1978 F-fun hundred 3/4 tons and 37s

rattle_snake said:
If you have a degree wheel I would throw it on there and see what you have, since you have the crank gear to adjust it with.
But the next question is, what do you want it to be? If it is +4, do you take that out?

Having had several bent cams, I would measure runout on middle journal first, before nicking the bearings taking it in and out over and over.
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I’ll roll it across the shop floor to verify.

The thing that messes with my mind is the cam being manufactured with 4*+ instead of being neutral or straight up and it being the installers choice to advance or reetard 4* for where they want the torque curve. Or has it always been this way, the context is now published differently ? Am I 8*+ or 4*+ advanced?
 
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WiscoF100 said:
I’ll roll it across the shop floor to verify.

The thing that messes with my mind is the cam being manufactured with 4*+ instead of being neutral or straight up and it being the installers choice to advance or reetard 4* for where they want the torque curve. Or has it always been this way, the context is now published differently ? Am I 8*+ or 4*+ advanced?
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it's been built into aftermarket cams for a long time, because the majority of people buying cams aren't running them at 5k+ rpm enough for it to matter. those that are, are going to degree it in or out as needed. 4* won't be an interference issue on pretty much everything, and helps the driveability just a little bit
 
I guess I understand it more clear now. Just follow what they’re saying. 112lsa is the advancement from 108 icl. “Straight up” or 0 would be 112/112 as an example. No advance built in.

It’s only become an issue or subject matter with this engine. 26 years ago I wasn’t the one ordering cams. I just asked dad to buy the parts for hotrod engine. It didn’t have to make sense at 16 yrs old. Dad was responsible for the math, I was responsible for having the coolest car in the parking lot.
 
And I get the effects of cam timing, the confusion was mostly the fear of overlooking an important detail/failure of proper math or adjustment on my part during assembly that would affect the cam manufacturers design. I’m clear and confident to install the cam dot to dot pending verification of valve timing events. I don’t anticipate any error but the tools can collect dust like my brain or I can pretend to be pick your favorite celebrity engine builder for a day.
 
I think the biggest thing is to help account for timing chain strethc/wear over time, especially when using the old style link chains.

I just learned of the 4* advance in the last few years. Everything I built prior I always just did the dot to dot. I did use an offset key in a 300-6 once to advance the cam 2* :laughing:
 
.0015” of run-out. Time to clean and grease it up
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Late model Ford Hi-Lo horns. Concealed behind turn signals. Pretty neat and very quick repurpose of the original bracket and fender apron fasteners. First attempt at weather pack connectors for its new harness/extension. I’ll be using them a lot for serviceable disconnects on the wiring refresh
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Dirty drill bit extension. Needed to sneak through grill shell for driver horn stud mount
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Old ugly delco remy
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Pulley arrived once I stirred some shiit with usps. Next morning delivery. Handled with care after one month
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So tiny
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Tapped into the stator wire for a trick electric choke source and also for the hourmeter
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Head lamp relay almost complete. Cam and engine assembly should be pretty close to done tomorrow night.

Old cam was verified with damaged lobes. It’s garage art now.
 
Per the wrecking yard 15-20 F-150, these are 2021+ and online searching shows these are the same since 80s econoline. Only update is weather pack plug vs spade. They are FIAMM horns 🇺🇸 Google shows same app across many many Fords and other makes as well.

$30 eBay wrecking yards
 
It’s detectable but it’s not U-shaped so just gonna send it!

Could even be run-out in the lathe or the sweet cereal box jaw protectors I used 🤣

Edit: I could reposition and check again to pinpoint source of run-out. The lathe will be handy to clean and prelude the cam đź‘Ť
 
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Gotta sleep on this. Posting thoughts and confusions.

Timing chain 0* straight up TDC verified
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Turn engine clockwise, intake opens along with degree wheel note
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Max lift, zero indicator
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Degree wheel sitting on 112*
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Rotate counterclockwise past .050”, bring it back clockwise to .050” Degree wheel is 72.5*
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Continue clockwise to max lift “0” to .050” Degree wheel reads 160.5*
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160.5 + 72.5 =233/2 =116.5

Cam card is 112* lobe separation, intake centerline of: 108*
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Something is off. I can’t figure it out right now. Repeat results after 3 attempts. All within 1* of final answer. I’m overlooking, overthinking, underthinking, uncalibrated, uneducated and unhappy about how this is going. Is the answer right in front of my face? Degree wheel is sitting on 112* when the dial indicator is zeroed out at max lift. Is that my answer? I don’t trust this whole we advanced the cam for you voodoo. That’s what adjustable timing chain sets are for. More reason to get away from “smog” motors. Too much is getting lost in translation.
 
Disregard. I never ran the engine backwards in all this. Always clockwise. My comment might’ve been late night confusion of collecting numbers using the .050” method in reverse order from “zero”
 
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Also, feel free to give crower a call at any time. They should still be good at answering the phone and going through whatever you are seeing
 
So, you measured ICL two ways. They will be the same number only if the cam lobe is symmetrical.
Max lift = 112
center of 0.050 to 0.050 =116
but
Cam card = 108.
to get 108, you need to ****** it 4 to 8*, however it should read 108 with straight up.
 
I’m gonna need a day off to call Crower. Focused, prepared, lots of info.

