Full hydro pulling

[ThePanzerFuhrer]

So I put the front of the truck on jack stands. Started the engine and ran it up to 1800. That’s about cruising speed. No drift on the tires. I could turn the tires a few degrees and let go of the wheel and still no drift. I went out side and grabbed the tire. I could make it turn in either direction, but it is not easy. I surprised that caster can straighten it out so easy.

Anyways, I think this would all but rule out a hydraulic problem.

No it won’t drift without moving. The jackstand deal is a no go. You method would suggest I would have to turn the wheel to stay straight while not moving with my loaders. It only does it while driving down the road.

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

My guess is that you have a mechanical issue that is causing the vehicle to pull to one side.
Since you already tried the wheels in the air engine running and no movement occurred it is less likely to be a hydraulic issue.
Not all roads crown on the center divide. Some will crown across both lanes. Find a road that is visibly crowned both sides equally and drive on the opposite side to see if the pull is consistent on both sides of the road.
Measure front the centerline of hub to hub on each side and confirm that the vehicle axles are square.
If you get on a straight run and pull the power steering belt. You can drive with manual input only. This might add some insight without a pump pressuring the system.

 

[WaterH]

No it won’t drift without moving. The jackstand deal is a no go. You method would suggest I would have to turn the wheel to stay straight while not moving with my loaders. It only does it while driving down the road.

I’m not following you. If it does it while driving, it Could be all sorts of stuff, but on stands I remove all the outside influences. I realize that driving it may make it easier to drift, but on stands it has to be pretty easy for a leaky valve to turn them. I suppose I could unbolt the links so ram has nothing to push.

My guess is that you have a mechanical issue that is causing the vehicle to pull to one side.
Since you already tried the wheels in the air engine running and no movement occurred it is less likely to be a hydraulic issue.
Not all roads crown on the center divide. Some will crown across both lanes. Find a road that is visibly crowned both sides equally and drive on the opposite side to see if the pull is consistent on both sides of the road.
Measure front the centerline of hub to hub on each side and confirm that the vehicle axles are square.
If you get on a straight run and pull the power steering belt. You can drive with manual input only. This might add some insight without a pump pressuring the system.

I have driven on the wrong side of the road. When I did that test, it seemed to go straight (er), but it should have drift left, no? I have measured from random spots on both axles and it would appear to be square. To clarify, I would pick a bolt on the left rear caliper and measure to the left front link mount. Then compare to the same two spots on the right. Its kind of difficult to do by my self, but I think they are with in 1/16”. Do you think that could make the difference? I may do both of these tests more accurately.

I’ve come up with another idea. Do you think if one rear tire was bigger, it would push harder and steer? Kind of hard to measure, but I could swap the rear tires. (Not that I feel like swapping them bitches)

 

[WaterH]

Did the steering wheel turn when you turned the tired by hand?

Also, any chance you have a cross port pressure relief valve?

I wasn’t looking at the steering wheel. No cross port valve. I just got a one way check valve to protect the pump. After I get that installed, I will be looking in to the CPR valve.

 

[ThePanzerFuhrer]

My guess is the road forces are causing the orbit to leak oil back to tank and you need to turn the wheel to compensate for the lost oil. That’s what happens in my loaders.

 

[WaterH]

My guess is the road forces are causing the orbit to leak oil back to tank and you need to turn the wheel to compensate for the lost oil. That’s what happens in my loaders.

I suppose I can’t rule that out. On a “load reactive” orbital, I would think there’s not really pressure when straight. Maybe I don’t understand them completely. How often do you get bad orbitals brand new?

 

[ThePanzerFuhrer]

I suppose I can’t rule that out. On a “load reactive” orbital, I would think there’s not really pressure when straight. Maybe I don’t understand them completely. How often do you get bad orbitals brand new?

All mine are locked when not moving with none of that road feel valving. It takes like 10,000 hours of use to wear a loader orbital out.

Who knows it could be gumbo mudders are creating a too large of hyd force with the small cylinder for the load reactive stuff to work correctly.

 

[CarterKraft]

I think its a fools errand to try and make a orbital drive like a mechanical system.
It only takes a meniscal leak at either end to cause this and in a system as sensitive as this with wide mushy tires on a crowned road I would focus on converting a JR4X type system.

DE ram with steering box AKA 4500 class steering migration

Going to try to resurrect some tech as it’s relevance has come up again. Lots has changed since I started doing this 7 years ago. I’ve stopped trying to help people build boxes through text and email. My brother and I can build boxes all day and not have problems. Most everyone I’ve tried to...

irate4x4.com

 

[TimJus]

you can test leaky system by turning wheels to lock and them turn with small amount of turning force. if wheel keeps walking your ram leaks or steering valve has sloppy tolerances.

