Hunter DSP9000 tire balancer 3 phase to single phase conversion

[aczlan]

Picked up a Hunter DSP9003 balancer last night, seems to try to work, but its 3 phase and I (like the guy I bought it from) only have single phase available.

Anyone have a schematic or service manual for one of these? Found parts manuals and operators manuals, but not a schematic or service manual.

Looking at the control board and the motor there is 3 phase coming into the board (bottom right in the picture), going through a contactor and out to the motor (black plug with 5 pins in the top right). There is also what appears to be a brake for the motor:

Planning on putting a single phase 220v to 3 phase 230v drive on it, likely a DuraPulse GS11N-22P0 from Automation Direct: https://www.automationdirect.com/ad...iable_frequency_drives_(vfd)/micro/gs11n-22p0

Debating between putting the drive before the board/contactor and letting it do its thing, or using the board/contactor to run a solenoid and running the motor directly off of the drive (setting the drive with a short ramp up and coast to stop).

Anyone have any thoughts on that?

First step will be to bring it into work, plug it into 208v or 240v 3 phase and make sure everything works properly.

Aaron Z

 

[[486]]

look at the board traces, controls'll be powered likely off one pair of the 3 wires, with one just passing through the motor relays
The transformer and rectifier pack on that board probably powers the control side of the machine


I'd probably wire the motor direct to the inverter, then switch the inverter with the relays
set your speed ramping times really fast, and be aware that it'll probably be trying to short the motor leads together for braking, or maybe tossing it in reverse, but dunno. Easy enough to figure it out tracing the traces and looking at the contacts.

on every hunter balancer I've worked on (grand total of three) there's an encoder on the spindle itself with the motor belted up to the spindle, so it isn't like it'll be looking for stepper-motor-like control/accuracy out of the motor

 

[aczlan]

look at the board traces, controls'll be powered likely off one pair of the 3 wires, with one just passing through the motor relays

That is the plan, I'm assuming the "motor only phase" runs off of whichever wire is currently connected to the white wire in the power cord as he has a four prong twist lock plug on the end of the cord and had it plugging into a 240VAC welder outlet.

The transformer and rectifier pack on that board probably powers the control side of the machine

That is how it looks to me.

I'd probably wire the motor direct to the inverter, then switch the inverter with the relays
set your speed ramping times really fast, and be aware that it'll probably be trying to short the motor leads together for braking, or maybe tossing it in reverse, but dunno. Easy enough to figure it out tracing the traces and looking at the contacts.

That makes sense.
For braking I am fairly certain that it has a separate electromagnetic break, there are five black wires that go into the motor, three of them appear to be power wires and I would assume that the other two are for braking.
The VFD I'm looking at using has an option to let it coast to a stop, so I plan to use that and a relay with a 240v coil because it wants 24 volts for its trigger voltage.

on every hunter balancer I've worked on (grand total of three) there's an encoder on the spindle itself with the motor belted up to the spindle, so it isn't like it'll be looking for stepper-motor-like control/accuracy out of the motor

It has a spindle encoder (which has lights that blink as you rotate the spindle by hand) and the spindle is driven by a belt off the motor, so no concerns there.
My only concern would be if they had some kind of speed control for the motor, but it does not appear that there is anything on the board that would do that.

Aaron Z

 

[[486]]

For braking I am fairly certain that it has a separate electromagnetic break, there are five black wires that go into the motor, three of them appear to be power wires and I would assume that the other two are for braking.
The VFD I'm looking at using has an option to let it coast to a stop, so I plan to use that and a relay with a 240v coil because it wants 24 volts for its trigger voltage.

sometimes 3ph stuff is wierd with 6 wires coming outta the motor, like the windings are totally separated rather than being wye or delta

 

[vetteboy79]

You probably know this, but the brake will be power-release - voltage is cut to apply the brake. So if the existing board just cuts power to all 5 of those leads it'll just hit the brake hard with no power to the motor. If you've got a drive trying to ramp down once it gets the 'stop motor' signal from the board, while the brake is just full engage immediately, those two probably won't play nice with each other.

I don't see any advantage, and a few disadvantages, to trying to stuff the VFD in between the existing controls. I'd just set that thing at 230/60/3~ and run the whole machine from it.

 

[aczlan]

You probably know this, but the brake will be power-release - voltage is cut to apply the brake. So if the existing board just cuts power to all 5 of those leads it'll just hit the brake hard with no power to the motor. If you've got a drive trying to ramp down once it gets the 'stop motor' signal from the board, while the brake is just full engage immediately, those two probably won't play nice with each other.

