how to power 460v 3ph on 240 single?

[tracyb]

looking at buying a small press brake 55ton 6ft. so far what i ve been able to look up is that its going to cost to much to get it running in my shop.

heres the press and the electrical plate needs 13amps of 3ph 460v

how would i go about doing this?

 

[ThePanzerFuhrer]

Rotary to get three phase. Transformer to boost it to 460. Big dumb things this is the cheapest method.

 

[tracyb]

i dont have any place local that i can source parts from so its all going to be ordered online...

when first looking it up, i saw people saying step it up then phase convert, others say the opposite. wanting easy i looked up a plug and play type set up and it was around $5k, at that cost i'll pass on the press brake (i've been wanting to build one for years, but buying a real one would be ideal). i can see $2k plus think

then there is the sizing. clac i used says 460v 3ph @ 13a (90%eff. .9powerfactor?)= 11.25hp

i'm hoping something like this is big enough, seems they get allot more expensive going bigger:

American Rotary Phase Converter AR20 - 20HP | Start up to a 10Hp | FREE SHIPPING | eBay

Phase Converter AR20 - 20 HP Pro Series. Best for: 10 HP General Purpose, motor loads, combination loads, light to moderate loads. For a 20HP load, see ourAR40. Total motor run: 20HP. Single motor start: 10HP.

www.ebay.com

and then i haven't even gone into sizing the transformer, but maybe something like this?

DONGAN 63-6230SH General Purpose Transformer, 30 kVa 480V, 208Y/120V | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for DONGAN 63-6230SH General Purpose Transformer, 30 kVa 480V, 208Y/120V at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

does this seem like a working combo?

i'm not a complete retard, i passed 3ph power systems in college (dont really remember much of the class) i can wire a home no problem. but this is a bit out of my wheel house. thehelp is appreciated

 

[ThePanzerFuhrer]

That’s would be what your looking for. Sizing looks about right also. That transformer has the primary 480 and secondary 240. That’s a step down transformer. It should work just fine in reverse boosting it to 480v.

I love 480 because of the low amperage. A 12-4 wire would be big enough to run that guy as long as the run isn’t too long.

Just as a warning 480 is not something to fuck around with. If it shorts out it sounds like a shot gun firing. Double check the power is off before you start tinkering in the box. Pick up a non contact voltage detector pen to verify.

 

[Lilyota]

I would be looking at the name plate on the motor.

Most of the time those motors are dual voltage.

 

[ThePanzerFuhrer]

I would be looking at the name plate on the motor.

Most of the time those motors are dual voltage.

It’s the control that gets dicey. Changing taps on all the transformers to get the correct control voltages. On the old stuff I like to keep it the way it was.

 

[Lilyota]

It’s the control that gets dicey. Changing taps on all the transformers to get the correct control voltages. On the old stuff I like to keep it the way it was.

I got around that on my lathe by removing the transformer and just using a cord and plugging it in at the wall.

It might seem janky but I have been doing controls a long time and would just rather eliminate the transformer. It takes a failure point out of the process.

All that aside changing out the input voltage on the transformer isn't a big deal.

 

[SomeGuyFromOlympia]

i dont have any place local that i can source parts from so its all going to be ordered online...

when first looking it up, i saw people saying step it up then phase convert, others say the opposite. wanting easy i looked up a plug and play type set up and it was around $5k, at that cost i'll pass on the press brake (i've been wanting to build one for years, but buying a real one would be ideal). i can see $2k plus think

then there is the sizing. clac i used says 460v 3ph @ 13a (90%eff. .9powerfactor?)= 11.25hp

i'm hoping something like this is big enough, seems they get allot more expensive going bigger:

American Rotary Phase Converter AR20 - 20HP | Start up to a 10Hp | FREE SHIPPING | eBay

Phase Converter AR20 - 20 HP Pro Series. Best for: 10 HP General Purpose, motor loads, combination loads, light to moderate loads. For a 20HP load, see ourAR40. Total motor run: 20HP. Single motor start: 10HP.

www.ebay.com

and then i haven't even gone into sizing the transformer, but maybe something like this?

