Can You Beat The Brad Lovell Bronco? KOH EMC Stock Class Dreamer Thread

ScottRS said:
Not that it makes it any less uncomfortable, but some of us former unlimited class guys are "former" and not "current" for the same reason.
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I'd step up on my soap box and write a diatribe about the roots of this sport and how the vision was to provide an adventure like Baja at a rock crawlers price point, but I doubt like hell anyone wants to read that much.

It is the nature of things in which 20 years produces. If not for the influx of money, KOH would be a footnote in history, a fond memory for old men to recall around a campfire. Personally I hate what it has become and I'm finally comfortable going on record about it. However, I walked off the field and it's not my bat and ball, so I'm no better than any other keyboard warrior spilling bitter gibberish into the virtual space.

It seems a missed opportunity to not celebrate the OG people at the 20th, but that also seems par for what KOH has become.

We can't change history, but we certainly learn from it.

I've found a useful tool, that I will share. Any endevor I consider, I ask myself "What Does Success Look lLke?"

If nothing else KOH saved Johnson Valley from the Marine base expansion and it's the only fighting chance to keeping that area open. However, I'm pretty sure there have been lots of differnt types of personal success stories built on the backs of the OGs.

Thanks Scott for showing up that day.

Jeff Knoll
 
KOH-OG#13. Did you go to KOH this year? They did do a tribute to the OG 13 on the stage one night. Had JR up there talking. Read the list of names. Had to be at the fire pit.

That reminds me of a new gripe I had this year. They put up loud speakers we couldn’t control the volume on nor turn off in the pits that blasted the audio from the main stage as long as they were on. We’re prepping EMC cars and trying to communicate, have our night before pit meeting etc. And baseball stadium loud Miles voice is blanketing the whole pit all the way up past the gate 4. 1 star. 1/10 don’t recommend.
 
I hope I don't come across as bitter that I'm not involved any more, as the meme says, no ragerts. I'm in a different place in life now than 20 years ago (as we all are, I'm sure).

I stepped away in part because I couldn't fund competition at that level, in part because my last two races had wrapped up with fear of my own imminent death due to chest pains from a bruised heart, in part because my wife was preggo with our second child during my last race and being there for my kids needed to be a higher priority. It was the right time for me to not be competing any more, and while I cherish the memories, I don't wish I was still in it.

Side related note: Jeff, you may remember (or he may not have told you): we told Dave at the last minute for the 08 race that I needed to change my codriver because my wife wanted to do it. Dave knew how preggo she'd be at that time, and we let him stress for a bit over how to say no to a pregnant woman. The intent to actually do it was never there, but my daughter that was born that spring is now a recurring trail guide and recreational rockcrawler.
 
Back to the topic:
I was joking about the portal'd WRX, but Subaru did actually have a 2 speed transfer case of sorts in the 70's to maybe early 90's. A portal'd brat might actually be class legal though tragically underpowered. A turbo forester might also be class legal if they kept the 2 speed thing late enough, or if Australian market distribution is acceptable.

Realistically, it's a Bronco, Jeep, and Toyota class at this point, just pick preferred poison.

I was pondering though, what about a straight axle Gwagon? V8, maybe turbo V6, maybe turbo V8, straight axles, smallish body, minimal overhang. Just not common, but maybe depreciated and/or dysfunctional in factory trim to be cheap by now.

Hijack risk: I saw a lot of talk of engine management headaches this year and last. Are the factory supported guys mandated to use OEM based engine management? If not, I'm baffled why there's not more motec, haltech, Megasquirt, holley, or otherwise aftermarket standalone EFI. If it's trans integration, RADesigns or similar manual shift control to the solenoids (everything modern is pretty much just solenoids by now anyway) and roll on, or am I missing some big piece of that? I know I was scared of the Megasquirt before I got into it, but now I wouldn't hesitate to go that route again (and have one sitting in my basement awaiting install right now).
 
ScottRS said:
Back to the topic:
I was joking about the portal'd WRX, but Subaru did actually have a 2 speed transfer case of sorts in the 70's to maybe early 90's. A portal'd brat might actually be class legal though tragically underpowered. A turbo forester might also be class legal if they kept the 2 speed thing late enough, or if Australian market distribution is acceptable.

Realistically, it's a Bronco, Jeep, and Toyota class at this point, just pick preferred poison.

I was pondering though, what about a straight axle Gwagon? V8, maybe turbo V6, maybe turbo V8, straight axles, smallish body, minimal overhang. Just not common, but maybe depreciated and/or dysfunctional in factory trim to be cheap by now.

