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Last Call Guest on these Group Buy Deal Items from Baja Designs
CJ3BL
Well-known member
- Thread starter
- #32
You can say that again! I can burrow down the rabbit hole pretty easily. One of several reasons my build has progressed slowly! On the other hand, little details all add up to make a rig personalized. You did a great job on your 46 build- love the Kubota installation!it's amazing how much time and thought and work can be put into something as "simple" as a leaf spring perch.
Thank you sir
CJ3BL
Well-known member
- Thread starter
- #35
More Engine Prep, Initial Positioning
Picking away at detail engine and drivetrain preparations to get ready to mount stuff in the frame.
At that point, I wanted to use cast iron manifolds as I like the compact packaging and durability. I had picked up some 88-94 Blazer 4.3 manifolds which were cheap, easy to find, and not too cluttered, but the driver's side pointed directly into my slave cylinder...bummer. After much searching, I found a pretty good fit. The application for these was 90-95 4.3 V-6 Chevy G10, G20, G30, P30's. The GM part numbers are Driver's side GM10055571, Pass Side CM10055570. The parts are obsolete, but I found an NOS set. I thought they were going to work out well. The driver's side was OK for the slave cylinder and engine mounts, but I wasn't sure at that point about how the steering shaft would work out. The passenger side looked like it would work with my intent to try to squeeze the exhaust past the transfer case output. I mounted them temporarily for mock up work.
Here's some pics (click to enlarge)
-Driver Side
-Passenger Side
These pics also show the initial accessory drive pulleys mounted. (They are bargain parts for a small block chevy that I had already. While they worked OK for mock up, I later changed them as part of sorting out the accessory mounting).
In positioning the drivetrain, my goal was for a "flat bottom". To support mocking stuff up, I started on how to position the Dana 18 and T-18 in the frame. I made a simple clamp-on cross member that attaches to the T-case rear output. I set the height to be about as high as I think I will go relative to the rails, and if I need to go lower I can add shims under the rails to adjust downward. In the pic it’s set in the center of the frame, but the ends of the cross tube are long enough to slide side to side for offset. It's a little difficult to adjust positioning, but I liked the idea of having unfettered underside access. This cross brace is floppy without the engine in place, since the t-case output is offset and rotates - so I also used one of my saw horse stands bolted to the t-case adapter, as well as adding a jack stand under the tranny for now. Once the engine is bolted up and supported it's stable without the saw horse stand, and I'll have complete access to the underside including at the transmission mount area for fitting the final cross member.
Crude measurements at this point indicated the lowest drivetrain element (the e-brake) hangs about 2" below the rail. I was on the fence about the e-brake. I like the drive line brake, but it's the lowest point and if I got rid it then I'd be at about 1.5". In the pic you can also see that there's another set of the short saw horse A frame legs supporting the center rails just ahead of the temporary T-case cross member. The 5" taller ones (described in earlier posts) are supporting the front and rear bumpers. These all have threaded feet so they can be used to level the frame. While some of the weight is on the tires, the stands keep everything stable and level.
At this point, I also worked through using a Jeep clutch throw out arm and bearing. When AA sells this bell housing in a kit for Chevy 4.3 & V-8 to T-18, they use a GM cast steel release lever which extends pretty far beyond the bell housing. I hadn't bought that one as I knew it would be a problem as far as gas pedal clearance with the elevated drivetrain position planned. The Jeep parts were better in that regard. I won't go through the work on getting the throw out bearing sorted out, as I ultimately changed to an Tilton internal slave to get rid of the throw out arm to gain a little more foot clearance. You'll see the jeep release fork in a lot of pics until that change happens...
Even at this crude initial position mock up of the transfer case, it was becoming clear that the idea of running the passenger exhaust past the transfer case outer mounting ear and the driveline brake might not be possible while also keeping it sufficiently below the floor to avoid cooking passenger feet. Some great discussion with Meiser on his Rango build experience and looking at other builds pointed to possibly using a diver side manifold on the passenger side to route the exhaust under the engine pan to y into the driver side. So I mounted the drivers side manifold I had on the passenger side to see for sure how it would fit relative to the engine mounting point (which my engine stand currently bolts to in the photo). Not too good.
This was a very crude assessment though, so continued onward with the G10 manifolds in place to see how it shakes out.
Picking away at detail engine and drivetrain preparations to get ready to mount stuff in the frame.
At that point, I wanted to use cast iron manifolds as I like the compact packaging and durability. I had picked up some 88-94 Blazer 4.3 manifolds which were cheap, easy to find, and not too cluttered, but the driver's side pointed directly into my slave cylinder...bummer. After much searching, I found a pretty good fit. The application for these was 90-95 4.3 V-6 Chevy G10, G20, G30, P30's. The GM part numbers are Driver's side GM10055571, Pass Side CM10055570. The parts are obsolete, but I found an NOS set. I thought they were going to work out well. The driver's side was OK for the slave cylinder and engine mounts, but I wasn't sure at that point about how the steering shaft would work out. The passenger side looked like it would work with my intent to try to squeeze the exhaust past the transfer case output. I mounted them temporarily for mock up work.
