At what point does it become moral for a collective to do immoral things?

[Pt_Ranger_v8]

Retard fight!!!!

 

[[486]]

It's easy for a husband and wife to raise their kids free of whatever the state bullshit of the minute is. The odds of pulling that shit off successfully go way down when grandma and grandma who watch CNN all day are in the picture. Historically the stakes have been higher. It's a lot harder to keep a jew under your floor when old racist grandma gonna rat you out.

Grandma that works for the state rather than the family quietly dies of natural causes

I think it's also worth noting that multi-generational families give the state more ability to fuck up and burn institutional credibility before it comes back to fuck them. I know state and state adjacent institutions are bullshit, you know it. Imagine trying to pass those values onto a kid if your wive's parents are in the picture and one of them is a retired teacher and the other's a retired union hack. State legitimacy that could have been burned in a generation burns much more slowly when the old get to help raise the young.

Everything that's bad about family multi-generational families make worse.

I see it the opposite way, having end of life support that doesn't depend on having raised functional children makes the cost of raising unproductive subhumans a lot cheaper

 

[Stuck]

So that makes them moral?

I guess that depends on the society. What gives the right to impose your morality on other cultures

 

[Archer]

You know how senile those boomers are.............

 

[arse_sidewards]

I could just go with the cheap shot of 'then why are you still in the worthless east coast with all the useless uselesses?' but that's really unproductive so I won't.

Because that's where I got a job out of college. The other options were likely to be SF and DC so not exactly an upgrade. Imagine what a dumb piece of shit I'd be if I'd have moved to some red state and just did the dumbass "hurr durr my state red so I good u bad" chest thumping song and dance that they all do without having to think critically.

anyways, this is why I called you a commie, you're ignoring the natural generational capital accumulation that occurs within a functional family
People passing on the shit they built up to their children who have been trained all their lives in the operation of that productive capital.
Time preference continuing beyond a single lifetime.

I think you're greatly over-valuing what capital the typical person amasses in their lifetime and assuming too low a level of baseline economic growth and increased opportunity.

There's generally enough economic growth that if you do well doing whatever it is you do odds are that your kid is going to do better by getting their start on a higher rung than you. Continuing your business is not their best move.

Local junkyard is a great example. Grandpa founded the place in the 30s. His kids ran it until the 2010s. But it put all their kids through college and they could take their degrees and go make more money easier so there was no point for them to continue to own it. Sure, there's cost to cashing out but it costs less than the opportunity cost of having not cashed out.

Most "productive capital" accumulation is going to run its course about like that IMO.

You don't need multi-generational family based social norms for any of this shit though. If the (metaphorical) family farm really is doing so well then your kid isn't gonna fuck off to a homestead out in S. Dakota.

Grandma that works for the state rather than the family quietly dies of natural causes

I don't have a problem with this but I don't think the average person is capable of being such a hard-ass. Takes a certain mental fortitude that most don't got to behave that way.

I see it the opposite way, having end of life support that doesn't depend on having raised functional children makes the cost of raising unproductive subhumans a lot cheaper

Raising functional children is still way the fuck more expensive than just amassing enough surplus to live out your years.

Kind of like how if you just want sex a wife is a poor value for money.

 

[[486]]

Raising functional children is still way the fuck more expensive than just amassing enough surplus to live out your years.

you keep looking at things through a lens where the state intervenes.
Child labor pays.

I don't have a problem with this but I don't think the average person is capable of being such a hard-ass. Takes a certain mental fortitude that most don't got to behave that way.

Those who are capable of resisting state intervention succeed, those that are not fall into the slavery we all find ourselves in now.

I think you're greatly over-valuing what capital the typical person amasses in their lifetime and assuming too low a level of baseline economic growth and increased opportunity.

There's generally enough economic growth that if you do well doing whatever it is you do odds are that your kid is going to do better by getting their start on a higher rung than you. Continuing your business is not their best move.

Local junkyard is a great example. Grandpa founded the place in the 30s. His kids ran it until the 2010s. But it put all their kids through college and they could take their degrees and go make more money easier so there was no point for them to continue to own it. Sure, there's cost to cashing out but it costs less than the opportunity cost of having not cashed out.

Most "productive capital" accumulation is going to run its course about like that IMO.

That's sorta like the old sowell quote about goods appearing as if manna from heaven.
The change in general standards of living over that same generational gap; that is the result of capital accumulation
the state tries to steal that achievement all the time, and the commies have bought it in totality, but you should realize that all the state has, it has stolen from those who produced it; punishing production in the process

Because that's where I got a job out of college. The other options were likely to be SF and DC so not exactly an upgrade. Imagine what a dumb piece of shit I'd be if I'd have moved to some red state and just did the dumbass "hurr durr my state red so I good u bad" chest thumping song and dance that they all do without having to think critically.

 

[JD Mark]

I guess that depends on the society. What gives the right to impose your morality on other cultures

Because there are things that are right and things that are wrong.

How about I rape your wife/GF?

You can't tell me it is wrong because I believe it is moral.

I take your land and all your money.

Don't impose your morality on me and tell me I can't take it.

 

[[486]]

Because there are things that are right and things that are wrong.

How about I rape your wife/GF?

You can't tell me it is wrong because I believe it is moral.

I take your land and all your money.

Don't impose your morality on me and tell me I can't take it.

She has gone outside with her face uncovered, clearly asking for it and it was the will of allah that commanded it

You were being a domestic terrorist for homeschooling your children, civil asset forfeiture is entirely moral and just, don't get in the way of social progress.

 

[grumpy356]

The multigenerational set of social norms you are constantly simping for is frequently far more of a freedom restricting ball and chain on the productive than you're giving it credit for.

