9" vs D60, continued....

[YotaAtieToo]

Realized that we were kinda fucking up the IFS thread, so let's move over here. There is also a thread on the old forum with a lot of good info.

The D60 arb is better than a 9” one. But that’s the only thing better between them. I had a HP 60 in the rear of my rock crawler. I broke the ring & pinion once so I replaced it with a true-hi-9 and went back and completed the climb I broke the 60 on with out hurting my Hi9. When it comes to aftermarket stuff I think the 9”/10” is stuff is the best. If we’re talking strictly junk yard stuff, there isn’t a factory 9” that can touch factory D60 strength.

Slightly anecdotal, no one in the top 20 in U4 is running anything other than drop out 9’s/10’s. The cars consistently winning are all running Gearworks 10’s front and rear. The Campbell cars for instance, 800+ hp and the weak link in the cars isn’t the diffs. Transmissions are what they have problems with most. I know of a handful of people running 6.20’s and 1 person running 6.50’s.

I get all that. Like I said, I did a ton of research on it. Most of what I found was basically the 10" stuff is badass, but a r&p is $1200+ and no one recommends even running them on a trail rig because of wear. How often do those teams pull the 3rds for service? Those running arbs, how much is the bling version?

Like I said, I prefer drop out, hands down. But for a fun/bash/trail buggy I think 60>9" that prorock could run D70 gears and be pretty tough.

I'll admit I didn't look into a true or mega high 9 since it was a rear end that would see some street and trails. Out of the 3 reputable axle builders I talked to, none would give the nod to the 9" for what I wanted, even though all sold 9" parts and axles. Ended up with a 14b, because it's hard not to on a trail rig.

The one thing for certain I found was that opinions vary a lot on the 9" platform, some love it and say it's the only way to go, some think it's way over rated.

 

[Lil'John]

I'm not sure I buy the 'but all the race teams use 9" and 10"' anecdotal example. In a race, if a ring/pinion fails, they need a quick and easy method to swap out gears. A drop out covers that issue... a d60 failing in Ultra 4 is a race killer. So they value ease of repair way over ultimate strength. They also have an open wallet budget that most "normal" folks have no access to. So dropping $1200 on gears is no big deal.

I don't have numbers or research to back strength comparison.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

I'm not sure I buy the 'but all the race teams use 9" and 10"' anecdotal example. In a race, if a ring/pinion fails, they need a quick and easy method to swap out gears. A drop out covers that issue... a d60 failing in Ultra 4 is a race killer. So they value ease of repair way over ultimate strength. They also have an open wallet budget that most "normal" folks have no access to. So dropping $1200 on gears is no big deal.

I don't have numbers or research to back strength comparison.

That's basically exactly it. With ub's you can change a 3rd pretty fast.

On the other hand, the top guys aren't really out there to finish, except maybe the Campbell's once they have much more than tire failure, they usually retire. I have no doubt a 10" comp gear set is stronger than a D60, it's just not a practical option for most. I also, found there isn't much middle ground between $1200+ 10" gears and standard 9" gears

Didn't randy loose his lead because of a rear 3rd failure last year? Not 100% sure he was running 9"/10" because I heard he ran a 10.5" Tundra 3rd at one point.

It's too bad torq fucked up so bad, the 14b drop outs could have been a game changer.

 

[rockmup]

I heard he ran a 10.5" Tundra 3rd at one point.

I'd love to hear more about these. I put 5:29's and a Harrop E-locker in my Tundra this year and have been wondering why I never hear about anyone running them. Its a big beefy bitch for sure

 

[YotaAtieToo]

I'd love to hear more about these. I put 5:29's and a Harrop E-locker in my Tundra this year and have been wondering why I never hear about anyone running them. Its a big beefy bitch for sure

Theyre pretty awesome, just not a ton of support yet. Until I read your post I honestly thought 4.88s and an ARB were pretty much all that was available.

Ruff stuff makes a housing for them. I wonder if Arb would put 14b 30 spline side gears in one?

 

[rockmup]

Theyre pretty awesome, just not a ton of support yet. Until I read your post I honestly thought 4.88s and an ARB were pretty much all that was available.

Ruff stuff makes a housing for them. I wonder if Arb would put 14b 30 spline side gears in one?

I put an E-Locker in the front clamshell too, they don't list it for the Tundra but do list it for the Sequoia and they are the same unit.

There are lots of these axles in the yards down here.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

I put an E-Locker in the front clamshell too, they don't list it for the Tundra but do list it for the Sequoia and they are the same unit.

There are lots of these axles in the yards down here.

Funny you mentioned the Sequoia, I was trying to find info on the rear IRS 3rd for the other thread, but couldn't find what size r&p they use.

 

[JR4X]

I can’t even join this discussion because I can’t talk about 14 bolts without being condescending and insulting.

I’ve currently got in my possession 4 100% aftermarket Dana 60’s, one 100% aftermarket 9”. I race a car built with front and rear 100% aftermarket 9”s. 14B’s were always an option available to me. Instead I run 60’s and 9”‘s.

