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High misalignments not only need to match the ball radius, but the width they have the ball cut down to (a 1.5" ball at 1" wide will need a different spacer than a 1.5" ball at 7/8" wide)
 
It's also why I brought up designing/making your own hi-mis spacers. If you can't find what you need, make 'em.
 
Patooyee. You are on the right track technically.

I will probably bet that misalignments were first meant for rod end/heims. Mainly to allow the ball to turn further than the body hitting the mounting tab will allow. That would also apply to whatever body you designed to hold a similar (ball) rod end. ALL this can be confusing as you are noting and most not covered in catalogs. Kartek gave you some good info that I had not put together either.

The GEZ series is something that I just stumbled on when wanting to rebuild some rod ends. You can actually push the bearings out of a rod end bearing and replace them with the correct size Spherical bearing. There are actually services that do this as bearings are usually pressed out pretty easily. 10-15% of rated loads and why you try to avoid using them with forces in that direction without good snap rings.

In one of the video's above, I showed threading for a 1.5" rod end. The shank was 1.5" dia also. Two were meant to be the front pivots of a real healthy rear IRS trailing arm. If that rod end failed it would be all over for the whole car probably. They were $$$$. and just needed to turn 1* in use other than up and down. But Ebay helped me with a 1.5" rod end with a basic steel to steel ball that was not meant to rotate a lot. Bridge parts. They were dirt cheap. Like $10 ea. When I got them I saw that the GEZ bearing, which also has minimal angle, has seals on both sides, and teflon coated fit. Ebay came to the rescue again for about $20 ea. That was when I verified how easy it was to push a bearing out of a body. In this case the bearing was rated for 100,000ish lbs and only too 7,000 lbs to push them out and the GEZ back in. I punch "Staked" the body to hopefully make it tougher to move as thoe bearing do take some side loads. I know they take side loads as I have bent swing arms sideways with traction before. A corvette swingarm is easily bent with sand paddles and just 350hp. The tire wants to climb into the front of the fender which bends the swingarm and ultimately slices the $600 tire like a knife. The tires do make awesome flower pots though. You can' cut them cleaner...LOL

Because the IFS top inner pivots do not turn axlally, I believe a sealed GEZ could be a good choice there. With just some spacers for a little clearance. Those pivots are now 1" heims with 3/4" bolts. The IRS trailing arm pivot is the 1.5" GEZ/heim with a 1" grade 9 bolt. I did find it possible to buy heims with GEZ bearings in them but were REALLY $$$$. Probably as rare,

The COM H bearing has a smaller outside diameter vs the WSSX and the GEZ something in between...So you have a better chance of tucking the com bearing into the bottom of an upright. Or miss a rim on the top.

There is more tech here than your bearing supplier might not want you to know. Or wan to keep it as simple as possible for sales. Again, your Kartek contact was on it! And Rare. Remember him if you can when you get ready to buy. He will be invaluable for the next question.


EDIT: Tim you are asking a lot of a home machinist to make misalignment's where the misalignment has to enter the bearing race. I didn't feel comfortable with that so tried to stay with those that could be purchased. And usually stuck to the Kartek brand as stainless and hardened. FK and others are stainless but not hardened...but you could send them out with other parts you are making. But misalignments that are basically spacers to clear the body are. I did make those and will batch harden with other stainless parts I have made. Usually 14-7PH stainless. All good. Many have great resources.
 
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AgitatedPancake said:
High misalignments not only need to match the ball radius, but the width they have the ball cut down to (a 1.5" ball at 1" wide will need a different spacer than a 1.5" ball at 7/8" wide)
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So make them the right width? Cut off what you don't need? We used to turn them in a lathe/mill/grinder to adjust the shoulder length. It really doesn't need to match the radius either, it just needs to clear the race, ie it can be smaller then the ball radius but not bigger. You can trim the shoulder back as well to make it fit. I've even used a piece of tube, for like above a 1" OD tube with a 0.75" ID will improve your misalignment angles a bit. Although 1/8" might not be thick enough a 3/4" bolt.

You guys are talking about making your own IFS systems but can't figurer how to make a Miss Spacer fit? :confused:


Also looks like the FKS seems to have the same ball size as the COM bearings sooo.....
 
AgitatedPancake said:
High misalignments not only need to match the ball radius, but the width they have the ball cut down to (a 1.5" ball at 1" wide will need a different spacer than a 1.5" ball at 7/8" wide)
Click to expand...