DONGAN 63-6230SH General Purpose Transformer, 30 kVa 480V, 208Y/120V | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for DONGAN 63-6230SH General Purpose Transformer, 30 kVa 480V, 208Y/120V at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

does this seem like a working combo?

i'm not a complete retard, i passed 3ph power systems in college (dont really remember much of the class) i can wire a home no problem. but this is a bit out of my wheel house. thehelp is appreciated

Take all the information you have here
Call the phone number in the web page
Ask all the questions
they will actually know how the best way to go about it will be
they might have a better solution to get there even

 

[Dethmachinefab]

Should be able to wire it for low voltage, and change transformer taps for the control side or like said above power the controls separately.

This is a hydraulic/mechanical hybrid machine, it's not like the stored energy in a regular flywheel brake. It's going need full power available to work at max capacity.

Id want to run it from a vfd, at over 10hp your getting into expensive stuff but it's the best way to do it. $1500 for a gs4 2025 from automation direct.

 

[bgaidan]

Rotary and transformer is the right way to go. And you'll now have a rotary that can power anything else you decide to buy.

I've run in to a bunch of 460 stuff lately that could not be dropped down to 230 so I wouldn't count on that unless you actually see it on the motor plate.

I assume the actuation on those relies on contactors or something so it's probably not going to be a good idea trying to run it off a VFD.

 

[Dethmachinefab]

Rotary and transformer is the right way to go. And you'll now have a rotary that can power anything else you decide to buy.

I've run in to a bunch of 460 stuff lately that could not be dropped down to 230 so I wouldn't count on that unless you actually see it on the motor plate.

I assume the actuation on those relies on contactors or something so it's probably not going to be a good idea trying to run it off a VFD.

Vfd only powers the motor. All controls are separate and 115v. So instead of the start button operating a contactor, it tells the vfd come on. The ram height motor if equipped can be run off the same vfd and controlled by its contactor because the main will be running.

 

[bgaidan]

Vfd only powers the motor. All controls are separate and 115v. So instead of the start button operating a contactor, it tells the vfd come on. The ram height motor if equipped can be run off the same vfd and controlled by its contactor because the main will be running.

Didn't realize the controls were "low" voltage. Definitively makes things easier. I've heard mixed things, generally negative, about running multiple motors off a single vfd and definitely not using relays or contactors after the vfd. Ideally the VFD needs to be doing the starting and a sudden load (i.e. a second motor starting) can fry them. Maybe if you majorly oversized the VFD....

 

[Dethmachinefab]

Didn't realize the controls were "low" voltage. Definitively makes things easier. I've heard mixed things, generally negative, about running multiple motors off a single vfd and definitely not using relays or contactors after the vfd. Ideally the VFD needs to be doing the starting and a sudden load (i.e. a second motor starting) can fry them. Maybe if you majorly oversized the VFD....

You certainly don't want anything switched post vfd if it was just a single motor. But when it's got a 10hp motor spooled up running the little 1/2hp adjustment motor coming on and off makes no difference. It would be "correct" to have a second vfd for that, but it works fine on my smaller brakes.

 

[Lilyota]

I way over sized my rotary.


I also had access to random lengths of of SJO cord seeing as I work at a mine.

I think I paid 1900 for my converter out of Oregon.

30 HP converter

 

[arse_sidewards]

If you want a phase converter above 10hp build your own.

Used motors basically stop going up in price after 10hp because basically nobody who needs a 15+hp motor wants a used motor on their expensive industrial process equipment (whereas it's fine for a VFD idler). You need like $100-$200 of electrical doodads to make it work depending on how fancy you want to make it (push button start/stop, etc). Wiring diagrams are readily availible. Once you read enough build threads and watch enough videos you'll understand that there's basically just a start circuit and a few basic ways to control that circuit.

 

[bgaidan]

If you want a phase converter above 10hp build your own.

Used motors basically stop going up in price after 10hp because basically nobody who needs a 15+hp motor wants a used motor on their expensive industrial process equipment (whereas it's fine for a VFD idler). You need like $100-$200 of electrical doodads to make it work depending on how fancy you want to make it (push button start/stop, etc). Wiring diagrams are readily availible. Once you read enough build threads and watch enough videos you'll understand that there's basically just a start circuit and a few basic ways to control that circuit.