I wheel with the kind of people who break 14B r&p’s so I don’t see any gain from them other than the cost to get started.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

I can’t even join this discussion because I can’t talk about 14 bolts without being condescending and insulting.

I’ve currently got in my possession 4 100% aftermarket Dana 60’s, one 100% aftermarket 9”. I race a car built with front and rear 100% aftermarket 9”s. 14B’s were always an option available to me. Instead I run 60’s and 9”‘s.

I wheel with the kind of people who break 14B r&p’s so I don’t see any gain from them other than the cost to get started.

Well 14b wasn't really the subject, but since you brought it up are you saying that a hi9 is holding up better than a 14b in your group?

The one axle builder I talked to does a lot of bouncer axles, their opinion was that a 10" can't even touch the 14b. But they also use brand new castings. I think a lot of people gloss over how much strength is gained with and aftermarket housing vs a 40 year old junk yard find.

What has broke and what has held up in what for you?

 

[KrisKYK]

Who's the mysterious axle builder your referring to?

 

[Wilson]

Theyre pretty awesome, just not a ton of support yet. Until I read your post I honestly thought 4.88s and an ARB were pretty much all that was available.

Ruff stuff makes a housing for them. I wonder if Arb would put 14b 30 spline side gears in one?

Arb will not, Tech Tim used to have or access to an EDM setup and could/ did that kind of work

 

[Wilson]

Who's the mysterious axle builder your referring to?

I’m curious who all he talked to as well, lol

 

[Wilson]

Another reason that race teams run the 9” platform is because of the fabricated housings. They can be built to hold up better without the tube/ cast interface and you can literally weld whatever you want, wherever you want.

 

[Wilson]

My vote:

race car = 9” platform

street/ trail rig= Aftermarket Dana-based

 

[rockyota83]

That's basically exactly it. With ub's you can change a 3rd pretty fast.

On the other hand, the top guys aren't really out there to finish, except maybe the Campbell's once they have much more than tire failure, they usually retire. I have no doubt a 10" comp gear set is stronger than a D60, it's just not a practical option for most. I also, found there isn't much middle ground between $1200+ 10" gears and standard 9" gears

Didn't randy loose his lead because of a rear 3rd failure last year? Not 100% sure he was running 9"/10" because I heard he ran a 10.5" Tundra 3rd at one point.

It's too bad torq fucked up so bad, the 14b drop outs could have been a game changer.

randy hasnt ran 10.5s for quite a few years now iirc

iirc he only ran them for a few years

 

[Wilson]

randy hasnt ran 10.5s for quite a few years now iirc

iirc he only ran them for a few years

I think it was only one year/ car

 

[rockyota83]

I can’t even join this discussion because I can’t talk about 14 bolts without being condescending and insulting.

I’ve currently got in my possession 4 100% aftermarket Dana 60’s, one 100% aftermarket 9”. I race a car built with front and rear 100% aftermarket 9”s. 14B’s were always an option available to me. Instead I run 60’s and 9”‘s.

I wheel with the kind of people who break 14B r&p’s so I don’t see any gain from them other than the cost to get started.

youre hilarious if you think a d60 r&p stronger than 14b r&p

the only way a d60 r&p would be stronger than a 14b r&p is if the d60 has super 60 gears with the bigger pinion in an after market center section accompanied by a beefy ARB carrier vs an old shitty thin weak casting 70s 14b with no crush sleeve and a weak spool as a carrier with shitty preload on the carrier

 

[rockyota83]

I think it was only one year/ car

it was the first bomber and i think it was at least 2 maybe 3yrs

but honestly cant remember exactly, i do know ive had this exact discussion and looked it up a couple years ago though

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Who's the mysterious axle builder your referring to?

East coast gear supply. They have a nice 9" 3rd package, but when I told them what I wanted it for (500 hp jeep with 42s with 60s) they said it would have been more of a lateral move. They claim that the 14b's they sell take a beating with very little failures. I'd say screamin blue is a great example of a 14b's strength, I think 3 guys ran it during a shootout one year, plus he was there prerunning backdoor the whole day before.

Arb will not, Tech Tim used to have or access to an EDM setup and could/ did that kind of work

I wasn't sure if the internals were the same between the 14b and Tundra 10.5" I know they try to keep as many parts common across similar sized units.

I’m curious who all he talked to as well, lol

Ecgs, Currie, ruffstuff, yukon and even Jantz. All sell a ton of 9" stuff and none would really instill confidence in using it in that application. Ecgs recommend a 14b, Currie their rock jock 60 or 70 and ruffstuff mentioned either a 14b or Tundra 3rd. Guy at yukon didn't seem to really have as much actual trail time, but he even said he didn't believe it would be an upgrade from the D60. Jantz also recommend a 14b, I called to see about putting D80 5.38s in a D70 we wanted to use. (no D70 5.38s made) but he said it's just too much of a nightmare.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

My vote:

race car = 9” platform

street/ trail rig= Aftermarket Dana-based

I'm not anti 9" BTW, I actually really like them. I just think they aren't as great as everyone says. We all see them taking crazy abuse in koh, ect, but often forget that those guys may be changing the r&p every other race (no idea honestly)

I think they are probably fine for a lot of trail and street rigs, just not at the 10"/14b level from what I've read and been told.