Tried their method per the poorly published book with the cam. Proofreading fail. Anyways they’re kinda the opposite of starting on base circle etc. my numbers are out in the weeds with their method.

I’ve watched dozens of YouTube videos, forums and online magazine articles. This was easier the first time around building this engine.

I follow the TDC, straight up install, rotate clockwise/running direction until I reach max lift. Spend sometime verifying that. Zero out indicator. Reverse rotation .100”, clockwise (to preload chain again) back to .050” record degree wheel at 72.5*. Continue to max lift “0” and follow through dropping to .050” on the indicator. Record degree wheel at 160.5*.

I’ve tried a couple procedures/methods of events of finding TDC and beginning the centerline method. It’s splitting hairs.

Same timing set as before but new. Summit G6621R-9. Slight exaggeration for the photo but I noticed the crank is slightly wee Todd Edd when finding TDC.
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I’m going to setup with a lifter and pushrod and check again in a few days after I recover from a night shift I should be sleeping for right now. This indicator is a little more reliable but reads .005” so I need to be careful and keep my numbers straight or revolutions.
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The lifter bore tool really sucks on a tall deck even worse when it’s in the truck

Sick to my stomach how much I’ve turned this engine over. Maybe I should dump the oil in and prime the mains with a drill.
 
8 days of messing around with this cam. Hundreds of hours on YouTube. I’m following the procedure correctly for ICL.

Tried my old timing set. Same results. Tried every A&R position. That only throws off the numbers and visually you can tell you’d be in big trouble in relation to valve and piston events.

Removed cam once to verify number and compare against all correspondence. 15965 is correct. One concern is it’s suppose to be grind 258H but box and invoice reference 268H although correct P/N 15965. Compared it against old cam and the naked eye says the lobes etc are relatively close to one another. Not like it’s wrong firing order or core etc.

Tried several dozen times on #1. Checked and rechecked TDC half as many times using a positive stop. Even tried a dial indicator and the results were splitting hairs.

Tried #2 same results.

Tried 3 different dial indicators. Same results.

Made a new tool pressing 2 old lifters together for tighter tolerances and more weight to follow the ramps.

My ICL is always 116.5* +/- 1*

Intake lift is .009” more than card and distraction @ .050” 24* longer. Exhaust lift is dead-on .280” and duration @ .050” 14* longer duration.

Tried the @ .050” lift method. Card says intake open @ -8 ATDC reality is -14–16. Intake close @ 28 ABDC but reality is 38.

Called Crower and took the guy a minute to absorb what I explained. Then our connection got ****ed with lots of echo from my voice so I missed a couple points I wanted to make regarding dot to dot and trying different key way positions or that this was already a proven engine. At any rate he was stead fast on positive stop TDC, the ICL method and values per the card @ .050” tappet lift.

At my expense I have to ship the cam back to them with a statement and they’ll put it on the cam doctor and verify the events themselves.

#2 verification. TDC was found and valve event procedures proved faulty again. I machined a press fit pin to hold 2 empty lifters together.
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Photo for posterity that I was measuring #1 intake lifter bore
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A lot to digest

At this point all I can do is have someone who knows their business observe my procedure or try it themselves.

I’m not concerned one way or the other if the cam is correct or not. I’m concerned about time and whether or not there’s a “problem” with my engine. Which I doubt and we’ll find out when the cam is verified.

There’s no way it could be stacked tolerances. Not this big or this consistent. I’m missing a step in the procedure or something if the cam turns out to be correct.

I had the old one reverse engineered in under an hour and would bet money it’s the Edelbrock 2172.
 
Was going to try thunderhead289 group but Luke can’t sort through all the requests but returned my message within moments that I’m stuck in the backlog.

Not posting in the FB 351M group. Couple of jackwagons in there I want to avoid.

Here’s to removing a greasy cam and sending it back to sunny California!!! 🍻

Incredibly bummed, stressed and irritated about this deal. Is it me? The engine? The cam?
 
Are cam-cards just printed off based on what they are supposed to be, or is it based on a backcheck of the actual work?

Assuming its the first?
 
Depending on who you ask (YouTube/forums) the card is the law. Holy document. Birth certificate etc. As in the guy who ground the cam creates the document.

I have a feeling these days it’s just a document on file they print and throw in the box.
 
Diving back into the wiring…

Trying to step up my game with supplies and execution of the tasks. Also trying to stay out of the meme pages or insurance claims 🤣

Horn extension/jumper

Copper barrel crimps. Thinking 3 steps ahead and sliding the heat shrink on.
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Joint sealed
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Joint supported
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Split braid terminated with 3:1 adehesive heat shrink
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Nothing is ever bolt on. Gutted the Toms off-road harness. I want to tether both grounds together and direct to battery. Not local terminals on the core support.
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Stepping away from vinyl electrical tape and its issues. So far I like the results of this cloth tape. It’s lighter and thinner than vinyl. I can’t get most of the connectors de-pinned so some braided ends will just get a black zip tie.
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Same treatments to follow for duraspark and other underwood wiring. Oversized 3:1 heat shrink where I can at braided ends.

Committing to duraspark upon break-in. That way dizzy and cam gear wear in together. Start up shouldn’t be too bad and dramatic. More or less it works or it won’t right? Through this whole cam deal I did verify the balancer/pointer once more. Static timing should be a breeze.
 
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