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Ifs 101

Stephen Wilson said:
I believe the problem with tripod joints is fairly limited angularity.
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I don't see how they're any more limited than any other plunging joint. You're always going to be limited by the shaft contacting the bell at full compression.
 
arse_sidewards said:
I don't see how they're any more limited than any other plunging joint. You're always going to be limited by the shaft contacting the bell at full compression.
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If you are plunged all the way into the cup. You are limited. And at least one of the rollers would come out of the track.
 
Stephen Wilson said:
I haven't researched it heavily, but from a quick Google, Rzeppa style CV's allow 45-54°, Tripos CV's 26°.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constant-velocity_joint
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For an apples to apples comparison against the tripod - plunging CV's are less than 30* as well from what I've seen.


Because of the bolt pattern and wheel mount face diameter I'm really not getting much hope that there are any off the shelf rotors that will fit the 05+ stuff with shallower hat depths. So if aftermarket is required, I did stumble upon two interesting Wilwood hat offerings. One with a 1.34" offset, one with a 1.92" hat. Catch is with the cheapest rotors they make for this hat, it's almost a $600 per corner combination, not including the caliper configuration. Not too friendly to the stock/off the shelf hopes here

https://www.wilwood.com/Hats/HatProd?itemno=170-14560



170-14560-lg.jpg
 
Some interesting information for us. Raptor 50* CV's On FB. Jesse Haines.

11821137_1482089682090932_56266829_a.jpg
74weld
First in crawling. Little known, but Ford had one they developed for a raptor. We run it on the 4600 Bronco portals. 50* is so gnarly! That’s awesome you guys got them going for the H1 stuff. Nice 👏
 
I'm pretty curious about this. Jesse mentioned that the shaft is larger than a previous version so is the lip of the bell just pulled back more? Strength when it gets to this point is naturally a concern no matter what but did it just get a lot worse? In a portal application this is a no brainer good thing. With a center drive hub, it could be awesome too, or maybe not?

Portals just need to get way cheaper for IFS. They solve so many problems.
 
Isdtbower said:
Some interesting information for us. Raptor 50* CV's On FB. Jesse Haines.

11821137_1482089682090932_56266829_a.jpg
74weld
First in crawling. Little known, but Ford had one they developed for a raptor. We run it on the 4600 Bronco portals. 50* is so gnarly! That’s awesome you guys got them going for the H1 stuff. Nice 👏
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I'm torn. I hope the six figure heavily sponsored 4600 bronco gets its ass kicked by some home built nobody's.

Other side I dig the tech and hope I can afford portals someday
 
Stephen Wilson said:
Not to be picky, but I saw it hit the bumps at least twice, once on each side :)
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Watched it again and they definitely touched the bumps. Not very hard but there was contact. My bad. I'm used to seeing desert truck suspension videos where they are constantly hitting the bumps. I was expecting to see the same in that video considering how rough the terrain is.
 
Maybe Loren has his car tuned like Shannon Campbell, with a very aggressive tube that almost never bottoms out but is hell in terms of comfort ?
I think that mobil1syn is the one that was talking about it.
 
patooyee said:
That's so amazing it's almost de-motivational. I guarantee there's more money in that front suspension alone than the entirety of any buggy I could ever afford to build or buy.
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Yeah I know what you mean. I like that stuff but it's so out of reach that it's almost not interesting. Or not as much as it used to be. Sorta like Hyper cars, yeah they are cool but I'm more interested in a Corvette cause I could maybe afford to buy one.
 
Honestly I view it from another perspective compared to some IFS systems out there, his is pretty attainable. the only extremely expensive thing about his setup is the shocks, but that's the case will all racing IFS systems no way around it. The rest of Loren's front suspension (Horschel built I believe?) looks pretty well within reach to me. Looks like a common-width "narrow" 9" center (I'd guess dimensionally similar to that dutchman), not one of the super narrows like Proformance. Then it doesn't have portals, and the arms are just built from plate, heims, and uniballs. It does have a fancy steering rack, but cheaper custom steering box systems could work around that costly item. While I assume they're running custom uprights, you could do similar with weld in bearing cups (or just use the GM 3500 stuff discussed earlier in the thread if the geometry works).