Hijack risk: I saw a lot of talk of engine management headaches this year and last. Are the factory supported guys mandated to use OEM based engine management? If not, I'm baffled why there's not more motec, haltech, Megasquirt, holley, or otherwise aftermarket standalone EFI. If it's trans integration, RADesigns or similar manual shift control to the solenoids (everything modern is pretty much just solenoids by now anyway) and roll on, or am I missing some big piece of that? I know I was scared of the Megasquirt before I got into it, but now I wouldn't hesitate to go that route again (and have one sitting in my basement awaiting install right now).
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No such thing as a derail around here. It’s trans control. The 10 speeds aren’t “just” solenoids even though you are correct and it’s just solenoids. I’m the first one to run an ecoboost and 10 speed fully standalone. I’ve got an aftermarket 10 speed trans controller that’s only been available for months.

All the other new vehicles. Broncos, Jeeps etc. they are trying to trick some things that can’t be deleted from the factory management. ABS/traction control/advance track. All of the other broncos but mine are still running the factory computers because there’s no other way to control the 10 speed. I ran a manual trans waiting for US-shift to get their standalone controller working. Called a quick 10 and it can only do the 10R80 currently. Still working on the GM 10L90 version.
 
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ScottRS said:
Back to the topic:
I was joking about the portal'd WRX, but Subaru did actually have a 2 speed transfer case of sorts in the 70's to maybe early 90's. A portal'd brat might actually be class legal though tragically underpowered. A turbo forester might also be class legal if they kept the 2 speed thing late enough, or if Australian market distribution is acceptable.
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got re-read the rules amigo. custom gear set solves the problem. single speed is acceptable

general rules
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4600 rules
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Could it be realistically dumbed down, made to be "just" solenoids?

Or "just" adapt a manual valvebody c6/th400/727/a340 to the requisite engine? Back in the day, we put a toy g56 behind a Saturn DOHC 1.9 and then stabbed that into a Subaru GL wagon; assuming the factory support includes comparable CAD file access to what aftermarket upfitters get, it doesn't seem "that much" of a reach to dumb it down to a "we can work with this" level.
 
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mobil1syn said:
got re-read the rules amigo. custom gear set solves the problem. single speed is acceptable
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Arguably, transmission first gear is that regardless of what the transfer case is or isn't. Your problem if it's not low enough and you melt the converter.

In the days before those rules, we tried to figure out a way to build a trans-tcase unit, wet clutches throughout for front/rear drive and shiftable at speed from crawling to 150mph. Neat concept, not enough in my entire 401k to make it reality.
 
ScottRS said:
Could it be realistically dumbed down, made to be "just" solenoids?

Or "just" adapt a manual valvebody c6/th400/727/a340 to the requisite engine? Back in the day, we put a toy g56 behind a Saturn DOHC 1.9 and then stabbed that into a Subaru GL wagon; assuming the factory support includes comparable CAD file access to what aftermarket upfitters get, it doesn't seem "that much" of a reach to dumb it down to a "we can work with this" level.
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Can’t do that with the rules. Transmission has to be available in that vehicle model and year range. My only legit options were the one odd manual transmission or the 10 speed. Trans swaps like engine swaps not allowed
 
JR4X said:
No such thing as a derail around here. It’s trans control. The 10 speeds aren’t “just” solenoids even though you are correct and it’s just solenoids. I’m the first one to run an ecoboost and 10 speed fully standalone. I’ve got an aftermarket 10 speed trans controller that’s only been available for months.

All the other new vehicles. Broncos, Jeeps etc. they are trying to trick some things that can’t be deleted from the factory management. ABS/traction control/advance track. All of the other broncos but mine are still running the factory computers because there’s no other way to control the 10 speed. I ran a manual trans waiting for US-shift to get their standalone controller working. Called a quick 10 and it can only do the 10R80 currently. Still working on the GM 10L90 version.
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I used US-shift to program the 4R100 trans Tim used behind the Coyote in that blue Commando buggy he built on his Eliminator chassis, we ran all over Moab getting that thing dialed in. Was cool but also nearly 10 years ago, haven't touched it since...curious to know how they evolved. My Eagle is getting a manual regardless but it was a fun project getting that thing going.
 
ScottRS said:
I hope I don't come across as bitter that I'm not involved any more, as the meme says, no ragerts. I'm in a different place in life now than 20 years ago (as we all are, I'm sure).
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Good morning, my comments about being bitter are a generalization. It was not directed at you. If anything they characterize my own mindset.

JR4X said:
KOH-OG#13. Did you go to KOH this year? They did do a tribute to the OG 13 on the stage one night. Had JR up there talking. Read the list of names. Had to be at the fire pit.
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That's good news, I'm glad they did something. Too bad they did not stream it, as it could have been pre-recorded programing, like the Jesse Combs spot.