Here's some pics (click to enlarge)
-Driver Side
-Passenger Side
These pics also show the initial accessory drive pulleys mounted. (They are bargain parts for a small block chevy that I had already. While they worked OK for mock up, I later changed them as part of sorting out the accessory mounting).
In positioning the drivetrain, my goal was for a "flat bottom". To support mocking stuff up, I started on how to position the Dana 18 and T-18 in the frame. I made a simple clamp-on cross member that attaches to the T-case rear output. I set the height to be about as high as I think I will go relative to the rails, and if I need to go lower I can add shims under the rails to adjust downward. In the pic it’s set in the center of the frame, but the ends of the cross tube are long enough to slide side to side for offset. It's a little difficult to adjust positioning, but I liked the idea of having unfettered underside access. This cross brace is floppy without the engine in place, since the t-case output is offset and rotates - so I also used one of my saw horse stands bolted to the t-case adapter, as well as adding a jack stand under the tranny for now. Once the engine is bolted up and supported it's stable without the saw horse stand, and I'll have complete access to the underside including at the transmission mount area for fitting the final cross member.
Crude measurements at this point indicated the lowest drivetrain element (the e-brake) hangs about 2" below the rail. I was on the fence about the e-brake. I like the drive line brake, but it's the lowest point and if I got rid it then I'd be at about 1.5". In the pic you can also see that there's another set of the short saw horse A frame legs supporting the center rails just ahead of the temporary T-case cross member. The 5" taller ones (described in earlier posts) are supporting the front and rear bumpers. These all have threaded feet so they can be used to level the frame. While some of the weight is on the tires, the stands keep everything stable and level.
At this point, I also worked through using a Jeep clutch throw out arm and bearing. When AA sells this bell housing in a kit for Chevy 4.3 & V-8 to T-18, they use a GM cast steel release lever which extends pretty far beyond the bell housing. I hadn't bought that one as I knew it would be a problem as far as gas pedal clearance with the elevated drivetrain position planned. The Jeep parts were better in that regard. I won't go through the work on getting the throw out bearing sorted out, as I ultimately changed to an Tilton internal slave to get rid of the throw out arm to gain a little more foot clearance. You'll see the jeep release fork in a lot of pics until that change happens...
Even at this crude initial position mock up of the transfer case, it was becoming clear that the idea of running the passenger exhaust past the transfer case outer mounting ear and the driveline brake might not be possible while also keeping it sufficiently below the floor to avoid cooking passenger feet. Some great discussion with Meiser on his Rango build experience and looking at other builds pointed to possibly using a diver side manifold on the passenger side to route the exhaust under the engine pan to y into the driver side. So I mounted the drivers side manifold I had on the passenger side to see for sure how it would fit relative to the engine mounting point (which my engine stand currently bolts to in the photo). Not too good.
This was a very crude assessment though, so continued onward with the G10 manifolds in place to see how it shakes out.
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dnsfailure
WHAT GEAR ARE YOU IN?
that's what's great about all these build threads, it benefits everyone, including the person building. Questions get answered, new ideas get spawned, and new techinques learned. I love it. This is what the internet should be for :) I hate that some day all of this information may be lost when old websites and forums go down. Porting all that information to new sites is a large task.
CJ3BL
Well-known member
- Thread starter
- #38
Drive Train Positioning
Proceeded to position the engine, transmission, and transfer case in the rails. I initially set a height that wasn't all the way up for a flat skid plate level with the lower rail edge, due to concern about crowding the interior. I then placed the grill, radiator and cowl/firewall assembly around it to see how things were looking. I also held up some tubing to see whether a straight steering shaft was likely to fit.
Here's some pics at this initial position: (click to enlarge)
Here's some key considerations on the above first pass: The engine is set level- no tilt down on the back. I'm pretty confident that the original Willys set up level and I always thought it was sensible in terms of driveshaft angles - so the front didn't pay a penalty to ease the u-joint angle on the back. I think it's a nice idea... IF both driveshaft angles are in a reasonable range... To do so, I'd also tweak the carb mounting surface to be level rather than having the usual built in slope that keeps the carb level on a tipped engine.
The low point on the transmission is the casting sump around the drain plug, and it sits 1.5" below the rail. The X-fer case oil pan low point is 2" below the rail. The e-brake lower edge is 3" below the rail. Everything is offset towards driver side by 1.125". The engine bay length is 36" from the front face of the grill to the firewall. This is 4" longer than stock I believe, based on some measurements I took before tear down.
You may also notice that I have the original firewall / floor transition bend sitting 1" above the rail (see 1' tall wood blocks). That was an error, and some forum feedback questions helped to identify the error and correct it in the next round. Here's how the elevations are planned:
After staring at this set-up for a while, here's some concerns and what I thought needed to happen next:
Proceeded to position the engine, transmission, and transfer case in the rails. I initially set a height that wasn't all the way up for a flat skid plate level with the lower rail edge, due to concern about crowding the interior. I then placed the grill, radiator and cowl/firewall assembly around it to see how things were looking. I also held up some tubing to see whether a straight steering shaft was likely to fit.