 

[gt1guy]

I have driven on the wrong side of the road. When I did that test, it seemed to go straight (er), but it should have drift left, no? I have measured from random spots on both axles and it would appear to be square. To clarify, I would pick a bolt on the left rear caliper and measure to the left front link mount. Then compare to the same two spots on the right. Its kind of difficult to do by my self, but I think they are with in 1/16”. Do you think that could make the difference? I may do both of these tests more accurately.

I’ve come up with another idea. Do you think if one rear tire was bigger, it would push harder and steer? Kind of hard to measure, but I could swap the rear tires. (Not that I feel like swapping them bitches)

If one tire is running at a larger diameter than the other, it can absolutely want to steer the vehicle. It's called tire stagger. Works on the front or the rear. Oval track cars do it all the time on pavement and dirt. It's a tuning tool.

If it's pulling to the left and you're always turning right, put a few extra pounds in the left front tire. See what happens.


If you want to measure so see if the axles are square, you probably want to measure diagonally. LF-RR, RF-LR. That's going to tell you if you have a square..........or a parallelogram.

 

[WaterH]

If one tire is running at a larger diameter than the other, it can absolutely want to steer the vehicle. It's called tire stagger. Works on the front or the rear. Oval track cars do it all the time on pavement and dirt. It's a tuning tool.

If it's pulling to the left and you're always turning right, put a few extra pounds in the left front tire. See what happens.


If you want to measure so see if the axles are square, you probably want to measure diagonally. LF-RR, RF-LR. That's going to tell you if you have a square..........or a parallelogram.

Why in the front tire? I don’t have it in 4 wheel drive, so they can turn at different speeds. But the rear has a locker in it. I don’t believe the locker can cause this on a straight road, but grabbing straws.

I have tried the cross cross measure and as best as I can tell, it appears square. Im not sure a parallelogram would cause this though. Seems like it would just crab.

 

[gt1guy]

Why in the front tire? I don’t have it in 4 wheel drive, so they can turn at different speeds. But the rear has a locker in it. I don’t believe the locker can cause this on a straight road, but grabbing straws.

I have tried the cross cross measure and as best as I can tell, it appears square. Im not sure a parallelogram would cause this though. Seems like it would just crab.

I'm not a tire stagger expert, I just know it's a thing, it works and it does make a difference. Figured it would be a pretty simple test.

 

[Lilyota]

Why in the front tire? I don’t have it in 4 wheel drive, so they can turn at different speeds. But the rear has a locker in it. I don’t believe the locker can cause this on a straight road, but grabbing straws.

I have tried the cross cross measure and as best as I can tell, it appears square. Im not sure a parallelogram would cause this though. Seems like it would just crab.

Hes sayin measure the diameter of the front tires. we used to do this on the late models after laps'...Hell all the time really.


Tires change constantly.

 

[WaterH]

Hes sayin measure the diameter of the front tires. we used to do this on the late models after laps'...Hell all the time really.


Tires change constantly.

If One front tire is smaller, it just turns faster. But if you had a spool, on the rear and a tire was smaller, it would cause drift. With a locker, I doubt it.

 

[Lilyota]

If One front tire is smaller, it just turns faster. But if you had a spool, on the rear and a tire was smaller, it would cause drift. With a locker, I doubt it.

Nope sorry.


If you have two different size tires on the front of anything it will pull or push....Even in 2WD.

 

[Lilyota]

And hell...If one tire was to big in the rear it will cause a rig to steer away from the big tire.


The best example I can give is Sprint Cars.

 

[Provience]

I wasn’t looking at the steering wheel. No cross port valve. I just got a one way check valve to protect the pump. After I get that installed, I will be looking in to the CPR valve.

After much discussion and thought previously, the cross port relief valve is essentially a useless addition.

relief pressure high enough to prevent system shock won't be low enough to not break knuckles/rod ends. relief pressure low enough to save those cheap consumable parts will be frustrating as the tires won't turn when bound up

 

[Provience]

I think its a fools errand to try and make a orbital drive like a mechanical system.
It only takes a meniscal leak at either end to cause this and in a system as sensitive as this with wide mushy tires on a crowned road I would focus on converting a JR4X type system.