I was not at the event, I've only been back a couple times since I last raced with Greg Adler. My experiences were not great. It chaps my ass that I am expected to pay the standard entry fee. Mark Mathews used me as his +1 one year, and it was nice to hang out with him before he passed away. The second time a staffer put me on the VIP least and it created all kinds of drama.

I'm not really able to go to KOH and just be a tourist, honestly I end up getting bored. All that said, this year was completely off the table as my wife was diagnosed with Breast Cancer in late Sept and we have been focused on her health. She is recovering now and has her last surgery scheduled next month.

However, I've not missed a live stream all these years and still deeply love the race, just not the event.

I feel like I've put enough money in DC's pocket.
 
vetteboy79 said:
I used US-shift to program the 4R100 trans Tim used behind the Coyote in that blue Commando buggy he built on his Eliminator chassis, we ran all over Moab getting that thing dialed in. Was cool but also nearly 10 years ago, haven't touched it since...curious to know how they evolved. My Eagle is getting a manual regardless but it was a fun project getting that thing going.
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It’s pretty user friendly, probably especially for someone like yourself far more knowledgeable with computer ****. They have a little TCM and all the wire harness to hook up to the 10 speed. TCM needs the power and grounds hooked to the same spots as the ECM. Tap into the signal wire for the DBW pedal. Needed a plug in tach adapter for RPM signal. There’s 2 wires for the + / - for how you’re going to shift it when in manual mode. It comes with a little display and you can change all kinds of stuff without plugging anything else in. It was $1,500 for the Quick 10. And they are the only game in existence for the 10 speed right now. No one else is even close to being able to control one currently.

When I talked to US shift about it they hadn’t sold very many Quick 10’s yet. Their bread and butter is still 4 speed autos like the 4L80E and 4R100.
 
KOH-OG#13 said:
Good morning, my comments about being bitter are a generalization. It was not directed at you. If anything they characterize my own mindset.


That's good news, I'm glad they did something. Too bad they did not stream it, as it could have been pre-recorded programing, like the Jesse Combs spot.

I was not at the event, I've only been back a couple times since I last raced with Greg Adler. My experiences were not great. It chaps my ass that I am expected to pay the standard entry fee. Mark Mathews used me as his +1 one year, and it was nice to hang out with him before he passed away. The second time a staffer put me on the VIP least and it created all kinds of drama.

I'm not really able to go to KOH and just be a tourist, honestly I end up getting bored. All that said, this year was completely off the table as my wife was diagnosed with Breast Cancer in late Sept and we have been focused on her health. She is recovering now and has her last surgery scheduled next month.

However, I've not missed a live stream all these years and still deeply love the race, just not the event.

I feel like I've put enough money in DC's pocket.
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It was pretty obvious to me by the 4th or 5th year that it was no longer about doing something fun and cool, it was and is about the money. When you're paying thousands on thousands of dollars to go destroy your vehicle costing more thousands to repair after you spent thousands to prep, creating a platform to attract sponsors and advertising $$$ for someone else's benefit....who's really winning this race? Someone has pulled off a marketing masterpiece and is laughing all the way to the bank....
 
DesertCJ said:
It was pretty obvious to me by the 4th or 5th year that it was no longer about doing something fun and cool, it was and is about the money. When you're paying thousands on thousands of dollars to go destroy your vehicle costing more thousands to repair after you spent thousands to prep, creating a platform to attract sponsors and advertising $$$ for someone else's benefit....who's really winning this race? Someone has pulled off a marketing masterpiece and is laughing all the way to the bank....
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You might enjoy this article I wrote for LinkedIn a couple weeks ago on this very topic. We built a CULT, when we built KOH. I don't believe DC is laughing all the way to the bank, but if you read my follow up article I explain why I don't think KOH can be easily replicated.

2011 was my last year. Dave and I fought pretty much non stop and disagreed about most everything. I've never changed my tune about one thing in regards to KOH and Ultra4. If you like that KOH is a global phenomenon and the biggest off-road festival in the world, you should thank DC. I would have never invested in the expansion like Dave did. We were profitable every year while I was in the business, I'm not convinced he has been profitable since with exception of money invested by third parties (Like when he sold to U4USA). If I had retained the business it would look entirely different. HKP would be a media company, not a one trick pony.

HKP was a pioneer in live streaming, it seemingly missed that signal as opportunity, because they drank their own koolaide and got high on their own supply of race junky adrenaline.

It costs a lot of money to be cool.

I'm extremely thankful for the chance I had to chase my dream of working in the off-road motorsports world, but I pretty much wrecked my lifelong hobby in the process.

If you enjoyed those articles, you might enjoy my rambling about how to fix desert racing.
 
ScottRS said:
In the days before those rules, we tried to figure out a way to build a trans-tcase unit, wet clutches throughout for front/rear drive and shiftable at speed from crawling to 150mph. Neat concept, not enough in my entire 401k to make it reality.
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It was done and exists.
Lovell357 Tcase.
 