If the brake is power release, there is no friction material left as the spindle spins freely.
That VFD has a "coast to stop" option which should keep the VFD and the brake from fighting each other:

That's one reason why I was hoping that somebody would have a service manual or schematic available, barring that, reverse engineering it is.

I don't see any advantage, and a few disadvantages, to trying to stuff the VFD in between the existing controls. I'd just set that thing at 230/60/3~ and run the whole machine from it.

My first thought was to put the VFD before the whole machine (or make a rotary phase converter and put it there) but discussing it with our plant electrician he had concerns about "noise" in the VFD output messing with the controls.
Additionally, if you go with doubling or tripling the nameplate amperage, the motor nameplate amperage is 2.6A, the whole unit nameplate amperage is 10A.
The VFD that I'm looking at is rated at 7.5A (or 8.5A in "Variable Torque Mode")

Hence why my plan is to first plug it in on "real" three phase, verify that everything works, see what voltages run where when it's in use, then make a final decision on where to put the VFD.

Aaron Z

 

[bgaidan]

You probably know this, but the brake will be power-release - voltage is cut to apply the brake. So if the existing board just cuts power to all 5 of those leads it'll just hit the brake hard with no power to the motor. If you've got a drive trying to ramp down once it gets the 'stop motor' signal from the board, while the brake is just full engage immediately, those two probably won't play nice with each other.

I don't see any advantage, and a few disadvantages, to trying to stuff the VFD in between the existing controls. I'd just set that thing at 230/60/3~ and run the whole machine from it.

My first thought was to put the VFD before the whole machine (or make a rotary phase converter and put it there) but discussing it with our plant electrician he had concerns about "noise" in the VFD output messing with the controls.
Additionally, if you go with doubling or tripling the nameplate amperage, the motor nameplate amperage is 2.6A, the whole unit nameplate amperage is 10A.
The VFD that I'm looking at is rated at 7.5A (or 8.5A in "Variable Torque Mode")

Hence why my plan is to first plug it in on "real" three phase, verify that everything works, see what voltages run where when it's in use, then make a final decision on where to put the VFD.

VFDs don't like being in front of any controls. My money would be on it not working and just tripping the VFD.

Rotary would be the way to go if you have the means.

2.6a is roughly 1 to 1.5hp depending if that's 203 or 230. I can't see the rest of the controls taking up another 7.4a....unless that's including startup and/or braking.

Even then, a 5hp rotary should be enough to power the whole thing.

 

[[486]]

VFDs don't like being in front of any controls. My money would be on it not working and just tripping the VFD.

Rotary would be the way to go if you have the means.

2.6a is roughly 1 to 1.5hp depending if that's 203 or 230. I can't see the rest of the controls taking up another 7.4a....unless that's including startup and/or braking.

Even then, a 5hp rotary should be enough to power the whole thing.

controls don't need the generated leg

would be easy enough to toss a 1hp idler in the bottom of the cabinet, wire it up for single button starting...

Spoiler: rpc wiring diagram

 

[aczlan]

controls don't need the generated leg

would be easy enough to toss a 1hp idler in the bottom of the cabinet, wire it up for single button starting...

Spoiler: rpc wiring diagram

Doesn't that also need a pair of capacitors from T1>T3 and T2>T3?
I assume the start capacitor is so that you don't need a pony motor to get it going?
It's interesting, the motor in the balancer says 2.6 amps at 230V for a 1 hp motor, this other random three phase motor I found says 3.7 amps at 230V for a 1hp motor:

Then amperage wise you would need a 3 pole contactor (or a 2 pole with an aux contact) that could handle at least 8-10A and a smaller one for the start contactor?

Aaron Z

 

[[486]]

Doesn't that also need a pair of capacitors from T1>T3 and T2>T3?
I assume the start capacitor is so that you don't need a pony motor to get it going?
It's interesting, the motor in the balancer says 2.6 amps at 230V for a 1 hp motor, this other random three phase motor I found says 3.7 amps at 230V for a 1hp motor:

Then amperage wise you would need a 3 pole contactor (or a 2 pole with an aux contact) that could handle at least 8-10A and a smaller one for the start contactor?

Aaron Z

the balance capacitors are only for reigning in the wild leg
if the wild leg is only powering a motor then it doesn't really matter in the least
for ideal operation the capacitors need to be sized for load, so in a varying load situation... You can add them, you can ignore them, they're probably good to have in there just to protect from arcing anything out, as the unloaded voltage can get very high without anything connected to that single winding.