Here's some pics at this initial position: (click to enlarge)
Here's some key considerations on the above first pass: The engine is set level- no tilt down on the back. I'm pretty confident that the original Willys set up level and I always thought it was sensible in terms of driveshaft angles - so the front didn't pay a penalty to ease the u-joint angle on the back. I think it's a nice idea... IF both driveshaft angles are in a reasonable range... To do so, I'd also tweak the carb mounting surface to be level rather than having the usual built in slope that keeps the carb level on a tipped engine.
The low point on the transmission is the casting sump around the drain plug, and it sits 1.5" below the rail. The X-fer case oil pan low point is 2" below the rail. The e-brake lower edge is 3" below the rail. Everything is offset towards driver side by 1.125". The engine bay length is 36" from the front face of the grill to the firewall. This is 4" longer than stock I believe, based on some measurements I took before tear down.
You may also notice that I have the original firewall / floor transition bend sitting 1" above the rail (see 1' tall wood blocks). That was an error, and some forum feedback questions helped to identify the error and correct it in the next round. Here's how the elevations are planned:
- Referencing distances to the base of the grill shell frame mounting points as the primary datum for body elevations, and the lower face of the center frame rail as a secondary reference, here's how it works out:
- My old frame measured 9.8" from the bottom center rail surface to the top of the grill mount bracket. There was no cushion on this mount that I can remember. On the new design, the grill mounts directly to the top of the 5" rail, with a 0.125" rubber pad. The new height of the grill mount vs the center bottom rail surface is then 10.125", so the grill sits 0.325' higher than the stock 9.8" relative to the frame center rail bottom.
- The floor panels will mount directly to the top of the new 5" rail, so the new floor height relative to the lower rail bottom surface is essentially stock - the taller 5" rail is filling essentially the same space as the stock 4" rail + 1" of hat channel with a thin stock body mount pad.
- So, combining these points, the front floor height relative to the grill mount ends up 0.325 lower than stock.
After staring at this set-up for a while, here's some concerns and what I thought needed to happen next:
- A straight shot single steering shaft won't fit around the manifold. I like the engine offset overall for front driveshaft clearance, plus I think I maybe could also route the passenger exhaust past the x-fer case torque mount (so I don't have to go under the engine with it). Based on this balancing act, I was leaning toward biting the bullet and adding a u-joint and pillow block to the steering arrangement and keep the current manifold and engine offset. The routing with another joint looks pretty viable.
- Estimating the intake manifold, carb, and air cleaner height, I have room to move up with the engine in the tall 3B engine bay without getting into trouble. The concern I had about interior space crowding from going higher with the drivetrain doesn't change much by moving up a bit more than what's here.
- The e-brake is a concern on several fronts. It's an inch lower than everything else on the bottom. It sticks into the passenger side interior floor under the seat, especially if I go higher. It also crowds the passenger side exhaust routing idea. Trouble on several fronts even though I dig the driveline brake concept overall. I'm thinking I may take it off and do something different.
If I take off the e-brake, then about 2" of height increase would get me to a flat skid plate, which would be pretty cool. You can also see that the drivers side exhaust manifold flange is currently kind of close to the rail corner. Setting the engine higher would provide more clearance here. It would also make the steering shaft routing a little easier, but would still require a middle u-joint.
- I have some room to push the engine forward while still having sufficient clearance between the pump pulley and the electric fan. I think I'll move it forward about 0.5", and shorten the engine bay accordingly. I originally estimated a stretch of 3.5" in the engine bay, and that estimate appears to be panning out.
- I've got some space between the grill and radiator that will have a short front shroud. The lower side of the space is bounded by the top of the full height 2" x 5" crossmember in front of the radiator. I could have made the engine bay shorter by getting rid of this space, using a shallower cross member, and by cutting the headlight buckets to push the radiator forward, but I liked the big cross member and the overall layout this way. So most of the engine bay stretch is due to that decision. The next pic shows the cross member peeking out between the grill and radiator. The lower edge of the radiator core opening is aligned with the top of the cross member, which also centers the radiator vertically to the grill slot openings.
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CJ3BL
Well-known member
- Thread starter
- #39
I sure agree with you dnsfailure! I've learned so much from others' builds, and from feedback and questions on mine. Moving this build thread over to Irate and showing the complete build from the beginning is a pretty big task, which is a big part of why I dragged my feet on doing it. At the same time I wanted the whole build documented in one place where there's a strong community. Like you , I think it's tragic when forums go down and so much great info is lost. Hopefully we can all keep Irate 4x4 growing and moving forward! To your point on the build thread benefits to the builder, I'm finding that even the rebuild of the thread from the beginning is helping me by refreshing my memory on why I made some decisions and trade offs along the way plus the forum member feedback such as yours that shaped those decisions. I've got a lot of work ahead to get up to the current state of the build, but so far so good. Thanks on your thoughts- they reinforce that I made right decision to get moving on recreating the thread here!
