Nobody actually buys them. Already been down this road, we've had the discussion in the Ford SuperDuty thread.
Most of what sells is nicely loaded vehicles.

When a new poverty truck is $30k+ there's nothing poverty about it.

 

[Russellmn]

In 1993 my Dad bought a brand new K1500, nothing crazy, RCLB, 350 5 speed. Power winders and locks. It was $20k.
Can't get the manual trans anymore (I don't think so anyway), but a similarly spec'd out 1500 Silverado for $30k sounds alright to me.

Edit: Just looked at Chev website, RCLB is WT trim only. And 2.7L engine only. Lowest trim with a v8 is the LT in a "double cab" for $54k. That's a little ridiculous.

 

[Jeffh555]

In 1993 my Dad bought a brand new K1500, nothing crazy, RCLB, 350 5 speed. Power winders and locks. It was $20k.
Can't get the manual trans anymore (I don't think so anyway), but a similarly spec'd out 1500 Silverado for $30k sounds alright to me.

Edit: Just looked at Chev website, RCLB is WT trim only. And 2.7L engine only. Lowest trim with a v8 is the LT in a "double cab" for $54k. That's a little ridiculous.

I think part of the issue here is that in my head 1993 was about 7 years ago. Turns out it’s 30 years ago. Inflation is a real thing and we’re just old enough to remember the good old days.

According to the random inflation calculator I found:

What cost $20000 in 1993 would cost $41560.16 in 2022.

So you can’t get a RCLB V8, but pricing doesn’t seem out of left field to me.

The Inflation Calculator

 

[Russellmn]

I took a look at Ford website. RCLB 4x4 with the 5.0 automatic. $44k ish

 

[fl0w3n]

Cool idea but I agree with what others have said, it’s about demand. We’re in an echo chamber, and while it sounds like “everyone” wants the strip down stuff… it’s not what sells.

Also, the Mahindra Roxor seems like the closest thing to what you’re describing. I don’t exactly see them flying off the shelf though.


What is it you want in an SUV?

 

[Chkn]

I don’t think it’s possible. Aqualu will sell you an FJ40 body for $16K. You have to add the chassis and the engine and all the extras. But Aqualu is closing up shop now. So not sure where you can purchase an affordable body kit.

 

[arse_sidewards]

I took a look at Ford website. RCLB 4x4 with the 5.0 automatic. $44k ish

That truck was 16k with the 4.9L in 1994.

 

[Bebop]

Also, the Mahindra Roxor seems like the closest thing to what you’re describing. I don’t exactly see them flying off the shelf though.

If I HAD to buy a new "Jeep", that's what I would get.
But I don't have to so I wont.

I don’t think it’s possible. Aqualu will sell you an FJ40 body for $16K. You have to add the chassis and the engine and all the extras. But Aqualu is closing up shop now. So not sure where you can purchase an affordable body kit.

Repro willys bodies are cheaper than that. But in the end you won't be cheaper than a Roxxor.

 

[fl0w3n]

I’m still just not sure what type of vehicle were talking about here.

Are we talking a dedicated but steetable wheeling rig for two people?

A pickup truck to drive to work and tow things?

A family SUV for going to going to soccer practice but stopping off at the Rubicon along the way?

 

[Ghetto Fab.]

I think you guys are thinking I'm trying to make something to sell. I'm not, just pondering an idea. It solves my issues and I thought it might solve some other peoples issues. Now may be too early for it, but I was looking at things moving forward. I mean, we've all seen the offroad capabilities of most trucks and suvs decline over the years.

The cool thing is that it could be whatever you want it to be. Sky is the limit. You also don't have to limit yourself to what someone has already made.

 

[CarterKraft]

That truck was 16k with the 4.9L in 1994.

I made $7/hr in 1994

 

[Jeffh555]

I think you’re trying to solve a problem that doesn’t exist.

The legal framework for kit cars exists in California, so I would assume it exists in “free” states also.

I guess I don’t understand what the idea is. I re-read your initial post, and here’s what you’re proposing:
A rolling chassis you can buy, either welded or in kit form.
The builder then puts their engine trans and body of choice on it.
Is the body always custom, or would a few off the shelf bodies be available? 2/4 door SUV and 2/4 door pickup.

If you wanted it to be a viable product, in my opinion, make it fit a body from a late 70s/early 80s truck/SUV, people are eating those up lately. Also make multiple length Jeep bodies, and maybe a custom buggy-ish body.

 

[Bebop]

I think you’re trying to solve a problem that doesn’t exist.

The legal framework for kit cars exists in California, so I would assume it exists in “free” states also.

Yes and yes

Art Morrison makes upgraded chassies to put under old school vehicles / trucks.
Icon uses them:

ICON 4x4 Kaiser Project - Art Morrison

Always a pleasure to work the @icon4x4 and this Kaiser project wasn’t any different. Absolutely love it! Riding on a custom AME chassis.

artmorrison.com

ICON 4x4 Suburban Chassis - Art Morrison

The @icon4x4 Suburban chassis is all assembled and ready to ship. The AME Multilink IRS is ready for all the abuse the Nelson Racing Engines twin turbo engine will be able to throw at it.

artmorrison.com

 

[CarterKraft]

Yes and yes

Art Morrison makes upgraded chassies to put under old school vehicles / trucks.
Icon uses them:

ICON 4x4 Kaiser Project - Art Morrison

Always a pleasure to work the @icon4x4 and this Kaiser project wasn’t any different. Absolutely love it! Riding on a custom AME chassis.

artmorrison.com

ICON 4x4 Suburban Chassis - Art Morrison

The @icon4x4 Suburban chassis is all assembled and ready to ship. The AME Multilink IRS is ready for all the abuse the Nelson Racing Engines twin turbo engine will be able to throw at it.

artmorrison.com

Those would require the VIN from the firewall of the vehicle body thought right? Chassis doesn't contain the VIN.
That doesn't get you out of emissions/safety etc. problems.

 

[Bebop]

Unless you use an old body you're still tied up to these, right ?

 

[CarterKraft]

Unless you use an old body you're still tied up to these, right ?

Yeah I believe so. Hes proposing a all new body built under the 500 vehicle limit to skirt regulations. I think...

 

[AgitatedPancake]

Yeahhh I agree with these guys. I think the disconnect here is trying to bundle a sealed vehicle with creature comforts into the kit car category.

There's just no economical way to do anything close to what OEMs do with our standard aftermarket mfg techniques (versus stamping etc). Because starting with some preexisting sheetmetal from just about any brand gives you the head start of already having:

• a windshield frame with off the shelf glass
• hinged doors with full perimeter weather stripping and window regulators (manual or elec) and more easy to find glass
• fitted off the shelf carpet/insulation kits
• air conditioning and heating
• additional insulation (headliner, door cards)
• full integrated stereo.

I wouldn't be surprised if it cost $20k (or more) to get that basic list of features in an aftermarket body, versus what you can find for $1-5k in used factory form.

At that point you could toss in an aftermarket frame like the Art Morisons or delete the floors and firewalls to start with a blank slate, but IMO that's no longer a kit car, just a regular ole body or frame swap