Start cap is indeed for kicking the idler into spinning.

start cap contactor is a good place to put a big ugly one that might have one pole burnt up, because of how severe the arcing is on the contacts.
I'd much rather just run dual contact blocks on the "start" button, but they arc out very quickly

 

[GLTHFJ60]

controls don't need the generated leg

would be easy enough to toss a 1hp idler in the bottom of the cabinet, wire it up for single button starting...

Spoiler: rpc wiring diagram

I think what he means re: the controls, vfds don't like inrush current from a motor it controls. If the vfd isn't directly spinning up the motor it's intending to drive, it'll trip. This means (in my experience) no drum switches, no contractors, nothing between the vfd outputs and the motor.

What he's doing would work better if he split the control power and motor power. Manual switch and direct feed for the controls, and a vfd to control the motor(s) directly.

 

[[486]]

I think what he means re: the controls, vfds don't like inrush current from a motor it controls. If the vfd isn't directly spinning up the motor it's intending to drive, it'll trip. This means (in my experience) no drum switches, no contractors, nothing between the vfd outputs and the motor.

What he's doing would work better if he split the control power and motor power. Manual switch and direct feed for the controls, and a vfd to control the motor(s) directly.

I was responding to the second half of his post with that, where he was talking about the power consumption of the control circuitry in the hunter machine
that number doesn't matter because it is being fed single phase from one pair of the three phase
the control transformer on the board there clearly has only two windings rather than three/six

 

[aczlan]

I think what he means re: the controls, vfds don't like inrush current from a motor it controls. If the vfd isn't directly spinning up the motor it's intending to drive, it'll trip. This means (in my experience) no drum switches, no contractors, nothing between the vfd outputs and the motor.

What he's doing would work better if he split the control power and motor power. Manual switch and direct feed for the controls, and a vfd to control the motor(s) directly.

The problem there is that (from what I can tell) the only way to split those off before the contactor on the board would be to cut the traces on the board, not something I want to do.

If I do an rpc, I would put it on the wall so I could use it with another machine down the road if needed and I would make sure that c-phase is the generated leg and it is NOT one of the ones used for control power.

If I do a VFD, it would be between the board and the motor, bypassing the board, using the motor leads from the board to trigger a relay and tell the VFD to turn the motor on.

I can pickup that motor for $40, can probably get the start contactor from the "used but still mostly worked" pile at work (older NEMA starters that got taken out for smaller contactors), not sure if we have anything extra in the 8-10A contactor range.

Decisions, decisions, decisions...


Aaron Z

 

[bgaidan]

I think what he means re: the controls, vfds don't like inrush current from a motor it controls. If the vfd isn't directly spinning up the motor it's intending to drive, it'll trip. This means (in my experience) no drum switches, no contractors, nothing between the vfd outputs and the motor.

What he's doing would work better if he split the control power and motor power. Manual switch and direct feed for the controls, and a vfd to control the motor(s) directly.

Exactly. I've seen a ton of people saying VFDs suck and they couldn't get one to work because they were trying to put a switch between the VFD and motor. Sometimes take a while to get them to understand the concept of wiring the old switches (drum, buttons, etc.) to run the low voltage side of the VFD and control them that way.

If I do an rpc, I would put it on the wall so I could use it with another machine down the road if needed and I would make sure that c-phase is the generated leg and it is NOT one of the ones used for control power.

If I do a VFD, it would be between the board and the motor, bypassing the board, using the motor leads from the board to trigger a relay and tell the VFD to turn the motor on.

I think all of the VFDs I have us 10v ac for the control side so I could see that working if you used a relay to send 10v to the drive. Only concern as others have mentioned is the braking.....and also if the control is doing any kind of monitoring on the motor, other than the encoder.

 

[aczlan]

Went out and took a better look at it.
To start:
Leads off of the motor are labeled 1, 2, 3, P1 and P2. As near as I can tell, P1 and P2 are a N/C thermostatic switch that opens up when the motor gets too hot. No brake at all on the motor.