I'm curious what this concept is, but his opening statement hits hard at the truth.

www.linkedin.com

Building More Sustainable Economics in Motorsports

Even the best operators in the sport often find themselves rebuilding their business foundation every season. New budgets. New partnerships. New uncertainty.
www.linkedin.com www.linkedin.com
 
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KOH-OG#13 said:


I'm curious what this concept is, but his opening statement hits hard at the truth.

www.linkedin.com

Building More Sustainable Economics in Motorsports

Even the best operators in the sport often find themselves rebuilding their business foundation every season. New budgets. New partnerships. New uncertainty.
www.linkedin.com www.linkedin.com
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A lot of people have come and gone to/from ultra 4/KOH after 1 to maybe 5 years after dumping their life savings and home equity into their own "Race program". I believe in personal accountability so in the end, they have nobody but themselves to blame. That said, they were offered cool-aid, drank and then came back for more 'till the well ran dry....
 
KOH-OG#13 said:
You might enjoy this article I wrote for LinkedIn a couple weeks ago on this very topic. We built a CULT, when we built KOH. I don't believe DC is laughing all the way to the bank, but if you read my follow up article I explain why I don't think KOH can be easily replicated.

2011 was my last year. Dave and I fought pretty much non stop and disagreed about most everything. I've never changed my tune about one thing in regards to KOH and Ultra4. If you like that KOH is a global phenomenon and the biggest off-road festival in the world, you should thank DC. I would have never invested in the expansion like Dave did. We were profitable every year while I was in the business, I'm not convinced he has been profitable since with exception of money invested by third parties (Like when he sold to U4USA). If I had retained the business it would look entirely different. HKP would be a media company, not a one trick pony.

HKP was a pioneer in live streaming, it seemingly missed that signal as opportunity, because they drank their own koolaide and got high on their own supply of race junky adrenaline.

It costs a lot of money to be cool.

I'm extremely thankful for the chance I had to chase my dream of working in the off-road motorsports world, but I pretty much wrecked my lifelong hobby in the process.

If you enjoyed those articles, you might enjoy my rambling about how to fix desert racing.
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Being alive is a bad business model. I just returned from my 15th KOH in a row. Adding up some of the things from over the years. I’ve probably spent between thirty and forty thousand dollars just on pictures and videos in that time. We’ve likely spent over a million dollars between car builds. Tow rigs. Entry fees. Refreshes every year. Travel costs.

Have you been to a finals or something since you quit going to KOH? I started going with the advent of the EMC. I swear I’ve met you at an awards ceremony. Seen you get thanked on stage for getting things going before stepping aside. Maybe I’m making that up.
 
JR4X said:
Have you been to a finals or something since you quit going to KOH? I started going with the advent of the EMC. I swear I’ve met you at an awards ceremony. Seen you get thanked on stage for getting things going before stepping aside. Maybe I’m making that up.
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I crashed the awards in Reno because we lived three miles from the Nugget. Second time we actually got an invite which was nice. That might have been the time you remember. I also attended the Havasu U4USA dinner at JTs request as we had a winter place in LHC until this last October when my wife got sick.

I've never been on stage as far as I recall at any event since I left HKP, with exception of when I was leading the Save Johnson Valley effort and introduced Paul Cook and other politicians at KOH.

I met so many people during my time with Ultra4 and I can't recall them all because I'm getting old. Which sucks, I don't advise it.
 
KOH-OG#13 said:
I crashed the awards in Reno because we lived three miles from the Nugget. Second time we actually got an invite which was nice. That might have been the time you remember. I also attended the Havasu U4USA dinner at JTs request as we had a winter place in LHC until this last October when my wife got sick.

I've never been on stage as far as I recall at any event since I left HKP, with exception of when I was leading the Save Johnson Valley effort and introduced Paul Cook and other politicians at KOH.

I met so many people during my time with Ultra4 and I can't recall them all because I'm getting old. Which sucks, I don't advise it.
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It was the Nugget, I don’t expect you to remember me or mine. There’s hundreds of us and 1 of you.
 
My last KOH was 2013, and honestly have enjoyed watching the live stream just as much as being there. Those early years were great, 2008 worked a check point where some drivers didn't even have number plates, so with sharpie they'd scribble their number on a paper dinner plate and hold that up, :laughing: , and Shannon getting mad at me for making him come to a full stop, (I did the same for everyone else). After that me and my boyz pitted for EZ Rick and Scott Ward, and also for Les Figueroa, those were some good times but never got the FOA. I remember you stopping by our pit tent a few times. Take a look at the young guy in this pic!

winner-getting-check.jpg
 
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