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Ifs 101

DMG said:
That’s almost as bad as that time someone inverted your soup spoon. Lucky mom was there or you might have starved.
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Next time you use an angle grinder I hope the wheel explodes. :flipoff2:
 
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YotaAtieToo said:
What were you breaking in the Sami case? Lot of guys running them with much bigger tires and axles.

Sxs diffs are stupid high like 3.30s, the normal portals are only 1.2:1 also.
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SXS diffs would never live in my tracker regardless of gear ratio. The samurai t-case got to where it won’t stay in in gear. First it got stuck in low range. Pulled it split it and put back together, now It kicks into neutral from hi or low. Nothing appears broken, it’s got a good shifter bushing in it. If it can’t survive an 8V engine pushing 30” tires it isn’t going to cut it for me.
 
JR4X said:
SXS diffs would never live in my tracker regardless of gear ratio. The samurai t-case got to where it won’t stay in in gear. First it got stuck in low range. Pulled it split it and put back together, now It kicks into neutral from hi or low. Nothing appears broken, it’s got a good shifter bushing in it. If it can’t survive an 8V engine pushing 30” tires it isn’t going to cut it for me.
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Doesn't sound like you broke anything, sounds like some shifter parts might need to be replaced. As far as I know they're as strong or stronger than a kick tcase. I think even a fully bling billet Sami case would be cheaper than the coin for bling 9" centers. There is also the option for a land rover case (up to 1.8 high iirc) or a 4 spd atlas with either 1.5 or 2:1 rear case. You haven't fully disclosed what engine you plan to run though. I'd think if you want to use rzr suspension, a Toyota 8" supra diff or similar Nissan or whatever would work with the Sami tcase. Seems like 9" diffs and rzr parts would be a little mismatched.
 
YotaAtieToo said:
Doesn't sound like you broke anything, sounds like some shifter parts might need to be replaced. As far as I know they're as strong or stronger than a kick tcase. I think even a fully bling billet Sami case would be cheaper than the coin for bling 9" centers. There is also the option for a land rover case (up to 1.8 high iirc) or a 4 spd atlas with either 1.5 or 2:1 rear case. You haven't fully disclosed what engine you plan to run though. I'd think if you want to use rzr suspension, a Toyota 8" supra diff or similar Nissan or whatever would work with the Sami tcase. Seems like 9" diffs and rzr parts would be a little mismatched.
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Don’t mixed up detents do the same thing? I messed up the shifting on the first 6.5 case that I did and it would lock into low range once shifted (that was an issue with the twisted shift kit install).
 
For those with opinions on where this thread has gone, as the OP, I'm just "meh" on that. The goal of this thread wasn't really to discuss budget or high-end pieces, it was just to better understand the geometry itself, since no matter if you go high or low end, geometry must be understood first. I don't mind the discussion of either to be honest, even though I am definitely not in the high-end budget. The entire point of selling my old buggy and starting this one was to reduce my overall investment in the hobby while still enjoying it to a moderate, "average Joe" extent.

