Data centers at it again

RunningProblem said:
so instead of computers and machines filling bottles it's just computers and not many people lost their job when Gatorade left town?
Edit: the power they bought is from Amarillo, and they can't even use it. It's just being added to the grid. Nice. It's about the same as gold mines in Nevada buying MASSIVE generators just to supply the grid with their consumption. Not many gave a **** about gold mine power consumption because they're producing gold apparently. Also jobs and money. Makes sense.

71PA_Highboy I could be wrong, but I don't think the millennials are running the corporations funding these data centers. Rob Roy, the CEO of Switch (the company someone couldn't find a parking lot for in Oklahoma) was 'almost 40' in 2009. He isn't a millennial. He is 'almost 56' which puts him firmly in the Gen X category. Sorry for thinking it was an old guy expanding on his 401(k). I guess the boomers are just buying the rental properties. I'll make sure to mail you all the ****s I have today.
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Hey 'Arse of the left side of the country'... Here are the real stats:
  • OpenAI: Sam Altman, 41
  • Anthropic: Dario Amodei, 43
  • Google DeepMind: Demis Hassabis, 49
  • Mistral AI: Arthur Mensch, 33
  • Microsoft AI: Mustafa Suleyman, 41
  • Scale AI: Alexandr Wang, 29
Top 6 AI companies.... Where is that 56 year old?

Keep passing on the blame Arse Jr. It allows me to more clearly categorize the value of your input.
 
You do know data centers and AI aren't the same, right? Data centers house your medical records. Amazon web service operates a data centers. Netflix, BMW, the New York Times, a LOT of hospitals, and a few other companies use Amazon Web Service data centers to operate their business. It's like having a room of filing cabinets, and your business model is to rent those file cabinets to local companies so THEY don't have to have the physical space to store files. Sort of like a bank with safe deposit boxes.


I've never heard of scale or Mistrel. I thought Microsoft was the Bill Gates guy.


Good for millennials. **** yeah. Millennnials are ruining everything. Keep up the good work. No more Boomer or Gen X leading the way all the time.
 
RunningProblem said:
You do know data centers and AI aren't the same, right? Data centers house your medical records. Amazon web service operates a data centers. Netflix, BMW, the New York Times, a LOT of hospitals, and a few other companies use Amazon Web Service data centers to operate their business. It's like having a room of filing cabinets, and your business model is to rent those file cabinets to local companies so THEY don't have to have the physical space to store files. Sort of like a bank with safe deposit boxes.


I've never heard of scale or Mistrel. I thought Microsoft was the Bill Gates guy.


Good for millennials. **** yeah. Millennnials are ruining everything. Keep up the good work. No more Boomer or Gen X leading the way all the time.
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I do know data centers. I run some.

AI is driving the demand for the data centers.... no AI, no demand, no buildup at the expected rate.

AI workloads are projected to represent between 35% and 50% of all data center capacity by 2030, rising from roughly 15% to 24% in 2024. Overall, AI is driving a massive surge in the energy footprint, with total data center power consumption expected to double by 2030.

I know you like knee jerk reactions like your right coast counterpart, but the details are pretty easy to find and get right.
 
RunningProblem said:
You do know data centers and AI aren't the same, right? Data centers house your medical records. Amazon web service operates a data centers. Netflix, BMW, the New York Times, a LOT of hospitals, and a few other companies use Amazon Web Service data centers to operate their business. It's like having a room of filing cabinets, and your business model is to rent those file cabinets to local companies so THEY don't have to have the physical space to store files. Sort of like a bank with safe deposit boxes.


I've never heard of scale or Mistrel. I thought Microsoft was the Bill Gates guy.


Good for millennials. **** yeah. Millennnials are ruining everything. Keep up the good work. No more Boomer or Gen X leading the way all the time.
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The “uses more power than Utah” data centers are all AI. Basically all of the new data center demand is for AI.
 
RunningProblem said:
this from the guy who could find you based on a sunset photo posted 15 years ago.
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Wait, is this a Baja game? Cause I'm in for that.

