Brake/Trans/Fuel Line Plumbing & Parts Selection

[desertPOS]

Needing to plumb complete brake system, fuel and trans cooler lines for the current build I've been working on, and thought it'd be worth posting some of my thoughts and questions in hopes of extracting info from the hive mind here But also maybe make a good resourceful thread at the same time...

Project Parameters:
• Trail rig that will see street driving
• Hydroboost brakes with discs f&r
• Nice build that I'd like to see still working well 20 or 30 years from now without a ton of maintenance

I've been gearing up to do all stainless lines for everything and make it all super clean and look really simple and nice - just need to make a tools list for bending/flaring tools I need, tube straightener, deburrer, all fittings and lines, adapters, mounting tabs, etc. Once I have all that delivered, I'll spend a lot of time bending and flaring and building this stuff out.

Now that I'm listing this stuff out and doing a bit of research, I'm wondering why I don't just use soft steel braided lines for EVERYTHING and save a ton of $ and time. Some older threads that mention this:

1 ton axle/brakes Brake line size?

www.pirate4x4.com

Teflon/Braided brakelines throughout a buggy?

www.pirate4x4.com

Based on that info, I'm thinking soft lines are a no brainer. What's the downside to eliminating hardline? Thinking about long term resilience, fire/heat resistence, brake performance, as well as aesthetics. Why does the factory use hardline instead of softline?

Other questions I've got to answer in terms of plumbing:

Brakes:
• 1/4" line from master to split on each axle, or just 3/16" for everything. Based on the above linked threads it seems as though 3/16" or -3 would be fine for all. Although Chevy did 1/4" then 3/16" after the line T, at least on the rear axle
• Residual valve needed on rear only, or front and rear? Which residual valve is best - 2 lbs, 4 lbs, 6 lbs?
• Looking at a proportioning valve for rear brakes like this:

Wilwood Disc Brakes 260-10922 Wilwood Brake Proportioning Valves | Summit Racing

Free Shipping - Wilwood Brake Proportioning Valves with qualifying orders of $109. Shop Brake Proportioning Valves and Distribution Blocks at Summit Racing.

www.summitracing.com

And thinking I'll mount it on the firewall right next to the master cylinder in the engine bay, so it can be adjusted without having to crawl under the vehicle. Thought about putting on the dash, but I like the idea of keeping all fluids out of the passenger compartment
• Order all parts through G&J Aircraft

Fuel:
• Pump(s) tbd, internal or external tbd, has Holley EFI on BBC 454 with aftermarket heads/cams
• Safety Aspect of hardline vs. soft?
• Pressure line to EFI, and return line to tank. One long softline for each without a bunch of connections seems ideal

Transmission Cooler:
• TH350 trans with cooler up in front of the radiator
• This one's kind of a no-brainer I think for soft lines, or maybe even make my own lines like I did for the steering/hydroboost plumbing

Looking at this all together because I'd like to lay out all the lines together cleanly, as well as order all parts needed in one shot. WWIBB do? I think stainless would be awesome, but I also know I'd spend a ton of time on it and the tools would cost more.

Pics of the steering/hydroboost plumbing, which is all that's been plumbed on this rig so far. Would like to maintain the same simplicity/cleanliness with the rest of it, as well as easy to service if needed.

 

[desertPOS]

Another good thread and I left out of the original post:

Brake Line / Flares / Threads

I’m running hardline on the links and flexible at the pivot points. Flexible lines are AN female -3 which is 3/8-24 thread. I can make or buy 3/16 hardline with a bubble flare which looks a lot like the adapter I had originally purchased. The adapter coverts inverted flare to a male AN...

irate4x4.com

 

[gozuki]

One of the things I didn't consider when I went all copper over steel on the hard line, is that it will rust up almost orange really quickly.

 

[desertPOS]

One of the things I didn't consider when I went all copper over steel on the hard line, is that it will rust up almost orange really quickly.

Definitely don’t want that - were they 100% copper or copper blended with something else?

I was actually looking forward to doing all stainless lines, I just know it will be extremely time consuming to make clean…

 

[arse_sidewards]

were they 100% copper or copper blended with something else?

well copper and nickel corrode green so....

