Basically Stock CJ-7 - UPDATE

Yeah, I do like the look of a full bodied rig and I'm not a fan of comp cut rears... The Warn flares are very flexible and allow more movement than you would guess. I plan to move them up to the top of the tub and rework the inner fenders to raise them about 3". I'm also going to have to make room for the shock towers and the upper links. That's a lot of sheet metal in the way...
 
This is my first 4 link and I could use all the advice I can get.

First step was calculating the center of gravity and weighing stuff. Most posts I see folks just estimate the CG is at the upper bolt of the bellhousing. Get this, my Sprung CG is about 14 inches below and 10 inches behind that! More like the top of the rear of the transmission. The Vehicle CG is just above the frame. I've spent a lot of time double checking and estimating and I'm pretty confident in these crazy numbers...

The next step is to crawl under the rear with a plumb bob and a tape measure and figure out where I could mount the links.

The third step is to enter it all in the 4-link calculator (THANKS Triaged and VetteBoy79!) and then start adjusting locations until the numbers seem acceptable. This is where the low center of gravity creates some issues. To get the anti-squat below 100 I either have to drop the lower link below the frame (I've worked too hard getting a flat belly for that) or push the upper links through the floor. Right now the frame side mount is 3" above the floor under the seats and the truss is 1.5" through the floor at full bump... with a measly 3.5" of uptravel.


Anyway, here's the numbers, thanks for any input...
 

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On Sep 17, 2014 "T" said:

Your headed in the right direction! Weighing and re weighing was such a pain but well worth it in the end! Thank god for fiends with lifts and scales! The calculator was the best guide for me! Great build!
 
On Sep 17, 2014 Mieser said:

For link calcs it is best to use SPRUNG CoG. With the way you measured you have an excellent number for overall vehicle CoG. I think the newest version of the 4-link calculator helps you calculate the sprung version with the front and rear unsprung mass. I think all your really worried about for link calcs is sprung cog height also.

On your link design

-Getting the upper links that close together will be difficult.
-Pinion change with the shorter upper links may be difficult to manage with the shorter wheelbase and rear driveshaft.
-A good goal is to try and get the suspension to cycle between 0% AS on full compression and 100% on full droop. Its harder than it sounds.
-I would try and built in a little adjustment to the frame side upper mounts that would allow you to set the AS between 40-75% or so.
-The length of the instant center is good. 2x wheelbase seems to be a decent number to shoot for.
-Height of instant center is ok, a little lower might be better.
-Roll understeer is good, don't go much more though. It will handle a little better with slight roll understeer on the road.
-Try and hide the lower links. Making them so long the mounting points snag on the belly sucks.
-10" of vertical separation is good but you don't HAVE to have that much if your going to have good quality joints.
 
Thanks "T"!

Just what I was hoping for Mieser! I'm really confused because the spreadsheet input is labeled "vehicle CG" and the comment says to see the vector calcs sheet for sprung and anti-squat CGs. I've played with it and the front axle weight has no effect on the results so I've just entered an estimate. The rear axle does affect the results and I've entered actual unsprung weight.

Specific responses:
  • upper axle horizontal separation is small due to Horizontal Bracket I'm using
  • pinion change is less than 3 degrees
  • I've got a plan for a slick adjustable upper mount, stay tuned :D
  • The lower links don't hang below the axle or belly
  • I'm using 1.25" rod ends from Ruff Stuff, but with a 40" tire I thought 10" of separation was as low as I should go. Not true?
 
On Sep 18, 2014 Mieser said:

Thanks "T"!

Just what I was hoping for Mieser! I'm really confused because the spreadsheet input is labeled "vehicle CG" and the comment says to see the vector calcs sheet for sprung and anti-squat CGs. I've played with it and the front axle weight has no effect on the results so I've just entered an estimate. The rear axle does affect the results and I've entered actual unsprung weight.