So with that in mind, I think that one is inspiring to us home tinkerers more than super narrow or portal IFS rigs (but damn those are amazing).
 
AgitatedPancake said:
Looks like a common-width "narrow" 9" center (I'd guess dimensionally similar to that dutchman), not one of the super narrows like Proformance.
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I'm pretty sure it's a spidertrax unit. Let's say it's a normal width housing not their super narrow stuff. I also went with their lower $ ProSeries unit bearing

If you go on their website and price it out, here's what you get :

Housing $1700
http://www.spidertrax.com/IFS-4130-Housing

Shafts $2600
http://www.spidertrax.com/30-Series-Diff-Shafts-ARB_3

Builder bells for the outers $900
http://www.spidertrax.com/psubb

Outershafts $2200
http://www.spidertrax.com/psu45s

ProSeries unit bearings $2400
http://www.spidertrax.com/psur6612ps45

We are already at $9800 and that's without series 30 shafts (about $4500 from RCV) nor a good centersection (let's say $3500 from GW) nor the brakes (at least $1k).

That's far from attainable by the regular dude IMO.



I understand the points you're making in terms of engineering complexity, but cost wise, this setup is VERY expensive IMO.
 
Bebop said:
I'm pretty sure it's a spidertrax unit. Let's say it's a normal width housing not their super narrow stuff. I also went with their lower $ ProSeries unit bearing

If you go on their website and price it out, here's what you get :

Housing $1700
http://www.spidertrax.com/IFS-4130-Housing

Shafts $2600
http://www.spidertrax.com/30-Series-Diff-Shafts-ARB_3

Builder bells for the outers $900
http://www.spidertrax.com/psubb

Outershafts $2200
http://www.spidertrax.com/psu45s

ProSeries unit bearings $2400
http://www.spidertrax.com/psur6612ps45

We are already at $9800 and that's without series 30 shafts (about $4500 from RCV) nor a good centersection (let's say $3500 from GW) nor the brakes (at least $1k).

That's far from attainable by the regular dude IMO.



I understand the points you're making in terms of engineering complexity, but cost wise, this setup is VERY expensive IMO.
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I'm not saying replicate every part down to the brand, this thread isn't about doing IFS with unlimited budget, but accomplishing what they do with a more reasonable budget. You can acheive very similar IFS from a geometry/travel/performance perspective, just a little less relaible in terms of being a 700+ HP race car on sticky 40's that *needs* to be able to abuse it beyond any expectation to survive. If I had to guess most of the guys here are looking at 500HP or less, 37-40" tire, and aren't hammering on the throttle with the mind of a racer. If that is you though, yes you need to double or triple the budget.


Dutchman IFS housing with stub shafts $1200
https://dutchmanaxles.com/irs-housing-alloy-axle-package-cv-style.html

Pair of polished plunging 35 spline 934 inner joints $800
https://www.kartek.com/parts/kartek...pline-axles-300m-cage-uses-12mm-cv-bolts.html

2x double splined shafts $275 per (or less) $550
http://branikmotorsports.com/legacy-4340-double-spline-axle-shafts-35-spline-and-smaller-up-to-44/

Then chevy 3500 knuckles/bearing/brakes/stub for a couple hundred bucks *or* go down the builder route with:

Timken 05+ super duty unit bearings under $300 per, $600 total
https://www.partsgeek.com/gbproduct...rSjhfY_X1oT8UjBMKqbVkNXrfs6MJBPRoCRtcQAvD_BwE

05+ Ford bearing cups $475
https://www.weaverfabrication.com/product-category/drive-flanges-and-cups/

05+ RCV stub shafts ~$2000? (They don't list price for stubs)

That's a ~$5600 parts list, that's probably could be done for around $4000 if you have CV stub shaft options besides the $1000 RCV big bell stuff (the chevy outers would be a good cheap example). And it would should have no problem holding up to 400+ HP and 37s, would probably even live on 39"s with concious driving. But you can net the same (very similar) geometry to Lorens rig and similar travel numbers depending on where you decide to limit the CV angle for the sake of heat. Then if that's still out of budget, entertaining the idea of chevy outers would cut your costs in half again while still retaining most of the desireable traits of a heavy duty long travel 4wd IFS system
 
But what's the point to IFS if your not going to beat on it like a racer? I get being different, but you could spend less, run 40s, and beat on it harder if you went solid axle.
 