 

[Bebop]

I'm not against soft lines (a lot of my buggy is ran through soft lines), but no way in hell they will last 20 to 30 years.

Soft lines like that will get brittle and crack after 3/4 years. I'm replacing the ones in my buggy after 3 years.

I am NOT a fan of braided lines as you cannot inspect the rubber lines inside. And they crack and rot just the same.

Also, in the picture above, I am not a fan of your hose routing. These lines will get blasted with hot air from the fans and this is not good for them.

The high pressure lines don't care, but I see they are the field service style and I've had super bad luck with them. Even started a fire on my buggy after a pressure spike and one of them blew up.

As far as brakes, with a hydroboost you will not be able to tell the difference between hard and soft lines by the pedal feel and PTFE lines are durable and strong. Still, hard lines are better, will last longer. Do 3/16 lines everywhere, no need for 1/4. You don't need residual pressure valves on a master that was built for discs. Proportionning valve in the rear would help if you're driving on the street, in 2WD.

As far as fuel, I would go internal pump if you can. Much much better life span / cooling for the pump.

If you want durability, I would do as much stainless steel hard line as you can, everywhere.
Anything soft that gets blasted with heat should get wrapped in firesleeve and still inspected periodically (once a year).

 

[desertPOS]

well copper and nickel corrode green so....

Well copper also doesn't rust, so that's what I was asking about a blend. I think maybe he was referring to steel lines rusting, although that's not how his post was worded. Maybe he'll clarify...

I'm not against soft lines (a lot of my buggy is ran through soft lines), but no way in hell they will last 20 to 30 years.

Soft lines like that will get brittle and crack after 3/4 years. I'm replacing the ones in my buggy after 3 years.

I am NOT a fan of braided lines as you cannot inspect the rubber lines inside. And they crack and rot just the same.

Also, in the picture above, I am not a fan of your hose routing. These lines will get blasted with hot air from the fans and this is not good for them.

The high pressure lines don't care, but I see they are the field service style and I've had super bad luck with them. Even started a fire on my buggy after a pressure spike and one of them blew up.

As far as brakes, with a hydroboost you will not be able to tell the difference between hard and soft lines by the pedal feel and PTFE lines are durable and strong. Still, hard lines are better, will last longer. Do 3/16 lines everywhere, no need for 1/4. You don't need residual pressure valves on a master that was built for discs. Proportionning valve in the rear would help if you're driving on the street, in 2WD.

As far as fuel, I would go internal pump if you can. Much much better life span / cooling for the pump.

If you want durability, I would do as much stainless steel hard line as you can, everywhere.
Anything soft that gets blasted with heat should get wrapped in firesleeve and still inspected periodically (once a year).

20-30 years is probably pushing it - maybe I should have said 10-15. Just trying to build something that doesn't need to be serviced and reworked all the time is the overall gist of what I was getting at. I'd be interested to know what lines you are replacing after only 3 years. Were they sitting out in the sun that whole time? I've got steel braided brake lines in use on my truck that are 10+ years old and no issues to speak of, and now that I'm thinking about it, my dd is 18 years old and never had any of the lines replaced on it. You made some really good points, but I think if you're only getting 3 years out of your lines, that seems like there must be some other issue

All the steering lines I got through Howe and set up that whole system based on pointers I got from them. Although I'm going to ventilate it as much as possible, I picture everything in the engine bay being pretty warm all the time. I didn't consider the direct heat coming through the radiator as an issue for the lines, but that seems like a good point. I am not opposed to fire sleeving lines, or maybe even making a sheetmetal heat shield for those lines right behind the radiator so they're not getting hit with direct heat. I'll certainly look into that.

Only other thing I'll add, since we're talking about the steering lines I set up - I have safety bands to add to all connections that I unfortunately still need to add in there. But they will all be safety banded, and we'll see how it works once it's being used and go from there...

Brakes: when you are referring to PTFE lines, are you talking about the steel braided lines with the clear coating outside of the steel braid, or something else?

 

[Bebop]

You cannot inspect the rubber inside the braided lines. How can you know they are fine ?
The fact they don't leak doesn't mean anything.
Imagine you have a fuel pressure regulator malfunction and you dead head your fuel pump. A brand new hose is rated for 200ish PSI, but a 10 year old one will let go a lot sooner.