Again, my goal isn't to divert this topic to my specific needs. But since it seems like some direction might be appreciated, and maybe it will lead to other discussions, I'll just state what I want to do. Maybe the discussion will lead to me realizing that it's not realistic, which, in a way, would still be helpful.
  1. I've got 05+ SD60 UB's, brakes, drive pucks, new balljoints, literally everything I need to build a SFA. Ideally I'd like to utilize the UB's in some fabricated uprights. I have no clue yet how I can do that affordably but I've got a manual mill, a lathe, MIG and TIG capabilities, CAD capabilities, CNC plasma and laser capabilities. I feel like there has to be a way to make this happen affordably.
  2. I've got completely new, geared and locked 9" third members. F9 IFS housings on the market right now seem insanely overpriced to me. Maybe I'm missing something but they seem like just a base housing cut down with some bearing blocks on each side with some simple-ass shafts coming out of them. You can buy entire rear housings with semi-float shafts for less than an IFS center. It seems like this shouldn't be that expensive to me. I might consider building my own, but I need only one so maybe this is a spot that I should splurge?
  3. I'll have to do some analysis but maybe even my SD60 balljoints can be used in the a-arms, angles permitting. (Not a huge deal here if they can't as I've got plenty of heims I can use already as well.)
  4. I've got double-ended cylinders for steering already. Maybe make my own rack? Those things seem brutishly simple and insultingly overpriced.
  5. This leaves axles. Ideally I'd like to start off with something stock that is heavy-duty with the option of upgrading later. The Chevy CV axles seems like an obvious choice here if they offer enough angularity. I'm oblivious to other options though. (Are tripod joints inferior in some way to 934-style joints?)
So let's see if I can be educated as to why any of this won't work. If so, it will just be further education on the general topic, which serves my purposes anyway. Keep in mind though, this only needs to hold up to 40" tires on a 300hp rig weighing in around 3000lbs. I don't need 30" of travel. It will be riding on 14" ORI's, which I also already have. I'd like it to be competent in rocks, but not any sort of champion. Just enough to have fun with. If I can't follow my friends, I'm fine going around. I'd like to be able to bomb around the dirt roads at my local parks at max speeds of around 60mph or less, which would be insanely fun to me. I feel like these criteria do not require a $60,000 front suspension setup. Maybe I'm wrong ...
 
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Use google to find pics of what joe Thompson (UFO; Gomez cars, Gunter, Bergson?) is doing for steering in his fronts. If I remember correctly, it is a DE cylinder swing set.
 
He had a video (not a great one) on FB at one time
 
Here's some really cool steering I stumbled across over at Mason Motorsports the other day. If you have a minute, surf their FB page and get lost in the attention to detail, absolutely impressive stuff over there

https://www.facebook.com/MasonMotorsports

But the steering is a centered steering box with a small link connecting it to a swing set, I find the idea interesting and i like the readily available mechanical connection versus those insanely priced racks

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116197984_1589984554515391_2486747937580503002_o.jpg?_nc_cat=101&ccb=2&_nc_sid=9267fe&_nc_ohc=_vZXF763RdkAX-CCjrL&_nc_ht=scontent.fsac1-1.fna&oh=0d1aefeade1adfb58f357fee6b07f395&oe=60179A23.jpg
 
I've got a newb question regarding IFS. How does arm separation come into play? Is there a reason manufacturers make a 2ft tall knuckle?
 
patooyee said:
Looking at his FB page now. See several videos of steering, all racks.

https://www.facebook.com/joey.thompson.7315/videos
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I believe it's the blue Gomez Bro's rig he built. Hard to see, but I think there's a red steering box cap just behind the winch plate off to the drivers side
*Edit* Looks like there's a box in this dark colored Gomez UFO chassis as well

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View attachment 43678683_662854484115095_842253025299922944_o.jpg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=2&_nc_sid=...fna&oh=91625298c69dc4
 
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Maybe some one can find the build spider did on the old board. It was a low down junkyard part build, but had some really neat ideas.

His solution for steering was to mount the rod to the chassis and the tie rods to the body of the cylinder. Looked really simple and seemed to work.
 
Wilson said:
Don’t mixed up detents do the same thing? I messed up the shifting on the first 6.5 case that I did and it would lock into low range once shifted (that was an issue with the twisted shift kit install).
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I'm not sure honestly, I've only ever had one Sami case apart about 15+ years ago. I believe the shift rod/detent design is similar to a Toyota and I could see that happening.
 
AgitatedPancake said:
Here's some really cool steering I stumbled across over at Mason Motorsports the other day. If you have a minute, surf their FB page and get lost in the attention to detail, absolutely impressive stuff over there

https://www.facebook.com/MasonMotorsports

But the steering is a centered steering box with a small link connecting it to a swing set, I find the idea interesting and i like the readily available mechanical connection versus those insanely priced racks


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That's cool but why did we all stop using boxes in the first place?
 
patooyee said:
That's cool but why did we all stop using boxes in the first place?
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Not sure if 100% serious, but having just built a single triangulated 4 link with full hydro and am currently building a 3 link with a box, it's a ton more work to make it actually work decent. Especially when you want to actually use the whole 14-16" shock. I'm still stoked about having a real box at the end since I like driving to the trail.
 