Guess I should have looked at that Pic a little closer. Would be more accurate to say you can't see a parking lot from the street. Looks like there's a lot more stuff around the buildings than when we were there 4 years ago.
 
71PA_Highboy said:
I do know data centers. I run some.

AI is driving the demand for the data centers.... no AI, no demand, no buildup at the expected rate.

AI workloads are projected to represent between 35% and 50% of all data center capacity by 2030, rising from roughly 15% to 24% in 2024. Overall, AI is driving a massive surge in the energy footprint, with total data center power consumption expected to double by 2030.

I know you like knee jerk reactions like your right coast counterpart, but the details are pretty easy to find and get right.
Click to expand...

This is likely true... but I have one issue with it. MSFT and others reclassify their usage constantly to make their numbers "look good. " They did it with Intune, they did it with EMS, they did it with o365 (even in BPOS days), and they are doing it with copilot.
 
rockota said:
This is likely true... but I have one issue with it. MSFT and others reclassify their usage constantly to make their numbers "look good. " They did it with Intune, they did it with EMS, they did it with o365 (even in BPOS days), and they are doing it with copilot.
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Kind of like a sale pitch or a **** measuring contest?
 
71PA_Highboy said:
I do know data centers. I run some.

AI is driving the demand for the data centers.... no AI, no demand, no buildup at the expected rate.

AI workloads are projected to represent between 35% and 50% of all data center capacity by 2030, rising from roughly 15% to 24% in 2024. Overall, AI is driving a massive surge in the energy footprint, with total data center power consumption expected to double by 2030.

I know you like knee jerk reactions like your right coast counterpart, but the details are pretty easy to find and get right.
Click to expand...
So in 5 years 1/3 of the data center will be AI. Wow. That like being upset about Google and Ask Jeeves taking up internet space. 2/3 could be a LOT of stuff unrelated to AI, but let's focus on the one new thing.
 
RunningProblem said:
Sounds like you need to vote in better elected officials.

Light and noise pollution? From a data centers? This is somehow different than a grocery store unloading a truck at 2am next to a residential area?

Oh, and those contractors from out of town. Yeah they bid the job because if it is anything like here there wasn't actually enough capable workers to do the job. Sorry the locals aren't ready to build a 600,000 sq ft building. Maybe the community should have done something about their labor force over the past decade. Nothing like crying about lack of jobs and lack of pay to then complain about someone else getting hired to do the job you couldn't.
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All the local officials see is the money from atxs and campaign contributions from the a corporations, they are all incompetent oafs.

They are the same in vain as any of large retailers or industry complexes in terms of light pollution with a fraction of the tax burden or employment.

The metro here has over two million people and has been growing year over year for the last 50 years. Amazon and meta use national companies to manage the builds and “local subs” from national companies, which can be local or from a state away. They throw them up in 6 months on average, for the infrastructure they use it’s a long term loss for the communities they are in. Now if they were in bfe or in industrial areas i wouldn’t have as much an issue but they are putting them right next to residential areas here. I don’t live near them so it’s not a big deal but the writing is on the wall if you have any interest in reading it.
 
RunningProblem said:
Sounds like you need to vote in better elected officials.

Light and noise pollution? From a data centers? This is somehow different than a grocery store unloading a truck at 2am next to a residential area?

Oh, and those contractors from out of town. Yeah they bid the job because if it is anything like here there wasn't actually enough capable workers to do the job. Sorry the locals aren't ready to build a 600,000 sq ft building. Maybe the community should have done something about their labor force over the past decade. Nothing like crying about lack of jobs and lack of pay to then complain about someone else getting hired to do the job you couldn't.
Click to expand...

All the local officials see is the money from taxs and campaign contributions from the ai corporations, they are all incompetent oafs.

They are in the same vain as any of large retailers or industry complexes in terms of light pollution with a fraction of the tax burden or employment.

The metro here has over two million people and has been growing year over year for the last 50 years. Amazon and meta use national companies to manage the builds and “local subs” from national companies, which can be local or from a state away. They throw them up in 6 months on average, for the infrastructure they use it’s a long term loss for the communities they are in. Now if they were in bfe or in industrial areas i wouldn’t have as much an issue but they are putting them right next to residential areas here. I don’t live near them so it’s not a big deal but the writing is on the wall if you have any interest in reading it.
 