 

[KrisKYK]

Call gearworks they will set you straight with a lot of info and tech


Also what other gear set can handle abuse of 2.375" TT axle shafts for hours on end at high speeds.

Try that with 14 bolt and pull the ring gear and you will find some very interesting things....

​​​

I'm using 10" gears for my next build which will driven to trails...

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Call gearworks they will set you straight with a lot of info and tech


Also what other gear set can handle abuse of 2.375" TT axle shafts for hours on end at high speeds.

Try that with 14 bolt and pull the ring gear and you will find some very interesting things....

​​​

I'm using 10" gears for my next build which will driven to trails...

I didn't call GW because I wasn't looking to spend $5k on a 3rd. Unless they have options I'm not aware of.

Again, how often are those 3rds replaced? At the very least you know they pull them every race for inspection.

It's also funny to try and compare a $1500 gear set in a $3k 3rd to a standard 14b r&p. I'm sure if someone made a fancy soft 14b gear set it would be super strong also.

None of the race gear manufacturers I talked to recommend them for street or trail rigs. I'd be curious to see if there are people out there actually putting miles on the 10" stuff. The only rig I can think of off hand is Fred's summer camp jeep, maybe Beat95yj has some insight.

 

[KrisKYK]

The price of entry with a spool is around $2,900 starting

If your sole focus is just gear strength at economical cost, 14 bolt makes a lot sense.... but there's not a whole lot of money in that for product development of those kind of gears or for a 14-bolt bolt because all the money is focused on a bigger picture, going fast....which has many more requirements than a cast center axle can provide.

also I'm not sure why you'd want even stronger gears for 14-bolt. They are pretty strong enough as is for the 95% of people. Once you're in the last 5% is where things start to get expensive custom and start to enter the realm of a 9-inch

 

[YotaAtieToo]

The price of entry with a spool is around $2,900 starting

If your sole focus is just gear strength at economical cost, 14 bolt makes a lot sense.... but there's not a whole lot of money in that for product development of those kind of gears or for a 14-bolt bolt because all the money is focused on a bigger picture, going fast....which has many more requirements than a cast center axle can provide.

also I'm not sure why you'd want even stronger gears for 14-bolt. They are pretty strong enough as is for the 95% of people. Once you're in the last 5% is where things start to get expensive custom and start to enter the realm of a 9-inch

How much is the Arb to go along with a 10" 3rd? Aren't they almost $2k?

I realize all that. You mentioned the 14b r&p in a trophy truck, which is obviously something that will never happen. It's possible that the 10" race gears are better for that application and a scratch built 14b is better for a crawler/bouncer. Ecgs claimed they have seen quite a few failures and there is a reason why they never took off in bouncers.

 

[KrisKYK]

For most crawlers, and bouncers I think 14 bolts makes sense like you mentioned.

Also you might check out gear works Instagram they have some very interesting tech posting on there concerning gear life. when I chattd with them they told me it would be years before I need to replace the gears for what I'm planning.

40 spline arb is around $2200, 35 spline is around $1100

36 spline 2.375" shaft spool $500

 

[Wuz-A-zuk]

I'm trying to understand why 9" and dana 60's always get compared to a 14 bolt? Shouldn't the 14 bolt be compared to similar axles with 10"+ ring gears like the tundra, sterling, dana 70, or even ford 9" with 10" gears?

Especially since this comparison seems to be ring gear sized based. Use/ aftermarket support/ cost/ off the shelf availability/ and last but not least Weight seems to make this debate endless once you bring the 14 bolt into the 9" vs. 60 debate. Doesn't a pair of 609 axles weigh similar to a 14 bolt, that alone would sway a decision for a comp rig.

 

[rockyota83]

Again, how often are those 3rds replaced?

not nearly as often as you think, we have had this discussion on pirate in the past and they last years on rigs, everyone thinks because theyre softer they only last 1k miles, they will last 20k miles just not 200k

 

[rockyota83]

Ecgs claimed they have seen quite a few failures and there is a reason why they never took off in bouncers.

tim runs them now instead of d80s

 

[YotaAtieToo]

tim runs them now instead of d80s

He changes shit every year, he ran them a few years ago, but went back to 80s, then 14b, then 80s

 

[YotaAtieToo]

not nearly as often as you think, we have had this discussion on pirate in the past and they last years on rigs, everyone thinks because theyre softer they only last 1k miles, they will last 20k miles just not 200k

Maybe 20k on trail rig, no way a 1200 hp trophy truck is getting 20k miles out of a 3rd.

It might take a while to get 20k miles on a trail rig, but damn that $1200+ gear set feels like something that should last a lifetime