Inputs to the board are labeled L1, L2 and L3:

The other plugs are for the switch (I think that they are L1 and L2 out to the switch and back) and for the 230V fan, really curious what the "Normal" vs "Low Line" fuse options (right above the unused "230V SIGN" plug) are for:

Control power section, checked and the relays (white Potter and Brumfield ones) are 24V relays:

Which brings us to the important part, the motor contactors:

Top down view of the motor output section:

Finally, the top down view of the high voltage board with pin names (the pin between pin P1 and pin 3 is unused):

The underside of the board showing the circuit traces:

The marked objects are:
L1, L2 and L3: 3 phase power input
B1, B2 and B3: Bolt/screw holes
P1, P2: On the motor connector, N/C motor overtemp thermal switch
1, 2, 3: On the motor connector, go to wires labeled 1, 2 and 3 which go into the motor
Start and Stop relays: 2 interlocked relays, so only one can be on at a time.
R3, R4 and R5: Resistors between the relay outputs and the motor pins or circuit traces
C5, C6 and C7: Capacitors between the relay outputs and the motor pins or circuit traces, the two I can see appear to be F17724222000 which Digikey calls "0.22 µF Film Capacitor 310V 630V Polyester, Metallized Radial" https://www.digikey.com/en/products...g-draloric-bc-components/F17724222000/5371724

Relay logic:
When The Stop Relay (R1) is triggered it connects the input and output pins as follows:
Input L1 to Motor Pin 1
Input L2 to Motor Pin 2
Input L3 to Motor Pin 3

When Start Relay (R2) is triggered it connects the input and output pins as follows:
Input L1 to Motor Pin 1
Input L2 to Motor Pin 3
Input L3 to Motor Pin 2

So, the braking action is the motor being reversed.
Importantly, the relays appear to be triggered by 24V

All this data is to be confirmed before spending any money

To be continued...

Aaron Z

 

[aczlan]

Looking at using a DURAPulse GS11N-22P0 single phase to three phase drive from Automation Direct: https://www.automationdirect.com/ad...iable_frequency_drives_(vfd)/micro/gs11n-22p0

Power: https://cdn.automationdirect.com/static/specs/gs10drives.pdf

Inputs: https://cdn.automationdirect.com/static/specs/gs10drives.pdf

Wiring:https://cdn.automationdirect.com/static/specs/gs10drives.pdf

DI Input Settings: https://cdn.automationdirect.com/static/manuals/gs10m/ch4.pdf

May need a braking resistor, it looks like GS-BR-200W091 is the recommended one: https://www.automationdirect.com/ad...fd)/braking_units_-a-_resistors/gs-br-200w091
So, to add a single phase to 3 phase VFD I will need to:

1. Clean it out and repaint the exterior
2. Confirm which phase is NOT used for control power (I am 99% certain that is is L3)
3. Re-route power:
   1. Remove the power inputs from the L1-L3 terminals
   2. Add a fuse or circuit breaker to the L1/L2 lines on the power cord (It was recommended that I use 25-30 amp fast blow fuses)
   3. Run wires L1A and L2A from of the fuse block to the L1 and L2 terminals on the board
   4. Run wires L1B and L2B from the fuse block to the L1 and L2 input terminals on the VFD
   5. Run wires T1, T2 and T3 from the VFD output terminals to the 1, 2 and 3 input wires on the motor (cut and insulate the wires coming off of the J5 plug, extend the motor end wires as needed, will likely use a terminal strip here for ease of connection and testing if needed)
4. Re-route control power (need to verify how it runs, I think it will call the Run relay to start and the Stop relay to reverse the motor to provide braking) If so:
   1. Run wires DI1 and DCM from the DI1 and DCM terminals on the VFD to the terminals on the Run relay, connect with piggyback spade connectors (either https://www.amazon.com/19043-0010-ADAPTER-SINGLE-DISCONNECT-UNISULATED/dp/B0195V03H4 or the style integrated into the spade connector)
   2. Run wires DI2 and DCM from the DI2 and DCM terminals on the VFD to the terminals on the Stop relay, connect with piggyback spade connectors (either https://www.amazon.com/19043-0010-ADAPTER-SINGLE-DISCONNECT-UNISULATED/dp/B0195V03H4 or the style integrated into the spade connector)
   3. The wires from the relays MAY (probbaly will?) end up triggering relays that close DI1 and DI2 to give electrical isolation
5. Configure the VFD
6. Plug it in and see if I can break anything.

This will leave the thermal switch in the motor (wires P1 and P2) still connected through the stock board and still let any traces that provide feedback on the "output" side of the Start and Stop relays get powered (will test and see if this is needed)

Thinking I may mount the VFD inside the cabinet below the "floor" that the motor and controls mount to (cutting a "hatch" into the front), but that is still up in the air, that would give the shortest wire runs and be well protected, but would be more work. Time will tell.