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Utah ..... A lot of peeps are pushing back on these data centers because of water demand. I am scratching my head on why they need so much water. Large systems I worked on, used closed loop chillers; many systems were water cooled (chillers). Make up water was a trickle.
 
The new sales/inventory program we went to at work a few days ago is with Amazon I guess.
I'm not sure why Amazon would be involved even.
 
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WLDWUN said:
bull****

you cannot generate the power they consume, without a massive source of cooling.
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which doesn't need to be radiated through water

it just takes a lot more power generation to dump heat other ways
most simplistic economic calculation would balance the price of water for evaporative cooling against the cost of electric to run blower fans on radiators
 
Pocahontas said:
All the local officials see is the money from atxs and campaign contributions from the a corporations, they are all incompetent oafs.

They are the same in vain as any of large retailers or industry complexes in terms of light pollution with a fraction of the tax burden or employment.

The metro here has over two million people and has been growing year over year for the last 50 years. Amazon and meta use national companies to manage the builds and “local subs” from national companies, which can be local or from a state away. They throw them up in 6 months on average, for the infrastructure they use it’s a long term loss for the communities they are in. Now if they were in bfe or in industrial areas i wouldn’t have as much an issue but they are putting them right next to residential areas here. I don’t live near them so it’s not a big deal but the writing is on the wall if you have any interest in reading it.
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Before this was being blamed for ruining everything it was homes being built and selling at high prices to Californians. So what if they're being built next to residential areas? Is anyone going to be hurt living next to a bunch of servers? Is it any different than living across from the Amazon warehouse stacked with lithium batteries and flammable chemicals?
Warehouses have been built and sat unused for a while. No one said to tear it down because it was ugly to look at.
No one seems to enjoy living next to a grocery store when they unload a truck at 2am because milk can't sit out until 8am.



Wait...are the local officials supposed to see a financial LOSS on a new project they approve? Somehow you sound like you'd oppose this because it generates revenue and then you'd support something to cost the county money just because it isn't a data center.

Oh and I'm kind of okay with jobs going away. With less jobs you have less money floating around and we can have some 2010 pricing. Less gas being used. Less cars on the road. Maybe a few less kids being born. I say this having been unemployed. Might make teaching or those shovel ready projects appealing again.
 
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Pocahontas said:
They are the same in vain as any of large retailers or industry complexes in terms of light pollution with a fraction of the tax burden or employment.
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And by being basically a big, clean, self contained metal box they're no more environmentally impacting than an office or warehouse with less traffic of all kinds so all the bull**** environmental stuff that's usually used to hamstring and extract money from industrial development doesn't apply. But of course it does apply to the power generation and power lines so of course feeding these DCs the input they need is expensive and sometimes the local community winds up paying. FAFO I guess. I don't really see a problem, good for them.
 
[486] said:
which doesn't need to be radiated through water

it just takes a lot more power generation to dump heat other ways
most simplistic economic calculation would balance the price of water for evaporative cooling against the cost of electric to run blower fans on radiators
Click to expand...
Cheaper to use closed loop and spend energy on cooling than to filter more water.
 
arse_sidewards said:
Cheaper to use closed loop and spend energy on cooling than to filter more water.
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dunno bro don't think anywhere would run the equivalent of raw water cooling

you run an exchanger between the inside loop and the cooling tower loop
keeps all your inside bits clean and lets you pump birds and sea turtles through your evaporative towers
 
[486] said:
which doesn't need to be radiated through water

it just takes a lot more power generation to dump heat other ways
most simplistic economic calculation would balance the price of water for evaporative cooling against the cost of electric to run blower fans on radiators
Click to expand...
Eventually it costs less to build a water treatment plant for your data center. No need to pay for water if it is closed loop using glycol and/or your own treated water in a 'proprietary' process.
 