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CJ3BL
Well-known member
- Thread starter
- #40
Drivetrain Positioning 2
I decided to go for it and move everything up 2" to achieve a flat bottom and see what headaches I make for interior and engine clearances.
The driveline e-brake is below the rails and skid at this height, but I think I may take it off in order to achieve a flat bottom and maybe support passenger side exhaust routing and the flat underside. (Still pondering that though, as the floor clearance is getting mighty close).
To move things up, I revised the temporary T-Case output mount/cross member I had made by re-welding the plate to flip it over, allowing the temp cross member to rest on top of the rails. This raised up the t-case and made it easier to move around. I then shimmed between the cross member and rails to tweak the height.
I also moved things forward a bit. The space between the water pump pulley and electric fan is now just large enough to thread a fan belt through to keep it easy to change a belt.
The offset from center was reduced to 3/4" as part of trying to get a straight shot with the steering shaft, which I have wanted but was having a hard time getting worked out with a larger offset. 3/4" looks like a better balance with the passenger side clearances. Moving the engine up 2" improved the clearance to the frame under the drivers exhaust manifold, and with the reduced center offset, it looks like it may provide sufficient clearance for the preferred steering. I may have to move the column position on the floor about 1-1.5" outward, which I think will be fine as it also provides more room for the gas and brake pedals, offsetting the crowding caused by the high transmission position. The Trans + T-case sit high in the interior, but I think I can live with that in order to get the flat skid.
I decided to make a basic cross member assuming this drivetrain positioning. It's a straight 1.5" x 3" tube under the T-18 and the Dana 18 torque mount. The T-case torque mount is about mid-rail in height and if I used the stock style rubber donut mount it would get in the way of the potential passenger side exhaust routing, but I have a couple of design concepts worked out that I think may solve this. I'll choose once I have the basic cross member positioned. I'm also using a Jeep CJ T-14 trans mount that bolts to the t-case adapter. It will mount on a bracket extending back from the x-member tube.
Here's a pic of the revised engine position, with steering shaft loosely in place. It would be moved up in the back a little more vs what's shown but can't go up much. Not sure if the U joint at the firewall could handle the angle with the shaft this low, and whether the column position would be good. This is a Borgeson collapsable shaft. I may modify it so that the area next to the manifold has the smaller diameter shaft rather than the larger double D tube - or just use a non-collapsable smaller diameter shaft since there's a good break angle at the column. I'd prefer to keep the collapsing feature if I can though, and I also can go with a pillow block and another joint if need be. I'd prefer to avoid that complicated approach though. I think there's enough options that I can solve it though, so I decided to forge ahead with the flat bottom drivetrain positioning, and make a transmission/t-case crossmember
Here's some shots of the cross member build:
The main part is a 1.5" x 3" x 0.120" tube, with welded 0.188" end caps. On the end caps, I wanted to provide a lead-in taper on the upper half to make it easy to draw the cross member up into its mounting bracket. The frame rails currently want to bow inward about 1/8" per side due to weld shrinkage at the front and rear cross member welds that pulls the rails inward over the length between the cross members. I had temporary rail spacers in place when I made the welds and I welded in short sections and let cool, but still had some shrink. This little issue will improve when I add another cross member / torsion bar tube at the rear rail jog, plus floor bracing, etc... but the end cap lead-in taper on the cross member will make sure it slides into place with no problem. The lower half on the cap has no taper, so it butts against the rail. I formed the end cap taper on my finger brake, and then fit and welded it to the tube ends:
Then I cut, faced, and countersunk some crush tube inserts. These were then fitted and welded:
The cross member will bolt upward into brackets on the rails, and the countersunk allen head bolts allow the skid to mount flush to the x-member and rails. I'll need to grind the welds to make smooth contact surfaces, or just add relief holes to the skid, or not extend the skid all the way onto the rails. Will decide when I get there...
Rail mount brackets are up next, then the trans mount bracket, and t-case torque mount.
I decided to go for it and move everything up 2" to achieve a flat bottom and see what headaches I make for interior and engine clearances.
The driveline e-brake is below the rails and skid at this height, but I think I may take it off in order to achieve a flat bottom and maybe support passenger side exhaust routing and the flat underside. (Still pondering that though, as the floor clearance is getting mighty close).
To move things up, I revised the temporary T-Case output mount/cross member I had made by re-welding the plate to flip it over, allowing the temp cross member to rest on top of the rails. This raised up the t-case and made it easier to move around. I then shimmed between the cross member and rails to tweak the height.
I also moved things forward a bit. The space between the water pump pulley and electric fan is now just large enough to thread a fan belt through to keep it easy to change a belt.
The offset from center was reduced to 3/4" as part of trying to get a straight shot with the steering shaft, which I have wanted but was having a hard time getting worked out with a larger offset. 3/4" looks like a better balance with the passenger side clearances. Moving the engine up 2" improved the clearance to the frame under the drivers exhaust manifold, and with the reduced center offset, it looks like it may provide sufficient clearance for the preferred steering. I may have to move the column position on the floor about 1-1.5" outward, which I think will be fine as it also provides more room for the gas and brake pedals, offsetting the crowding caused by the high transmission position. The Trans + T-case sit high in the interior, but I think I can live with that in order to get the flat skid.