I replace my lines as a precaution measure. By manipulating them, I feel like the rubber isn't as flexible, and that's good enough for me. My rig sits in the shop most of the time.

As far as safety bands, I have no idea what these are. I was talking about the high pressure field service lines, Parker series 20/23 style. They will handle the pressure but their burst rating has to be lower than the regular crimped stuff. I have had issues with them and know a few people with similar issues.

Lastly, PTFE lines are soft lines that have an internal line hose made of teflon and are meant to handle a lot more pressure and aggressive/corrosive fluids. They usually require a ferule when you put the hose ends together. The AN3 brake lines you can think of are PTFE lines, but they make them in any sizes. Those are much better, and more expensive.

 

[Norcalpr]

As for brakes, g and J has annealed ss hard lines. I put them on 3 years ago and they still look the same as it did when I installed it. It was a little bit more money but worth it imo. I used 3/16" for my one tons with zero issues. I gave them the lengths and had them flare everything just to cut down on time for my build. All I had to do was bend it and add some clamps.

Hard line is easier to run IMO than a long ass soft line. It stays looking neat. While it's not much, hard lines (even braided) flex and expand in use. The factory uses hard lines because it's quicker to run and doesn't require as much clamping.

I ran a hard line down my upper link and on the axle housing, then just ran soft lines at the heims and the knuckles.

 

[mobil1syn]

after working on an U4 with a lot of stainless, its the way to go if you can swing it. easier to clean, stays where you put it, just all around better.

 

[AKnate]

I'd use NiCopp lines for the brakes. You can get it on a roll or in sticks.

Stainless would work too, if you'd wanting to deal with teh cost and hassle to bend it and all.

Or how about standard hydraulic lines? My firewood processor is almost all rubber lines from the "factory". I think it's poor design vs hard lines, but I guess it's easier and cheaper. It is really hard to keep lines from moving and chaffing though.

 

[FordFascist]

First of all, I wouldn't use stainless unless I was absolutely sure I needed it. It's a bitch to work with.

Here's what I run on all my shit. It hasn't failed me yet. Not a fan of the soft line the whole way thing like they do on the Power Block shows. I think that's ghetto and also lends you to having to replace some giant long ass line if something goes awry. Also hard lines don't melt and dump fluid on hot exhaust.

Brakes

• 3/16 Aluminized steel brake lines for the brakes with mounting points for soft lines
• OEM-style reinforced rubber lines (easier to get spares too)
• SAE 45° inverted double flare
• No residual valve is needed if the master is above the brakes

Hydraulic lines

• 3/8 Aluminized steel hydraulic lines to -6 JIC fittings
• 4000 PSI double reinforced hydraulic hose (most hydraulic shops can swing that easily)

Transmission

• Aluminum hard line to JIC - double flare 37°
• Rubber soft line JIC

Fuel

• Aluminum hard line to JIC (AN) 37° double flare
• Rubber soft lines JIC

 

[Norcalpr]

The annealed ss tubing that g and j has is easy to work with since its annealed. You can bend it by hand, or you can throw really clean bends I it with a handheld bender...

 

[JohnnyJ]

I used 3/16 NiCopp for hard lines on my buggy, and pre-made Kevlar brake lines on the corners and down the links. To reduce fittings my lines are inverted flare on master side and AN leading to axles.

Every other line on the buggy is soft lines.

 

[Oddball]

Ive never attempted a double flare with SS. But, i imagine it being a rough go. Every time I get the bright idea to make a stainless line, I destroy a flare tool to make two flares. It's usually a fuel line, from pump to carb. I find the tool doesn't want to grab the SS. So you clamp it so hard it flattens out the teeth and squishes the tube. I never considered annealing the end. Either way, you will need a pretty fancy tool. I'd go the route of having a shop make you the lengths imo.

 

[Norcalpr]

Ive never attempted a double flare with SS. But, i imagine it being a rough go. Every time I get the bright idea to make a stainless line, I destroy a flare tool to make two flares. It's usually a fuel line, from pump to carb. I find the tool doesn't want to grab the SS. So you clamp it so hard it flattens out the teeth and squishes the tube. I never considered annealing the end. Either way, you will need a pretty fancy tool. I'd go the route of having a shop make you the lengths imo.