[486] said:
dunno bro don't think anywhere would run the equivalent of raw water cooling

you run an exchanger between the inside loop and the cooling tower loop
keeps all your inside bits clean and lets you pump birds and sea turtles through your evaporative towers
Click to expand...
Costs too much to be amortized over the expected lifetime of the system to come out ahead. Government has a lot to do with that of course.

If it were me I'd have the whole roof, parking lot, every sidewalk and drain culvert plumbed for radiant heat. Not that it'll matter in the grand scheme of things but it sure would be cool to never deal with snow or ice. :laughing:
 
arse_sidewards said:
Costs too much to be amortized over the expected lifetime of the system to come out ahead. Government has a lot to do with that of course.
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uhhhh
that's how every power plant works
boiler water is way too expensive to evaporate off
arse_sidewards said:
If it were me I'd have the whole roof, parking lot, every sidewalk and drain culvert plumbed for radiant heat. Not that it'll matter in the grand scheme of things but it sure would be cool to never deal with snow or ice. :laughing:
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half the year that incredibly expensive radiator is not useful as a heat sink though, it'd be a heat source in the summer
 
billdacat said:
Utah ..... A lot of peeps are pushing back on these data centers because of water demand. I am scratching my head on why they need so much water. Large systems I worked on, used closed loop chillers; many systems were water cooled (chillers). Make up water was a trickle.
Click to expand...
I keep hearing this question asked and never answered... I'm in the same boat - should be a closed loop system.
 
[486] said:
uhhhh
that's how every power plant works
boiler water is way too expensive to evaporate off
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The lower end of power plant expected lifetime is higher than the upper end of data center. That affects the finance magic math a lot.

[486] said:
half the year that incredibly expensive radiator is not useful as a heat sink though, it'd be a heat source in the summer
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I don't think it'd be a meaningful heat sink even in the winter. Just that it'd be nice to never have to deal with snow.
 
I think the NIMBY issue with data centers is the back up (or primary in some cases) power generation. Noise & exhaust from those make it more than "just a warehouse"
 
rockota said:
I keep hearing this question asked and never answered... I'm in the same boat - should be a closed loop system.
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Out if sheer laziness, and the enjoyment of the irony, I asked GPT about it. It says the majority of them will utilize evaporative cooling due to power requirements of doing dry cooling.


Data Center Size​
Daily Water Use​
Equivalent Homes​
100 MW
~1.3 million gal/day
~4,200 homes

250 MW
~3.2 million gal/day
~10,500 homes

500 MW
~6.3 million gal/day
~21,000 homes

1 GW
~12.7 million gal/day
~42,000 homes
 
arse_sidewards said:
But of course it does apply to the power generation and power lines so of course feeding these DCs the input they need is expensive and sometimes the local community winds up paying. FAFO I guess. I don't really see a problem, good for them.
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That’s the big rub here, now who knows what’s what but rates are up 30% since Covid and 100% since 2010ish. I know they had to do a bunch of transmission line work for the cluster they just put in because it was going to draw so much power. Water doesn’t really matter we have rivers pretty much anywhere and if you dig down more than 20 feet at most you will hit the water table.

I don’t have a problem with them as a whole and I think they will be here for the long term but I don’t see why they can’t go on the way outskirts of town. They were floating the idea of building one in bfe by the national forest that was going to consume more power than the entire state.
 
Pocahontas said:
That’s the big rub here, now who knows what’s what but rates are up 30% since Covid and 100% since 2010ish. I know they had to do a bunch of transmission line work for the cluster they just put in because it was going to draw so much power. Water doesn’t really matter we have rivers pretty much anywhere and if you dig down more than 20 feet at most you will hit the water table.

I don’t have a problem with them as a whole and I think they will be here for the long term but I don’t see why they can’t go on the way outskirts of town. They were floating the idea of building one in bfe by the national forest that was going to consume more power than the entire state.
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To curry favor and legitimacy with NIMBY ******s and environmental ******s the government has strangled utility build out to the best of it's ability for many decades. Now, we've got an industry boom on our hands and nothing to power it. Rather than take blame or blame their useful idiots they're pointing the finger at industry.

If you replace all these data centers with aluminum casting literally nothing would change except the screeching about water would be replaced with something else.
 
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