It's funny you mention that because I'm modeling up bearings and spacers tonight just to get visuals and am running into that exact issue. This model is an FK WSSX16 with an FK 16-12HB. The spacer is supposedly made to fit this joint but here is what their published dimensions are showing me in CAD:

WSSX16T.JPG


The radius is correct but the dia. where it coincides with the ball in the joint is too small. I know this combination would work. But as it pivots it does allow a small amount of space for contaminants to enter the joint and is clearly not as good a fit as the joint on the right in the pic I just posted above.
 
Weasel said:
So make them the right width? Cut off what you don't need?
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OK, it's not me that's confused, I'm certain of that now.

You're talking about the wrong width. He's talking about diameter, you're talking about length.
 
I can chuck a spacer up in my lathe and shorten it, make the hole size bigger, and a few other things. But I'm no machinist and turning a proper radius by hand is beyond my skillset. I guess maybe I could mill or grind a radiused tool for the lathe but it would be so much easier to just buy proper spacer from the get go.

The guy at Kartek said that the WSSX series is the "standard." Most of what they sell is WSSX. No one to this point has said anything about WSSX bearings breaking. So I question if the added strength and limitations of the FKS is necessary.
 
Weasel said:
. I've even used a piece of tube, for like above a 1" OD tube with a 0.75" ID will improve your misalignment angles a bit. Although 1/8" might not be thick enough a 3/4" bolt.

.
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Exactly. Once you get above 1/2" bolts, the clamping forces can overcome some of the misalignment's. I stepped up the IRS trailing arm heim because the spacers just didn't have enough wall thickness in my mind....... The same with the inside top heims...... Remember hardening....... Many times I have seen pit mechanics pounding out the bolts because the misalignments had collapsed on them.

MAke sure you have clearance to punch all the way out or stack wrenches under the head to pry it out. (Hint)

EDIT: The Teflon will go away in the bearings before they come close to any breaking. There are also classes of fit when ordering heims and bearings. Same price. Most order the tight fit where you can't physically spin the ball. The other fit you can. Most order tight and run the car for some time before doing any shock testing. (For real)

EDIT 2: One year at SEMA, i questioned how the rod ends were rated for strength. It seemed like there was no standard test for what they considered "yield"
Some considered the body failing, some considered the body yielding, Others considered the ball to be "loose." I am sure there are mil specs out there but you won't see those in most "race" catalogs. On that note. There are differences in "Teflon." and their strength before squeezing out. Heims with Teflon injected in after the ball is inserted are usually the weakest from that standpoint...but are "inexpensive" and work for many. The stronger are generally surrounded by a glass or Kevlar matrix to contain the Teflon. When you start buying rod ends by the dozen for links and IFS, $$$'s add up fast and can become a budget decision.

EDIT 3: WSSX = Stainless...Not a bad idea. .. FKS= Steel alloy, Hard chrome ball/stainless .. COM = Steel, hard chrome ball

Edit4: It goes on and on. Figure what is best and then SHOP if you have to. If you do. Get your sh_t together for an order with enough quantity that makes it easy for the guy on the other end to make an easy order entry or make that one phone call to get you the best price. Don't plan on fast delivery unless they have stock and like the quantity for them to get the right prices from their suppliers. (Ordering rim lock bolts? Amazing what you can do)
 
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Isdtbower said:
EDIT 2: One year at SEMA, i questioned how the rod ends were rated for strength. It seemed like there was no standard test for what they considered "yield"
Some considered the body failing, some considered the body yielding, Others considered the ball to be "loose." I am sure there are mil specs out there but you won't see those in most "race" catalogs. On that note. There are differences in "Teflon." and their strength before squeezing out. Heims with Teflon injected in after the ball is inserted are usually the weakest from that standpoint...but are "inexpensive" and work for many. The stronger are generally surrounded by a glass or Kevlar matrix to contain the Teflon. When you start buying rod ends by the dozen for links and IFS, $$$'s add up fast and can become a budget decision.
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MilSpec goes by measurable play in the direction of greatest concern depending on bearing size/type/task, and is typically very little to no play allowed.

most often they are replaced due to corrosion or pitting or some other type of damage that would be wholly superficial on a car. split case bearings that get roll staked or regular bearings that get the housing staked are pretty common and you can control the tension on them that way a bit more.

the cheapest bearing that you can install tightest into a replaceable joint would probably be a pretty hot ticket. no need for any teflon or anything crazy, but you'd have to plan on replacing them regularly.
 