YotaAtieToo said:
Not sure if 100% serious, but having just built a single triangulated 4 link with full hydro and am currently building a 3 link with a box, it's a ton more work to make it actually work decent. Especially when you want to actually use the whole 14-16" shock. I'm still stoked about having a real box at the end since I like driving to the trail.
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I'm serious. It's been decades since I've seen a serious rig without a cylinder. As I recall the boxes weren't as powerful? It's been so long I honestly don't recall why cylinders became the standard.
 
patooyee said:
I'm serious. It's been decades since I've seen a serious rig without a cylinder. As I recall the boxes weren't as powerful? It's been so long I honestly don't recall why cylinders became the standard.
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A good high flow box with an assist cylinder will have near the same power.

It just becomes a packaging issue, imagine a rock bouncer or buggy where the chassis ends basically at the axle, then imagine trying to fit a steering box, and making all that travel work with a drag link and panhard bar.

For the ifs, obviously it's a very valid option. I'm curious if those ufo cars have an assist cylinder, or if it's just some high zoot bad ass box.
 
In my own opinion, it's a few things. One, because a double triangulated 4 link became the standardized holy grail that everyone aspired to (just talking about the publics reaction to it, not comparing geometries). Because who wants their axle swinging side to side. Which due to bump steer forces full hydro unless you get fancy with a push pull setup. Next is the general off the cuff consensus that full hydro is better/faster/stronger without actual analysis and comparison (which doesn't always hold true). Third, is just the appeal of the simplicity.

Personally I'm a huge fan of mechanical connections and road worthiness, so I'm pro mechanical steering everywhere possible.

On IFS, I think the general association that long travel ifs = rack steering sent many people down that path, if for no other primary reason than simplicity and not trying to get inventive with steering boxes like the above setups. But I personally think the use of a steering box is the way to fly. Even if you do something more traditional like a steering box and symmetrical idler arm with a center link that your tie rods connect to, you can literally make your steering geometry do whatever you please through travel

Yota, I'm 99.9% sure they have an assist ram on those things from what I recall (even though pics are hard to see)
 
patooyee said:
I'm serious. It's been decades since I've seen a serious rig without a cylinder. As I recall the boxes weren't as powerful? It's been so long I honestly don't recall why cylinders became the standard.
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2 reasons jump out, steering ratio and assist level.

that box in post #220 is pretty massive, so blowing up the box or lacking assist is probably not much of an issue.

it is cheap to get a cylinder that can be very durable and is easy to adjust how much assist and what ratio you want
 
To answer the 9" center section. I wonder if something like this would be dumb in a buggy? It's half the price of the F9, and it seems like it would be fine as long as it's well protected from rocks, but it sure would suck to spend $1200 and have it fail :laughing:​​​​​​

https://dutchmanaxles.com/irs-housing-alloy-axle-package-cv-style.html

Here is something in the middle price wise, but a fab steel center. The $1100 doesn't include Stubs Btw, they want $800 more for those. :homer:


https://www.cachassisworks.com/p-3657-fab9-irs-center.aspx



Also came across the prorock 80 irs/ifs center :grinpimp::laughing:
 
Whether it's a swing set, rack or DE cylinder doesn't matter. What matters is the line of motion that the rod ends move through. Once you know what you want your options for making that happen and the tradeoffs become clear.

You people need to stop thinking in terms of rack vs box vs hydro.
 
Provience said:
2 reasons jump out, steering ratio and assist level.

that box in post #220 is pretty massive, so blowing up the box or lacking assist is probably not much of an issue.

it is cheap to get a cylinder that can be very durable and is easy to adjust how much assist and what ratio you want
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Being double shear has to make that box much stronger, too.
 
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