I decided to make a basic cross member assuming this drivetrain positioning. It's a straight 1.5" x 3" tube under the T-18 and the Dana 18 torque mount. The T-case torque mount is about mid-rail in height and if I used the stock style rubber donut mount it would get in the way of the potential passenger side exhaust routing, but I have a couple of design concepts worked out that I think may solve this. I'll choose once I have the basic cross member positioned. I'm also using a Jeep CJ T-14 trans mount that bolts to the t-case adapter. It will mount on a bracket extending back from the x-member tube.
Here's a pic of the revised engine position, with steering shaft loosely in place. It would be moved up in the back a little more vs what's shown but can't go up much. Not sure if the U joint at the firewall could handle the angle with the shaft this low, and whether the column position would be good. This is a Borgeson collapsable shaft. I may modify it so that the area next to the manifold has the smaller diameter shaft rather than the larger double D tube - or just use a non-collapsable smaller diameter shaft since there's a good break angle at the column. I'd prefer to keep the collapsing feature if I can though, and I also can go with a pillow block and another joint if need be. I'd prefer to avoid that complicated approach though. I think there's enough options that I can solve it though, so I decided to forge ahead with the flat bottom drivetrain positioning, and make a transmission/t-case crossmember
Here's some shots of the cross member build:
The main part is a 1.5" x 3" x 0.120" tube, with welded 0.188" end caps. On the end caps, I wanted to provide a lead-in taper on the upper half to make it easy to draw the cross member up into its mounting bracket. The frame rails currently want to bow inward about 1/8" per side due to weld shrinkage at the front and rear cross member welds that pulls the rails inward over the length between the cross members. I had temporary rail spacers in place when I made the welds and I welded in short sections and let cool, but still had some shrink. This little issue will improve when I add another cross member / torsion bar tube at the rear rail jog, plus floor bracing, etc... but the end cap lead-in taper on the cross member will make sure it slides into place with no problem. The lower half on the cap has no taper, so it butts against the rail. I formed the end cap taper on my finger brake, and then fit and welded it to the tube ends:
Then I cut, faced, and countersunk some crush tube inserts. These were then fitted and welded:
The cross member will bolt upward into brackets on the rails, and the countersunk allen head bolts allow the skid to mount flush to the x-member and rails. I'll need to grind the welds to make smooth contact surfaces, or just add relief holes to the skid, or not extend the skid all the way onto the rails. Will decide when I get there...
Rail mount brackets are up next, then the trans mount bracket, and t-case torque mount.
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CJ3BL
Well-known member
- Thread starter
- #41
Transmission cross-member continued...
Did some more work on the Transmission/T-case crossmember.
Here's the end bracket that attaches the cross-member to the inside of the frame rail, made from 0.188" 1018 bent on finger brake:
(click to enlarge)
Here's the bracket that supports a Jeep T-14 transmission mount. (It's upside down here). It will be drilled once mounted to the main tube.
The trans mount bracket was then welded to the main cross-member tube. Holes were then drilled for mounting bolts to the steel base of the rubber mount, and larger access holes for a socket to reach the bolts through the steel top plate of the rubber mount to the transmission adapter plate. Here's a shot of the almost finished cross member, with frame rail brackets, and the T-14 mount sitting next to its mounting position:
I decided to mount this assembly in the rails, then I'll move on to the engine mounts, and then return to the T-case torque mount. My reasoning is that the positioning of the torque mount is kind of tricky to fit and its position is dependent on the other mounts, so I want those firmly in place before I fit it.
Here's the cross-member in place in the frame. I have the T-Case supported with the temporary cross member I made that attaches to its output. The trans is stabilized by the jack. With the offset from center at 3/4" it provided a little more room for my gas pedal foot near the clutch throwout fork tip and the steering column, although that is increasing the risk that I can't run the exhaust over the t-case torque mount. It will be barely possible at best but I can run it as a Y to the drivers side with the right manifold if need be. Everything is above the rails except the e-brake, which in addition to being the only thing hanging down , is also in the way of the potential passenger side exhaust routing and sticks way up as a concern for the floor. So the decision to remove it was firming up. I was still thinking about the skid specifics too, but will add features for that after more stuff is in place.
Here's a picture showing the t-case torque mount area. The standard mount could be made to fit, but would take up more space than some alternate designs I had in mind. A smaller mount would improve the odds of potential passenger side exhaust routing.