If its annealed it's fine. I had to reflare 2 ends because I messed up and gave them the lengths backwards and I doubled flared it with a normal flaring kit from autozone. Was a little tough but not like tool breaking tough...

Although I probably wouldn't want to do a bunch of flares with it

 

[gozuki]

Well copper also doesn't rust, so that's what I was asking about a blend. I think maybe he was referring to steel lines rusting, although that's not how his post was worded. Maybe he'll clarify...

well copper and nickel corrode green so....

It was copper over soft steel, and it corroded like mild steel, orange and flakey in parts. Not green.

 

[gozuki]

It's shitty enough for being outside only like 6 months, that I'm going to strip it all out and redo, maybe annealed SS.

 

[desertPOS]

I was looking at going this route for the flaring - heard good things about it:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01HOXT84Y/?coliid=IIHLW5CDHGUUF&colid=25EJ3YWTQX60H&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

Better writeup on Eastwood's site:

Eastwood Pro Brake Tubing Flaring Tool with 45 and 37 Degree Die Set

Create 45 and 37 Degree flares in 5 sizes of tubing

www.eastwood.com

It's been a while since I was looking at all this stuff, but I was originally looking at getting the flaring tool, some decent benders, tube straighter and good deburring/reaming tool and send it.

To those who have done it, ss tube nuts or mild steel? Issues with galling even thought you used anti seize or no biggie?

Cool that G&J offers annealed tube - will look into that. Who's annealed their own? Just heat up red hot over a purge box, or what?

It's shitty enough for being outside only like 6 months, that I'm going to strip it all out and redo, maybe annealed SS.

Why not just sand it all and paint it?

 

[Bebop]

Rigid flare tool on SS.

 

[Wuz-A-zuk]

I use that Eastwood tool for all my brake work and it works real good even on SS. Very little setup, it's a quick rip of the handle to get a good flair so really should be clamped in a vice and used that way. It's tough if you already ran all the line and are trying to do a flair in the engine bay or somewhere tight. I'd say it's definitely meant to be left in the vise. My only complaint is they give you one flaring die package, I had to go back and drop another $100 for the AN flaring dies.

Two things I haven't seen mentioned or may have missed.
SS tubing should be deburred smoothly inside and out, the better this is done the less chance is splitting the SS on edge when doing the flair.

Also, location, here in the rust belt it's SS or the nickel coated copper stuff people mentioned (holds up pretty well here). Anything else reacts with the road salt or rust out within a few years depending on use/ maintenance/ storage.

 

[desertPOS]

As far as safety bands, I have no idea what these are. I was talking about the high pressure field service lines, Parker series 20/23 style. They will handle the pressure but their burst rating has to be lower than the regular crimped stuff. I have had issues with them and know a few people with similar issues.

I was just talking about the push lock clamps that can be crimped on. I am going to put them on all the high pressure fittings, which I unfortunately didn't do in the first place when I was heat gunning all the lines and installing fittings. Since you mentioned bursting or pressure issues, I was just mentioning that there are no clamps on anything now, but will be before anything is in use...

Looks like that tool can be purchased through Eastwood or Amazon either with or without the AN dies. If purchased without the AN dies, they are sold separately so could always be purchased later. Other than the labels, the one sold on Eastwood looks identical to what's on Amazon, and I'm sure other vendors. Just rebranded chinesium - although every review I've seen on it over the past few years seems largely positive. As such, I've been wanting to pick it up for a while now, just haven't had a specific need for it

I use that Eastwood tool for all my brake work and it works real good even on SS. Very little setup, it's a quick rip of the handle to get a good flair so really should be clamped in a vice and used that way. It's tough if you already ran all the line and are trying to do a flair in the engine bay or somewhere tight. I'd say it's definitely meant to be left in the vise. My only complaint is they give you one flaring die package, I had to go back and drop another $100 for the AN flaring dies.

Two things I haven't seen mentioned or may have missed.
SS tubing should be deburred smoothly inside and out, the better this is done the less chance is splitting the SS on edge when doing the flair.