This is the route I'm going. Local yard charges like $5-8/hp for surplus motors. They always have 15hp ones but I've been holding out for a 20 or 25. There's another yard that I need to check on that is usually cheaper and it's just a matter of hitting them one then have something in stock.

Still need to do some reading, but from what I gather it's just a handful of capacitors and a couple contactors.

 

[arse_sidewards]

Still need to do some reading, but from what I gather it's just a handful of capacitors and a couple contactors.

Handful of caps, some relays (not sure if that's the correct AC name for them.

Yup. I'm holding out for a 25-30. Gonna stick the electronics inside in an enclosure and stick the motor itself outside under a shelter so I don't have to listen to it. Is it overkill for a 10hp mill and 15hp lathe? Sure. But I don't don't wanna smoke shit on the one day I invite buddies over and we work our asses off.

 

[shaggy10000]

I am in the middle of the exact same thing. I have a wysong 5ft brake that's wired 440. I contacted the MFG for schematics. Not only did they provide me with what they had, they also gave me a breakdown over email of what exactly i needed to switch over to make it run 220. Mine is not bad to convert otherwise i would have run a transformer.

The other story. I cannot stress this enough to not go with Phoenix phase converters. Someone gifted me one for my Bday a couple months back from them and it has been a disaster. Customer service was on a level of stupid that i cannot even put into words. It ended up that this unit supplies 110V to each leg with the unit off. Other than that it works I guess. Dealing with them eventually got heated so i asked about a return policy. I was then given the run around. Since I pissed them off the return policy was no longer valid. Ok, fine Fuck you then.
that's when the owner started calling my girl. (the one who bought it for me). He was harassing her trying to tell her i was an asshole. She may already know that but i ended up having to threaten to call the cops on him. Even after the threat, he wouldn't let it go and called and sent 1 more additional text to her. Fucking prick
In short ill be on my way to American rotary this weekend to get a good one.

 

[tracyb]

well i got more homework to do. i'll definitley update if i bring this brake home.

i really do need to go 3ph to open up more options for tooling and the work i do.


also while i might get this one, i'm really wanting a bigger brake. would really like something around 8' and 100ton. but here in the northwest i they dont come up often.

 

[arse_sidewards]

also while i might get this one, i'm really wanting a bigger brake. would really like something around 8' and 100ton. but here in the northwest i they dont come up often.

Let me know if you see something local to me. I've been trying to come up with a justification for a cross country vacation/road trip. Preferably before my dad get too old go to along for the ride.

I'm not joking.

 

[Dethmachinefab]

Let me know if you see something local to me. I've been trying to come up with a justification for a cross country vacation/road trip. Preferably before my dad get too old go to along for the ride.

I'm not joking.

What are you hauling a 100t brake cross country with?

 

[bgaidan]

Handful of caps, some relays (not sure if that's the correct AC name for them.

Yup. I'm holding out for a 25-30. Gonna stick the electronics inside in an enclosure and stick the motor itself outside under a shelter so I don't have to listen to it. Is it overkill for a 10hp mill and 15hp lathe? Sure. But I don't don't wanna smoke shit on the one day I invite buddies over and we work our asses off.

If you plan to push that 15hp lathe to its full potential, 25hp would about about right for it. It's seem most common to size the RPC motor to 1.5x the max load for medium to heavy loads. Worst case it'd let you run the lathe and mill at the same time....you'll just need a couple extra hands.


In my case, I'm hoping to stumble in to a CNC turning center whenever the right deal pops up. My current CNC knee mill is single phase on the servo drives and the spindle motor is run off a VFD. Really no benefit to running it off 3phase other than maybe getting a little more HP out of the spindle....but then I'd have to drop in an actual 3p VFD too.

 

[arse_sidewards]

If you plan to push that 15hp lathe to its full potential, 25hp would about about right for it. It's seem most common to size the RPC motor to 1.5x the max load for medium to heavy loads. Worst case it'd let you run the lathe and mill at the same time....you'll just need a couple extra hands.

That's exactly my line of thinking.

 

[arse_sidewards]

What are you hauling a 100t brake cross country with?