One nit-picky issue I need to work out is that the trans to t-case adapter surface that the T-14 style mount attaches to has a slope- so that it supports a typical tilted back position of the engine and drivetrain. The threaded mounting holes are perpendicular to this sloped surface. I still like the idea of level mounting the engine and drivetrain, and this is how I mocked it all up. The mounting bracket I made is level. I could succumb and tip the engine up, which would work fine with my current bracket, and would give the steering shaft more room, but I'd rather stick with the level approach. I could also just crank the bolts and twist the rubber mount, but that's a sure way to speed its failure. I can take things apart to pull the adapter, and then resurface it to be level, or I could just add a thin tapered shim to compensate for the slope. The bolt holes would still be tilted though, which isn't ideal for seating on the inside face of the rubber mount. Taking it further, I suppose the holes could be welded up and then re-drilled and tapped...which is getting kind of involved...
After some pondering, I decided to remove the angled taper on the bottom surface of the T-18 to Dana 18 t-case adapter, to support my intent to set the engine & trans level. The threaded holes were drilled perpendicular to the original angled base, so with a level base the holes have a slight angle vs perpendicular. The angle is small so it works fine as is, but I"m thinking I'll make some tapered flat washers to best align the bolts with the holes for final assembly. I didn't want to pull things out of the frame and take the assembly apart, so I leveled the base of the adapter with it in place. For rough removal of the taper, I used an angle grinder with a 1/4' thick wheel, and cut with the outer 1/4" edge of the wheel- orienting the wheel like a surface grinder, making light cuts. This orientation of the grinder fit up into the space and was controllable. I then used a file to smooth and level the rough ground surface. I had left the original leading edge of the taper intact when rough grinding, so it served as a reference line to align to as the rest of the surface was smoothed to meet it. I plugged the tapped holes with some foam ear plugs to keep the grit out. Slow going - on my back filing overhead for about an hour...but I think it turned out well:
With that fixed, I made final welds on the cross-member frame rail brackets. Here's a pic of a welded bracket and a view of the Trans/T-Case final position:
Now it's on to the engine mounts, then I'll add the t-case torque mount to the cross-member...
Did some more work on the Transmission/T-case crossmember.
Here's the end bracket that attaches the cross-member to the inside of the frame rail, made from 0.188" 1018 bent on finger brake:
(click to enlarge)
Here's the bracket that supports a Jeep T-14 transmission mount. (It's upside down here). It will be drilled once mounted to the main tube.
The trans mount bracket was then welded to the main cross-member tube. Holes were then drilled for mounting bolts to the steel base of the rubber mount, and larger access holes for a socket to reach the bolts through the steel top plate of the rubber mount to the transmission adapter plate. Here's a shot of the almost finished cross member, with frame rail brackets, and the T-14 mount sitting next to its mounting position:
I decided to mount this assembly in the rails, then I'll move on to the engine mounts, and then return to the T-case torque mount. My reasoning is that the positioning of the torque mount is kind of tricky to fit and its position is dependent on the other mounts, so I want those firmly in place before I fit it.
Here's the cross-member in place in the frame. I have the T-Case supported with the temporary cross member I made that attaches to its output. The trans is stabilized by the jack. With the offset from center at 3/4" it provided a little more room for my gas pedal foot near the clutch throwout fork tip and the steering column, although that is increasing the risk that I can't run the exhaust over the t-case torque mount. It will be barely possible at best but I can run it as a Y to the drivers side with the right manifold if need be. Everything is above the rails except the e-brake, which in addition to being the only thing hanging down , is also in the way of the potential passenger side exhaust routing and sticks way up as a concern for the floor. So the decision to remove it was firming up. I was still thinking about the skid specifics too, but will add features for that after more stuff is in place.
Here's a picture showing the t-case torque mount area. The standard mount could be made to fit, but would take up more space than some alternate designs I had in mind. A smaller mount would improve the odds of potential passenger side exhaust routing.
One nit-picky issue I need to work out is that the trans to t-case adapter surface that the T-14 style mount attaches to has a slope- so that it supports a typical tilted back position of the engine and drivetrain. The threaded mounting holes are perpendicular to this sloped surface. I still like the idea of level mounting the engine and drivetrain, and this is how I mocked it all up. The mounting bracket I made is level. I could succumb and tip the engine up, which would work fine with my current bracket, and would give the steering shaft more room, but I'd rather stick with the level approach. I could also just crank the bolts and twist the rubber mount, but that's a sure way to speed its failure. I can take things apart to pull the adapter, and then resurface it to be level, or I could just add a thin tapered shim to compensate for the slope. The bolt holes would still be tilted though, which isn't ideal for seating on the inside face of the rubber mount. Taking it further, I suppose the holes could be welded up and then re-drilled and tapped...which is getting kind of involved...