Specific responses:
  • upper axle horizontal separation is small due to Horizontal Bracket I'm using
  • pinion change is less than 3 degrees
  • I've got a plan for a slick adjustable upper mount, stay tuned :D
  • The lower links don't hang below the axle or belly
  • I'm using 1.25" rod ends from Ruff Stuff, but with a 40" tire I thought 10" of separation was as low as I should go. Not true?
Click to expand...
I would use Sprung CoG in the calcs, the problem is that I don't really think its easy to find out. All your really concerned with is Sprung CoG height, not fore and aft location.

10" of vertical separation is a good safe bet, about 1/4 tire dia, but you can go lower. The links and joints will see higher forces, but I don't think it will be a deal breaker. I would feel pretty comfortable going down to 8" of separation with that size joint.....as long as the links are pretty stout. You see a lot of 3-link + Panhard suspensions with comparable link separation and they only have one upper link to take the load...so 100% more force on the single upper link.
 
On Dec 2, 2014 wap said:

Just came across this and love the build. I was set on linking my front (cj7) and leaving the rear on leaves but now you got me second guessing myself.....

Very clean work, keep it up.
 
On Dec 16, 2014 ddestruel said:

UPDATES?

BTW I did finally cough up one of my 401’s on to the classifieds. though i know of a few short blocks in las vegas... you’re still way too far away for it to pencil but its good to tease


And when i say updates, eagerly awaiting pictures
 
On Dec 18, 2014 WheelingPiazza said:

Love the build.

Btw I had the same clearance issues with my PS hoses with my 360 and chevy 350 conversions.

I moved the radiator up to the point I cut out the hood latch area to clear the cap, but it was still a tight fit.
 
OK, let's get in the wayback machine and go back to the start of the build when I reworked the transmission cross-member to get a flat belly. Knowing I would connect the lower links into it I went with 4" x 2.5" x 1/4" wall rectangular tube...
 

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Here you can see the transmission support, bolts directly to the Novak adapter for T-18a to Dana 300
 

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Hard to tell, but it's offset from center a bit for ground clearance. I used the same 3" poly bushing as the motor mounts and front shackles so I only have to carry one spare. I'm a strong believer that the drivetrain should be supported in only three places to keep from stressing it as the frame flexes - especially on these old CJ frames :D
 

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Which brings us up to today. The frame side lower is mocked up here level with the skidplate. I'm using weld washers to beef up the holes increase the bearing area.

You can see the crossmember is above the skidplate an inch so I can blow the mud out. I tried drain holes on the previous skid which was an epic fail.

In this shot you can also see some black paint above the transfer case where I trimmed and reformed the floor to clear the transfer case. I didn't get any picks, but I put an eyebolt through the floor and hooked a ratcheting chain binder to the cage then gradually tightened it while beating on the sheet metal. Worked a charm!
 

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Crappy pic of axle side lower and truss, nothing special.

My original plans called for the frame side upper to be above the faint vertical line you can see scribed into the frame near the jack stand. This would have meant hacking out the vertical section of the body where the passenger's feet go inboard of the body mount. My buddy and I felt like this would really weaken the tub, soooo, we came up with a brilliant plan to shorten the uppers.

The second pic show where I cut out the floor to accommodate the short uppers.
 

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So I put everything in the 4-link calculator. I was thinking about Mieser's advice:

-A good goal is to try and get the suspension to cycle between 0% AS on full compression and 100% on full droop. Its harder than it sounds.
But I thought he got compression/droop mixed up. First screen shot is ride height, the next is full bump followed by full droop. All was good - until I started thinking about it. It would work fine when the suspension was level but when flexed under power the tire at full bump would push down hard and the tire at full droop would suck up. In other words the squat/anti-squat would be on the wrong sides and it would try to flip the vehicle over. Not good. Not good at all.
 

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So back to the drawing board. Here is where I'm at now, not real happy with the amount of understeer, but the only way to level it out is to give up some of the angle between upper and lower links, right now I'm at my 45 degree minimum.
 

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I've been trying to fit the struts without notching the frame. I made a template for the tire and played around with upper and lower mount locations. I'd like to avoid notching the frame if possible.
 

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It turned out that raising the lower mount above the axle center line helps counter act the side to side movement of the axle when it articulates (rear steer). The lower mount started getting pretty close to where the brakes would be, so I had to switch gears and get the brakes mocked up. The bolt on bracket from Rough Stuff needed another 1.4" of offset so I chucked up some steel and made a spacer with inner and outer shoulders...
 