I used these on my lower control arm at the knuckle. The bolt is vertical. These are rebuildable and greasable. Almost 30 deg misalignment. $90 CAD so about $60 US, as an option to uniballs.
  • Diameter - 3.25"
  • Width of weldable body - 1-5/8"

photo44874.jpg
 
OCM said:
I used these on my lower control arm at the knuckle. The bolt is vertical. These are rebuildable and greasable. Almost 30 deg misalignment. $90 CAD so about $60 US, as an option to uniballs.
  • Diameter - 3.25"
  • Width of weldable body - 1-5/8"
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You can't post pics without links, you tease!
 
I don’t post here a lot but I read it all and love the tech.
found this on Jason Scherer’s Instagram and thought it would be interesting since it pertains to the discussion.

image_44889.jpg

image_44888.jpg
 
I knew Commiefornians were out of touch but that dust/grease seal takes it to a whole new level.

The joint itself looks decent though.
 
The pic I posted is from the EMF Rod Ends web site.
One of the reasons that you see the upper joints showing wear when the bolt is vertical might be because most of the designs that I have seen have the bump stop hitting the upper control arm. I used a simple uniball at the top but the bump stop hits a pad on the top of the knuckle.

61571420_10162022045025077_6734633368668864512_n.jpg
 
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arse_sidewards said:
I knew Commiefornians were out of touch but that dust/grease seal takes it to a whole new level.

The joint itself looks decent though.
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I have been running around the rust belt with open uniballs on my tundra for years. You would be surprised how long stuff survives.
 
Bebop said:
I don’t post here a lot but I read it all and love the tech.
found this on Jason Scherer’s Instagram and thought it would be interesting since it pertains to the discussion.


Click to expand...

So simple but genius. I love stuff like that!
 
DMG said:
I have been running around the rust belt with open uniballs on my tundra for years. You would be surprised how long stuff survives.
Click to expand...

Do you have a build? I’m coming to a cross roads with my tundra.
 
DMG said:
It’s a first gen. Is yours a 1st or 2nd?
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2nd, trying to decide on building it out a bit or start with a raptor (seems like a significant step backwards in drivetrain reliability). Also kicking around a gladiator, but that is apples and oranges.
 
Wilson said:
2nd, trying to decide on building it out a bit or start with a raptor (seems like a significant step backwards in drivetrain reliability). Also kicking around a gladiator, but that is apples and oranges.
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A mid travel gen 2 tundra has more travel than a raptor and will be much more reliable. When I get a gen 2 I plan on loosely copying the Baja Tundra they built a few years back with input from Ivan Stewart.

Which will be similar to what I have now. Ucas,, coilovers, knuckle gussets, rack bushings, uca bolt end supports, etc.
 
Bebop said:
I don’t post here a lot but I read it all and love the tech.
found this on Jason Scherer’s Instagram and thought it would be interesting since it pertains to the discussion.


Click to expand...

patooyee said:
So simple but genius. I love stuff like that!
Click to expand...



I'll say it again, when you can't find the hi-mis spacer you want, you make them, or in our case, we had them made.

Now I can't say that was 100% our idea, we saw something similar on a desert rig and took it from there.

NOTE: How the uniball cup is inverted. The snap ring is on the under side. Always make sure to have the load driving the uniball into the bottom of the cup.
 
Tech Tim said:
NOTE: How the uniball cup is inverted. The snap ring is on the under side. Always make sure to have the load driving the uniball into the bottom of the cup.
Click to expand...

I'm surprised the end of the upper arm doesn't completely wrap around the cup. Obviously it seems fine, but that still surprises me.
 
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Bebop said:
I'm surprised the end of the upper arm doesn't completely wrap around the cup. Obviously it seems line, but that still surprises me.
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there are a lot out there that dont even have the over lap piece, just weld where the cup touches the arm. the move you dive into other forms of motorsports you realize how much rock crawlers over build things.
 
mobil1syn said:
there are a lot out there that dont even have the over lap piece, just weld where the cup touches the arm. the move you dive into other forms of motorsports you realize how much rock crawlers over build things.
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I've seen too many breaks not to overbuild this kind of parts.
I'm sure that Marcos Gomez doesn't share that particular thinking, since he lost the upper arm and any chance of winning with it.

Not trying to start an argument, but I'm legit concerned with ripping something like this apart. Other than that, I agree with you. But most motorsports don't go about bashing rocks in a desert at speed. It's just hard to find the right balance.
 
Bebop said:
've seen too many breaks not to overbuild this kind of parts.
I'm sure that Marcos Gomez doesn't share that particular thinking, since he lost the upper arm and any chance of winning with it.
Click to expand...

you can only build to protect stupid so much.

does anyone have any details on what happened?
 
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