After some pondering, I decided to remove the angled taper on the bottom surface of the T-18 to Dana 18 t-case adapter, to support my intent to set the engine & trans level. The threaded holes were drilled perpendicular to the original angled base, so with a level base the holes have a slight angle vs perpendicular. The angle is small so it works fine as is, but I"m thinking I'll make some tapered flat washers to best align the bolts with the holes for final assembly. I didn't want to pull things out of the frame and take the assembly apart, so I leveled the base of the adapter with it in place. For rough removal of the taper, I used an angle grinder with a 1/4' thick wheel, and cut with the outer 1/4" edge of the wheel- orienting the wheel like a surface grinder, making light cuts. This orientation of the grinder fit up into the space and was controllable. I then used a file to smooth and level the rough ground surface. I had left the original leading edge of the taper intact when rough grinding, so it served as a reference line to align to as the rest of the surface was smoothed to meet it. I plugged the tapped holes with some foam ear plugs to keep the grit out. Slow going - on my back filing overhead for about an hour...but I think it turned out well:
With that fixed, I made final welds on the cross-member frame rail brackets. Here's a pic of a welded bracket and a view of the Trans/T-Case final position:
Now it's on to the engine mounts, then I'll add the t-case torque mount to the cross-member...
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CJ3BL
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- #42
Engine mounts & cross member
Made the upper block mounted engine mount assemblies . I went with a familiar design idea for these. They have a u-shape section cut from a 2" x 4" x 0.188" tube with 0.188" 1018 cold rolled flat plates. These use mounting bushings like the original T-case torque mount, which are also used on early Ford hotrods. I like the way the through bolts hold everything together even if the rubber part of the mount disintegrates. I've accumulated a few versions of these. The ones shown are poly, not sure where I got them. I also have original style T-case rubber mounts, that have the stepped down shoulder bolts, and a metal plate that the larger bushing recesses into. I'm going to use the full size 5/8 bolts rather than the shoulder bolts, plus the lower cupped plate but I haven't decided yet on whether to use rubber or poly bushings -probably final assemble with the rubber ones.
Having finished the upper part of the engine mounts, I then worked out the lower part of the mounts. I wavered for a bit on whether to make a full cross-member that the mounts tie in to, or just make simple separate lower mounts tied to each rail with no connection under the engine. I like the cross member idea as it provides a nice support for a skid plate, and it provides greater strength to the frame and the engine mounts compared to separate supports cantilevered off the rail. Weighing against those benefits was a concern that a full cross member could interfere with the front diff up-travel. The shallow part of the 4.3 oil pan is offset forward from the block engine mount location, so the cross member layout would need some offset of the engine mounts relative the cross member position under the engine.
After measuring and pondering a while, I decided to go for the cross member approach, with a 1.5" x 3" x 0.120" tube at the center under the pan, and 2" x 3" x 0.120" at the outer ends. To make it easier to pull the engine out, and also allow the oil pan to be pulled with the engine still in place, I decided to make the center section removable while leaving the engine on it's mounts. The rubber engine mount cushions will attach to formed plates welded to the back edge of the fixed cross member tubes.
Here's pics for the build of the removable center section, in order of fab
- The tube was cut in two locations to make bends in the tube, to create 65 degree slopes at each end of a U-shaped part. Took a little planning to figure out the layout... the photo shows the finished cuts, chamfered for later welding
- Started bends using a finger brake, working a little at a time to make a smooth radius- up to the point that the part closed in on the press finger
- Removed the part from the finger brake and clamped an end in a vice, then hand bent the rest of the way (I left the ends long for some leverage). It turned out that my angle layout was a little too tight on the mating straight edges, so I couldn't get the bend all the way to the desired angle. To remedy this, I ran a jig saw up the joint to open the space by a saw kerf width, and then re-chamfered the edges. The additional gap width enabled the bend to reach the planned 65 degree angle, with a tight joint for welding. I clamped the part across the top of the "U" to hold the joints tight for tacking and then final welding. The pic shows the welds at the bends
- I had some 1/2" -20NF bosses around that I had turned previously for something else. They were a good fit, so I put them to use - mounting them to flat end caps
- The next pic shows how the end plates with bosses are welded to the center section
-Finished center section of cross member
Made the upper block mounted engine mount assemblies . I went with a familiar design idea for these. They have a u-shape section cut from a 2" x 4" x 0.188" tube with 0.188" 1018 cold rolled flat plates. These use mounting bushings like the original T-case torque mount, which are also used on early Ford hotrods. I like the way the through bolts hold everything together even if the rubber part of the mount disintegrates. I've accumulated a few versions of these. The ones shown are poly, not sure where I got them. I also have original style T-case rubber mounts, that have the stepped down shoulder bolts, and a metal plate that the larger bushing recesses into. I'm going to use the full size 5/8 bolts rather than the shoulder bolts, plus the lower cupped plate but I haven't decided yet on whether to use rubber or poly bushings -probably final assemble with the rubber ones.
Having finished the upper part of the engine mounts, I then worked out the lower part of the mounts. I wavered for a bit on whether to make a full cross-member that the mounts tie in to, or just make simple separate lower mounts tied to each rail with no connection under the engine. I like the cross member idea as it provides a nice support for a skid plate, and it provides greater strength to the frame and the engine mounts compared to separate supports cantilevered off the rail. Weighing against those benefits was a concern that a full cross member could interfere with the front diff up-travel. The shallow part of the 4.3 oil pan is offset forward from the block engine mount location, so the cross member layout would need some offset of the engine mounts relative the cross member position under the engine.