That's for me to know and you to find out.
I need an excuse to buy a clapped out MDT

 

[Dethmachinefab]

That's for me to know and you to find out.
I need an excuse to buy a clapped out MDT

Maybe you can pick up that milling vise off the island when you pass by.

 

[TTMotorsports]

I worked in a shop that didn't have 3 phase power and they had a similar press brake and when I asked them about 3 phase they said they just bought a 220v single phase motor and swapped it out. Was 100x easier than getting a phase converter. So i would look into that as well. Also i had a 20" disc sander that was 480V 3 phase and I only have 240V 3 phase BUT i was able to rewire the motor on the side box thingy to 240V and it worked perfect after that.

 

[GLTHFJ60]

220v single phase motors are expensive when they get large. Like more expensive than a decent phase converter.

Based on the dataplate, the 460v motor in there is ~12hp. Just googling around, a 15hp single phase motor is ~$1500, not to mention how many amps it takes to run (service demands, wire size, etc.)

Leeson 851150.00 General Purpose Motors, TEFC, 15 HP, 1 Ph, 60 Hz, 208-230 V, 1765 RPM, 256TZ

Shop Leeson 851150.00 / 691720992128 and trust MRO to be your reliable Leeson supplier to experience the difference that quality and expertise can make. Trusted since 1898. Fast, Free Shipping.

www.mrosupply.com

 

[bgaidan]

220v single phase motors are expensive when they get large. Like more expensive than a decent phase converter.

Based on the dataplate, the 460v motor in there is ~12hp. Just googling around, a 15hp single phase motor is ~$1500, not to mention how many amps it takes to run (service demands, wire size, etc.)

Leeson 851150.00 General Purpose Motors, TEFC, 15 HP, 1 Ph, 60 Hz, 208-230 V, 1765 RPM, 256TZ

Shop Leeson 851150.00 / 691720992128 and trust MRO to be your reliable Leeson supplier to experience the difference that quality and expertise can make. Trusted since 1898. Fast, Free Shipping.

www.mrosupply.com

15hp is 15hp so it's still going to require the same amperage feed whether it's straight single phase or single to a VFD. I believe the rule of thumb on a single phase VFD is to size the feed wire for 125% of the motor size....so the feed to the 15hp VFD should technically be sized for a 70a circuit.


I'm in the process of setting up a 7.5 hp VFD for my compressor and another 3hp for my lathe and/or mill. I'm not doing the 125% thing, but I'm probably right at 100% of the motor rating on the compressor, mostly because the terminals on the VFD aren't really sized for big enough wire. I need to pick up a clamp meter to see what kind of load actually ends up on the feed when they're running somewhat fully loaded.

 

[Bggrnchvy]

Transformer then VFD will get you more balanced power at the tool.

Most motors can be rewired for 240/208 though so you could maybe eliminate the step up transformer. The only issue becomes wire gauge and motor starter or protection increase. Well, that and the control voltage step down transformer, but those are cheap. Depending on the wattage rating often under $50.

Depending on the control method, you could even remove the control transformer and run it off 110vac direct and have a separate 240v 1ph feed to a drive and maybe rewire the drive motor to 240v 3ph and just run a double sized VFD (pricey though, 13.2FLA @ 460v is probably a 10hp so you need a 26a+ rated VFD, probably $1k).

 

[[486]]

I finally got my backup drive going, drew up this diagram years ago and understandably didn't feel like redrawing it
here's how you wire up an RPC
you don't actually need any of the balance capacitors if all you're running is dumb motors and heaters
you can run them if you want but they're always wrong because they need to be changed out to tune for differing loads

this gets you "one button" operation without any sort of pull start bullshit, or a second button for the start cap
keep in mind that you need to push the start button solidly for a half second or so, otherwise the start cap won't do what its supposed to if you just tap it, result is the motor sitting stationary and growling at you until you hit the "stop" button or the breaker pops

It requires two contactors with 240v coils for you to wire it this way, you can adjust the control side feed for whatever voltage coils you've got, its all the same

the input contactor is going to need some very large contacts for the two input lines as these do draw a lot of current what with running a three phase motor off of single phase input power
and the start cap one has multiple contacts bridged because it will arc out the contacts over time from breaking the capacitor from the circuit