Ghetto Fab. said:
But what's the point to IFS if your not going to beat on it like a racer? I get being different, but you could spend less, run 40s, and beat on it harder if you went solid axle.
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Thank you.

I can break 35sp 300M shit somewhat easily. Sooo that's a no go for me.

Edit : My buggy has 14 bolts with 40sp shafts and a steer axle like that will push around 7 to 10k once built. I already think it's very expensive.
 
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Fair enough, it just sounds like we're talking about different intended applications so you guys need to budget 2x-3x what would cater to my needs from the powertrain surviveability perspective. And this shines a bright light on the fact that there is no single solution that fits all. It sounds like the only way you'd do an IFS build is with 20k to dump into the front end. But I'm a firm believer that you can do 95% of the same awesomeness for less than 50% of the budget needed for the most expensive components

With my personal build choices, my setup would be equally capable and durable at high speeds where IFS shines, within a budget that's much more attainable for the everyday builder. The bulk of the costs would go into the shocks to make the IFS perform where I'd be beating on it the hardest, at those higher speeds where powertrain strength isn't the biggest weak link. It'll still do rocks and everything else just fine, but I wouldn't flog it in the rocks as hard as I do at speed. But then again, 35 spline chromo shafts are enough for my driving style.
 
Ghetto Fab. said:
But what's the point to IFS if your not going to beat on it like a racer? I get being different, but you could spend less, run 40s, and beat on it harder if you went solid axle.
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A long travel IFS is crap load of fun. So much smoother than a live axle.

I built my first one more to learn about IFS ('86 4Runner with a +3" kit), but after driving it around, just found myself going faster and faster over trails, trying different lines. Etc. it was a cool experience.
 
I hear that Tim, I can't wait to have some IFS fun of my own. In fact I'm interested in building an exploratory setup to take my learning to the next step beyond paper (these tech threads) and have some fun with the creative process. It may be a while yet, but I've started to mess around with the cad mock ups and geometry (bulkhead is currently just a sample part to create the desired geometry). It'll have most of the bells and whistles of a U4 car, dialed back to the experimental level. IFS 9" center Mig welded mild steel control arms, import heims/uniballs, and either 05+ Ford unit bearings with super expensive custom brakes, or something like the GM 3500 uprights, bearings, and brakes. Probably run a 3" IBP plus air bump, but set the control arms up for dual shocks for expandability. Then a common LP9 chunk with 35 spline chromos paired with 934 joints in a rig with 37" tires and under 400hp. Hell if I wanted to start having fun quickly, it could even start as a 2wd initially if I have the exact dimensions of the pumpkin to work off of.

With that combo I should be able to run out of shock, or run out of motor before I reach the limits of the rest of the suspension, and that's fine by me!

IFS - Full Front Clip.JPG


And just for grins, what I'm seriously contemplating building it out of heh. I appreciate a fully sealed cab, and have the XJ I could start with in the next 6 months to a year
XJ IFS - Assembly 2.JPG
 
Good Stuff guys. Fish on Race Dezert had the Geiser Brothers and Mason talk about the new 4x4 Trucks. They both agreed that a IFS truck is about 20% more expensive and 25% higher in maintenance than a 2WD. So if a TT is $500k then the IFS/4wd is a $100k adder.... WOW!! That relates to BIG numbers. $30k centers, Portals, billet uprights, +++++. Just some recent news and may NOT reflect our numbers vs a Straight live Axle. I would think a IFS in our world is closer to 1.5-2x the cost of a Straight axle system.
 
Walking around the junkyard today and saw this guy. Was massive, 10" wide and 19" long. Thought of this thread, too big for anything I own.

Rear IRS out f a newer sequoia.



20210812_154620.jpg

20210812_154906.jpg
 
Looks narrow. Maybe someone has a more complete picture with stubs and information.

Over the years I have become a non-believer in IRS. And with the hydro steering improvements of late, a SAxle is probably better for 95% up until 60 mph offroad. And then you can start thinking about possible benefits of IFS. For the fast guys, the trophy truck engineers are pushing to a next level that is going to spin back to Ultra4. But, TT's don't have to turn.....
 
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