Aaron Z

 

[aczlan]

Reserved post

 

[[486]]

really curious what the "Normal" vs "Low Line" fuse options (right above the unused "230V SIGN" plug) are for:

prolly 208/240 selection for a couple taps on the primary of the control transformer

 

[aczlan]

prolly 208/240 selection for a couple taps on the primary of the control transformer

That would make sense, if I plug it in on 208V and its below 24V that should be a good indication. If its right on at 24V on 208V input, I may need to switch it when I go to 240V input.

Aaron Z

 

[78bronco460]

I’ll suggest this without knowing this exact machine or seeing the schematic: Get a couple SPDT relays that match the coil voltage of the start and stop relays. Move the brown & red to one and orange & yellow to the other new relay coils Use the NO contacts on the new start relay for the run/enable and new stop relay NC contacts for the stop/fault reset on the vfd DI’s. Wire the P1&P2 to the external fault DI.
I’ve worked on a few balancing machines for machine shops turning shafts and big armatures, not for wheels.

 

[GLTHFJ60]

First of all, fuck all that, lol.

Get a rpc. All problems fixed

 

[aczlan]

And the debate continues.
Make a RPC with a pair of takeout NEMA O size starters, a $10 start capacitor, a bleed resistor and a $40 1HP 3 phase motor ($60ish total with lots of takeout parts) and hope it works without much drama (gaining an RPC if I buy something else that needs a VFD down the road)

Or rewire it to use a VFD and know it should work out of the gate, but spend $200ish on the RPC and the braking resistor which are dedicated to this machine.

Then there is option 3, convert it to use a DC treadmill motor (of which I have several) and adapt a treadmill control board to use relay inputs.

Aaron Z

 

[[486]]

Then there is option 3, convert it to use a DC treadmill motor (of which I have several) and adapt a treadmill control board to use relay inputs.

belt is a fine-pitch multigroove on both the tire balancer and on the treadmill
maybe the same pitch

 

[arse_sidewards]

maybe the same pitch

That would be too easy. Zero fucking chance.

 

[aczlan]

Treadmill motor won't work, the motor is face mounted and the treadmill motor is not setup to be face mounted.
Might also mess up the balance of the system using a different motor as the motor and spindle assembly all "float" together.

Aaron Z

 

[78bronco460]

I’ll suggest this without knowing this exact machine or seeing the schematic: Get a couple SPDT relays that match the coil voltage of the start and stop relays. Move the brown & red to one and orange & yellow to the other new relay coils Use the NO contacts on the new start relay for the run/enable and new stop relay NC contacts for the stop/fault reset on the vfd DI’s. Wire the P1&P2 to the external fault DI.
I’ve worked on a few balancing machines for machine shops turning shafts and big armatures, not for wheels.

I forgot to mention the P1&2 wires from the control board should go to the NC contacts on the vfd fault DO.

 

[aczlan]

For future reference, the connector from the board to the motor are:
Board side: ITT Cannon TST06RE01T https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/itt-cannon-llc/TST06RE01T/2643062

Plug going to the motor: ITT Cannon TST06PF00 https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/itt-cannon-llc/TST06PF00/2642912

Pins for the plug: ITT Cannon T2P16FC4LT https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/itt-cannon-llc/T2P16FC4LT/2486859

Straight pin jack: ITT Cannon TST06RD01T https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/itt-cannon-llc/TST06RD01T/2643061

Aaron Z

 

[aczlan]

Decided to go the RPC route, building a 1HP RPC (the motor on the balancer claims to be 1HP, but the nameplate amp draw is half that of the 1HP idler motor.

Got my little 1HP RPC working yesterday (at least enough to say it works), need to order plugs for the power cord, some bleed resistors, find the 240V to 120V transformer that I had at one point for control voltage and clean up the install a little:

It took a 80uf cap for starting it (A-C, 250V cap), a 40UF running cap (A-C, 370V cap), and a 25UF running cap (B-C, 370V cap).
Voltages above are all with nothing connected, just the motor idling.
These are the voltmeters/amp meters, the CTs are on the output side, might be interesting to add another pair of amp meters for the incoming L1 and L2, but not right now:

Amazon.com

For controls it has a 30A 2 pole switch as the main disconnect, a N/C "Stop" button and a N/O "Start" button.

Aaron Z

 

[aczlan]

Hooked up the RPC (with wire nuts because I forgot to order plugs in time, they show up tomorrow) it works, went through the calibration cycle and it says it passed. Went through a "calibration check" and it passed that as well.

Aaron Z