DE ram with steering box AKA 4500 class steering migration

Going to try to resurrect some tech as it’s relevance has come up again. Lots has changed since I started doing this 7 years ago. I’ve stopped trying to help people build boxes through text and email. My brother and I can build boxes all day and not have problems. Most everyone I’ve tried to...

irate4x4.com

personally, i'd just live with it and correct as required, make note if it gets worse.

but it's just a for fun thing anyways

 

[Im4yotas]

After much discussion and thought previously, the cross port relief valve is essentially a useless addition.

relief pressure high enough to prevent system shock won't be low enough to not break knuckles/rod ends. relief pressure low enough to save those cheap consumable parts will be frustrating as the tires won't turn when bound up

I was not suggesting to add a cross port relief. But if he had one and there was a little leak in one side it would cause this issue

 

[Im4yotas]

If it was an alignment issue of any kind, he would just have to hold the wheel with a little extra pressure to 1 direction. But the fact that he continually has to slowly turn more and more says it is a fluid leak (at least in my brain...).

Don't get hung up on the orbital or anything else being "bad" because it could easily be a tiny piece of debris holding some little valve open.

If it were me, I would disassemble, clean and inspect the orbital and flush the whole system.

 

[ThePanzerFuhrer]

If it was an alignment issue of any kind, he would just have to hold the wheel with a little extra pressure to 1 direction. But the fact that he continually has to slowly turn more and more says it is a fluid leak (at least in my brain...).

Don't get hung up on the orbital or anything else being "bad" because it could easily be a tiny piece of debris holding some little valve open.

If it were me, I would disassemble, clean and inspect the orbital and flush the whole system.

That’s just it. Drove a loader about 8 miles today down the road and made a note of the steering wheel. Only turned 1/8 of a turn during the whole trip between the start and finish.

I’m leaning towards too large of tire size to hydraulic cylinder size, and that’s ****ing with the road sensing stuff. I would bet it would get better with a larger diameter hydraulic cylinder and a larger displacement orbital. Which would reduce the spikes from the road forces.

This is just gut feeling I could be completely wrong.

 

[WaterH]

If it was an alignment issue of any kind, he would just have to hold the wheel with a little extra pressure to 1 direction. But the fact that he continually has to slowly turn more and more says it is a fluid leak (at least in my brain...).

Don't get hung up on the orbital or anything else being "bad" because it could easily be a tiny piece of debris holding some little valve open.

If it were me, I would disassemble, clean and inspect the orbital and flush the whole system.

So today I did a good test of the crowned road theory. I found a long relatively straight road and drove down one side. The pull was as normal. Than I turned around and drove the other way on the wrong side of the road. (So I was driving the same exact road) There was a giant difference. It drives nearly perfect. I would not have thought the crown makes that much difference. The road doesn’t really look that crowned.

The next thing I did was drive down the center of a dirt road. (No crown) It had a slight pull to the right. Not really a big deal. If I could just get the pull to the left, it would be great.

 

[WaterH]

That’s just it. Drove a loader about 8 miles today down the road and made a note of the steering wheel. Only turned 1/8 of a turn during the whole trip between the start and finish.

I’m leaning towards too large of tire size to hydraulic cylinder size, and that’s ****ing with the road sensing stuff. I would bet it would get better with a larger diameter hydraulic cylinder and a larger displacement orbital. Which would reduce the spikes from the road forces.

This is just gut feeling I could be completely wrong.

I won’t say your wrong until I fix it, but I really feel you can’t compare a “load reactive” to a “non load reactive“. As I understand it, when you stop steering, your Tires are locked. It doesn’t matter if you have a tremendous force trying to pull your cylinder, it’s not going to move. On mine, when I stop turning, the cylinder is not even trying to hold it.

As far as cylinder size, I have the recommended size for 46” tires. It has tons of power. I can put the tire side against a tree and turn the wheel and the truck slides sideways.

Honestly, if I can’t solve this, I might go to a non reactive system. I know everybody says ”it won’t return to center”. I don’t really see that as a big problem. When I’m driving anything, I never find my self letting go of the wheel after a turn. (To let it go back to center.) I steer into the turn and I steer back out. I once had a truck with a worn out steering box. I turned the sector shaft till I had no return to center. I drove that for a week till I got a new box. It was a pain because it was so tight in a turn, but still it wasn’t that big a deal.

 

[ParadisePWoffrd]

I know that I am bumping an old thread, but did you ever try anything else? Did you try inflating the FR tire more than the FL to see if that made a difference?

 

[WaterH]

I know that I am bumping an old thread, but did you ever try anything else? Did you try inflating the FR tire more than the FL to see if that made a difference?

I changed the orbital to a non reactive one. This eliminated the problem. Of course, I don’t know if the orbital actually fixed it or it just completely hid it. You can’t feel a non reactive pulling even if the brake was locked up. In any case, the more I drive it, the more I like it. I still have some vibration because of tire balance, but even that seems to be fading. (Maybe I’m just accepting more)