Anytime I see someone use the term "simp"..."simping" .. etc. It really does make me want to beat them about the head with a heavy object until their eye pops out, and then skull fuck the eye socket till they die.

How is that for a collective moral opinion?

 

[DannyK]

My brother's in laws are "old school" religious.

I mentioned drinking some beers around the campfire and they looked at me like I'd just told a story about clubbing puppies and bald eagles.

People like that don't make sense. The bible is full of stories about wine.

 

[Animalmother]

Anytime I see someone use the term "simp"..."simping" .. etc. It really does make me want to beat them about the head with a heavy object until their eye pops out, and then skull fuck the eye socket till they die.

How is that for a collective moral opinion?

Make sure to video and post here

 

[arse_sidewards]

Anytime I see someone use the term "simp"..."simping" .. etc. It really does make me want to beat them about the head with a heavy object until their eye pops out, and then skull fuck the eye socket till they die.

How is that for a collective moral opinion?

Grandpa is triggered.

 

[AKnate]

People like that don't make sense. The bible is full of stories about wine.

I don't disagree with maybe viewing a drunk (aka drug abuser) as a drain on society but yeah.

They are Baptists so dunno if anything in that religion teaches that?
The great grand mom (since passed) even viewed coffeffe and soda as sin to consume.

My folks got super weird when I asked about my sister moving in with her fiance at the time... like a month or two before the welding.

"Well no... they aren't married"

 

[JD Mark]

They are Baptists so dunno if anything in that religion teaches that?
The great grand mom (since passed) even viewed coffeffe and soda as sin to consume.

Ah...so they grow "communion grapes".

 

[AKnate]

Ah...so they grow "communion grapes".

My brother is involved in the church and to me its... interesting.

I was visiting and doing the church stuff took importance over spending the day with me. They have morning mass, afternoon, Bible reading, elder study, evening mass. The masses alone are 2+ hrs.
And stuff most evenings for several hours.

I assumed when he asked if I wanted to join them at church it was a 45 min-hr long deal Sunday morning and done, like we had growing up at the Catholic church. Not the whole freaking day.

And it's a suit and tie deal. I went in clean jeans and t shirt (all I had packed... don't even own a suit) and got comments from some older (no filters) people that they don't normally allow "my type".

They did commonion and I was told to sit out because I wasn't enrolled in their blessings club or some weird thing.

 

[Tiha]

I don't disagree with maybe viewing a drunk (aka drug abuser) as a drain on society but yeah.

They are Baptists so dunno if anything in that religion teaches that?
The great grand mom (since passed) even viewed coffeffe and soda as sin to consume.

My folks got super weird when I asked about my sister moving in with her fiance at the time... like a month or two before the welding.

"Well no... they aren't married"

The jews have 613 laws to follow.

You know that is not necessarily a bad thing. Many times churches put rules or laws in place to, what they believe, might help the people.
And of course some do it for nefarious reasons.

Drinking for example. A church says you cannot be a member if you drink alcohol. That is okay, Nothing wrong with that. I hope the intention is to help people live better lives closer to God and honestly it probably would do that.
However that has absolutely nothing to do with salvation or going to heaven. So there is plenty of wiggle room for what rules they would want to impose on their members as long as it doesn't go against the bible in anyway.

Like if the Baptists decided tomorrow that you will only be allowed into church if you were wearing plaid. That is okay, they can do that. But really at the heart of it you are excluding people when hearing the word should be open to anyone and in fact they are commanded to reach those who have not yet heard.
So very thin line a church has to walk to impose such rules and not go against what God has commanded.

Communion is kind of a unique thing and lots of churches do that. The bible warns us that if you don't know why you are taking communion that you could actually be eating and drinking damantion to yourself. The warning is there to show how important it is. It is not there to keep people from taking it. God will not condemn someone that doesn't know better.
It is something you don't just "do it" it is not something you take lightly. It is best if you understand why you are doing it and give it the proper thought and attention it deserves.

The church the wife and I go to now, the pastor every week would say, "you are welcome to take communion if you have been baptized"
That bothered me, so I cornered him one day and said, what does baptism have to do with communion? Thinking I would get the run around and some heretic justification, But rather He said nothing. But it is an easy rule of thumb for those that question whether they should or not.
He now puts a disclaimer in every week lol.

 

[JD Mark]

Many times churches put rules or laws in place to, what they believe, might help the people.
And of course some do it for nefarious reasons.

Drinking for example. A church says you cannot be a member if you drink alcohol. That is okay, Nothing wrong with that. I hope the intention is to help people live better lives closer to God and honestly it probably would do that.
However that has absolutely nothing to do with salvation or going to heaven. So there is plenty of wiggle room for what rules they would want to impose on their members as long as it doesn't go against the bible in anyway.

Like if the Baptists decided tomorrow that you will only be allowed into church if you were wearing plaid. That is okay, they can do that. But really at the heart of it you are excluding people when hearing the word should be open to anyone and in fact they are commanded to reach those who have not yet heard.
So very thin line a church has to walk to impose such rules and not go against what God has commanded.

I seem to recall the Pharisees created an awful lot of laws that were not based on the laws God handed down at Mt Sinai.

Seems like Jesus condemned those laws as well.

Laws or rules not based on God's Word are wrong. No 2 ways about it.

 

[Tiha]

I seem to recall the Pharisees created an awful lot of laws that were not based on the laws God handed down at Mt Sinai.

Seems like Jesus condemned those laws as well.

Laws or rules not based on God's Word are wrong. No 2 ways about it.

You are exactly right.

The Jews even to this day reject Jesus was the Messiah, so they are still living under those laws.