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Here's the bracket in the correct location. I picked up some 1976 Eldorado calipers from Lugnut4x4 here on the board. I REALLY like having a parking brake and this seemed like the easiest way to go. I have to say he provided some nice hardware for the parking brake cable. I did have to mill about .025" off of each pad to clear the rotors. I opened the center bore and re-drilled the holes for the studs on rotors from a 1987 3/4 ton Chevy 4x4. I know there are mixed reviews on the board about Eldorado calipers, finger crossed...
 

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On Apr 19, 2015 78Levi said:

Love the build, I'm enjoying just tinkering with my old cj as much as anything I've built. 20 years ago full bodied Cj's were the norm. Now it's buggys and big motors. Nice to see vintage rigs getting used. I'm hoping to get my t18 in the next month or so, should make trail manners a lot nicer.
 
Love the build, I'm enjoying just tinkering with my old cj as much as anything I've built. 20 years ago full bodied Cj's were the norm. Now it's buggys and big motors. Nice to see vintage rigs getting used. I'm hoping to get my t18 in the next month or so, should make trail manners a lot nicer.
Thanks, and I have to agree on all points. Tinkering is a great way to spend the weekend. As to the T-18a, years ago I was out with a good friend when his CJ started acting up. I suggested we swap rides so I could diagnose the problem. When we finished the trail he could not believe how much easier mine was to drive when the main difference between our rigs was the transmission. We swapped a T-18 in his later that same season...
 
I think I've finally got the strut mounts figured out. Here's how I mocked them up. Rather than risk damaging the ORI's I took some square tube and made several pieces the length of the strut compressed and extended. Here you can see the mocked up struts fully articulated. The mocked up "tire" is on the stuffed side.
 

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Now onto fabbing the mounts. Got the lower mounts done this weekend... One thing I've never understood is why the width of high misalignment spacers doesn't match the ID of common tube sizes. It's kind of hard to see, but I had to flare the tabs out almost an 1/8" on each side.
 

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The cross member in front of the gas tank has been giving me trouble. Here you can see how I whittled away at it to clear the axle truss, I was planning to beef up the back side. But it also supported a pair of body mounts that were in an awkward location between the strut mounts. The final straw was that there wasn't enough room to run the exhaust over the axle. The second shot shows how I raised the cross member up to better support the shock towers. The 3/16" steel is about twice as thick as the factory piece of spaghetti and much stiffer due to an extra couple of bends.
 

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I also moved the body mounts back about 3". This should make the sheet metal stronger and easier to fab. First pic is the spot welds for the relocated body mount. Second is the cross member in place. Third is the brace I'll have to shorten and bend.
 

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Shot from the front and side. It was a nice weekend in the shop :D
 

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One down side of moving the cross member back is I have to find a new home for the gas tank. Is it safe to mount it in the back or should it be under the sheet metal? The reason I ask is the easiest thing to do is mount a Tanks, Inc. U2 universal tank right behind the seats. It's an 18 gallon tank that's 36" wide, 10.25" long and 14.25" tall. I've seen a lot of mixed reviews of the RCI fuel cells and I'm hoping this is a little more durable as its made of 16 Gauge stainless.

I'm also a little torn about going with an in-tank pump or adding a sump and using an external pump. Any advice would be appreciated...
 

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Time for a short update. Welded up the links, 2 x .25" DOM uppers, lowers are the same except I sleeved them over some 1.5 x .25" DOM I had left over from the steering. The tech here is that you are much less likely to bend the lower if you tie the two pieces together. I thought about plug welding but that induces stress risers, so instead I welded the ends by jamming the stinger in and welding it blind. After a couple test welds it came out pretty well, I missed about 1/4 of one end. Sorry about the pic, the camera wanted to focus on the end of the tube instead of the weld.
 

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With the links done I was able to use the trusty mockup of my tire to trim the tub. Also cut out everything from the upper mounts back and the insides of the wheel wells in preparation for mounting the gas tank.
 

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