Also, location, here in the rust belt it's SS or the nickel coated copper stuff people mentioned (holds up pretty well here). Anything else reacts with the road salt or rust out within a few years depending on use/ maintenance/ storage.

Did you use the Eastwood (which looks to be the exact same as what I linked to Amazon as well for a bit cheaper) on annealed ss tube, or was it fine just getting after it without worrying about that?

I mentioned a deburring tool it in my 'tools to buy' list above - just looking at what Eastwood has, the have internal deburring, which just looks like what you'd use to deburr a drilled hole and already have a bunch of those, and external, which might be nice, but also may just be able to do with sandpaper. What was your deburring tool of choice working with ss?

 

[Wuz-A-zuk]

Yes I have that exact one from Eastwood though at the time I bought it the 37° die set was sold separately and they didn't have that deburring tool at that time either. But I bought the flair tool and both their bending tools.

I was using a noga brand deburring tool similar to the Eastwood version but the inserts are super expensive so I find myself using a step drill or larger drill bit (like 1/2") and deburr the inside of the tube and sandpaper/emery cloth for the outside. I found that it flairs best the smoother you make the tube, a nice rounded edge and your fine, as long as you don't have a razor blade sharp cut or burrs hanging I've never had much issue.

Side note (which won't apply to everyone)- I found buying tools for this endeavor much like buying tools for when I did my cage/tube bending. Building a roll cage I went out and bought the bender, software and a notcher, now 8 years later my software hasn't been used in 3-4 years and has been replaced by blue masking tape and my notcher(collects dust in the corner of the shop) hasn't been used since the first cage and has been replaced by a sharpie, cutoff wheel and blending disk (just plain out faster once you've done it enough).

Similar to my brake tool purchases, my deburr device has been replaced by drill bits and step drills and I find myself using the Eastwood plier bender 3 times more than their more expensive 180° bending tool.

Guess my point being, be honest with your skill level and how often you'll use these tools, you may just waste money on them or end up realizing that fancy tool is meant for less capable hands.

Edit: I have never used the Eastwood flairing tool for anything other than 3/16" brake lines in all different types. But I will be trying it out in larger tube (like 3/8" SS) in an upcoming build so I'll report back here with how said tool handles larger SS tube.

 

[Norcalpr]

Also another note when working with ss, don't use a tubing cutter. It will work harden the edge and make cracking easier.

Use a saw, then file it square and deburr...

 

[desertPOS]

Yes I have that exact one from Eastwood

What I meant was with that Eastwood tool, did you use ss tube that was annealed in any way, or was that not necessary?

 

[Wuz-A-zuk]

I've done both annealed and non annealed SS 3/16" brake lines with the east wood tools, I have yet to try any larger but will be in the next few weeks.

I also don't know why people say you can't double flair non annealed SS and should only do 37° flairs. That's simply false and the issue mostly likely comes from people trying to use a $15 flair tool to try and double flair SS.

Another myth- SS lines leak more than others. I don't think people properly take the time to "seat" SS lines. I usually "seat" (just tightening and loosening the fitting) the SS 7-8 times compared to 3-4 for regular lines, especially if the line is going onto say a master cylinder where the fitting has already had an old line stuck to it for years and left an imprint.

 

[Wuz-A-zuk]

Has anyone ran into work hardening issues using the non annealed SS lines in their system?

I was planning on using non annealed SS for my fuel lines on a buggy. Plan was to weld tabs right off the line and bolt to the chassis (somehow). My worry is the vibrations will work harden and crack my fuel lines at the tabs/welds. Any input on this? Anyone weld directly to annealed SS line? Any issues?

 

[gozuki]

Don't do it. Nightmare. The HAZ will (along with vibration) allow the line to crack(best case), or rupture (worst case), right at the tab.

 

[gozuki]

One of the things I didn't consider when I went all copper over steel on the hard line, is that it will rust up almost orange really quickly.

This is what less than 6 months (in a very dry climate) does to copper over mild steel.

 

[Wuz-A-zuk]

Don't do it. Nightmare. The HAZ will (along with vibration) allow the line to crack(best case), or rupture (worst case), right at the tab.

I figured as much, pretty dumb question on my part especially with all the options to hold lines.