After measuring and pondering a while, I decided to go for the cross member approach, with a 1.5" x 3" x 0.120" tube at the center under the pan, and 2" x 3" x 0.120" at the outer ends. To make it easier to pull the engine out, and also allow the oil pan to be pulled with the engine still in place, I decided to make the center section removable while leaving the engine on it's mounts. The rubber engine mount cushions will attach to formed plates welded to the back edge of the fixed cross member tubes.
Here's pics for the build of the removable center section, in order of fab
- The tube was cut in two locations to make bends in the tube, to create 65 degree slopes at each end of a U-shaped part. Took a little planning to figure out the layout... the photo shows the finished cuts, chamfered for later welding
- Started bends using a finger brake, working a little at a time to make a smooth radius- up to the point that the part closed in on the press finger
- Removed the part from the finger brake and clamped an end in a vice, then hand bent the rest of the way (I left the ends long for some leverage). It turned out that my angle layout was a little too tight on the mating straight edges, so I couldn't get the bend all the way to the desired angle. To remedy this, I ran a jig saw up the joint to open the space by a saw kerf width, and then re-chamfered the edges. The additional gap width enabled the bend to reach the planned 65 degree angle, with a tight joint for welding. I clamped the part across the top of the "U" to hold the joints tight for tacking and then final welding. The pic shows the welds at the bends
- I had some 1/2" -20NF bosses around that I had turned previously for something else. They were a good fit, so I put them to use - mounting them to flat end caps
- The next pic shows how the end plates with bosses are welded to the center section
-Finished center section of cross member
Last edited:
CJ3BL
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- #43
Engine Mounts / Cross-Member Continued
The next parts attach the removable center section to the frame rails. Here's pics, in the order of fab:
- First, I cut and finished four plates that match the two end-plates on the removable center section, and used a couple of transfer punches to center punch for drilling mounting holes
- 4 pieces of 1" OD, 1/2" ID DOM tubing were cut for crush tubes, and I faced the ends on my lathe. These were bolted to the threaded bosses of the center section along with the drilled plates. I then welded the crush tubes to both of the plates while positioned in place
- Then cut, fit, and chamfered two U sections cut from 1.5" x 3" x 0.120" tube, to wrap around the end of the plate/crush tube assembly:
- These pieces were then were then welded together. The photo shows them bolted to the removable center section
- The open ends of the "U" on each side will be closed off when I add the side 2" x 3" tubes that extend out to the frame rails. Here's an overview shot. The side tubes shown are rough cut. The fit was then detailed for their final welds.
- Fixtured the parts and welded the 2" x 3" side tubes to the center section / bolt plates of the engine cross-member They are clamped for welding on the "workstation" I made out of an old delta wood lathe bed (that's the same model as my lathe). The lathe bed top is nice and flat, so I can clamp parts to it as well as bolt other tools to it at any position along the top. It supports different tools and fixtures: vices, a sheet metal brake, bead roller, tube bender, tube joint cutter, axle stand, bicycle repair stand, etc...can all be bolted on to it. I don't have much room so having one base to mount several tools works out well - although it requires set up time to change over...
- The last photo is a closer shot of the finished attachment joint for the removable center section
Next up, the lower part of the tube sections that attach to the frame rails will be tapered so that they join along the full inside face of the rail - essentially forming a tall gusset. Then it will all get welded to the rails and the engine mount base plates will then weld to the back edge of the cross-member.
The next parts attach the removable center section to the frame rails. Here's pics, in the order of fab:
- First, I cut and finished four plates that match the two end-plates on the removable center section, and used a couple of transfer punches to center punch for drilling mounting holes
- 4 pieces of 1" OD, 1/2" ID DOM tubing were cut for crush tubes, and I faced the ends on my lathe. These were bolted to the threaded bosses of the center section along with the drilled plates. I then welded the crush tubes to both of the plates while positioned in place
- Then cut, fit, and chamfered two U sections cut from 1.5" x 3" x 0.120" tube, to wrap around the end of the plate/crush tube assembly:
- These pieces were then were then welded together. The photo shows them bolted to the removable center section
- The open ends of the "U" on each side will be closed off when I add the side 2" x 3" tubes that extend out to the frame rails. Here's an overview shot. The side tubes shown are rough cut. The fit was then detailed for their final welds.
- Fixtured the parts and welded the 2" x 3" side tubes to the center section / bolt plates of the engine cross-member They are clamped for welding on the "workstation" I made out of an old delta wood lathe bed (that's the same model as my lathe). The lathe bed top is nice and flat, so I can clamp parts to it as well as bolt other tools to it at any position along the top. It supports different tools and fixtures: vices, a sheet metal brake, bead roller, tube bender, tube joint cutter, axle stand, bicycle repair stand, etc...can all be bolted on to it. I don't have much room so having one base to mount several tools works out well - although it requires set up time to change over...
- The last photo is a closer shot of the finished attachment joint for the removable center section
Next up, the lower part of the tube sections that attach to the frame rails will be tapered so that they join along the full inside face of the rail - essentially forming a tall gusset. Then it will all get welded to the rails and the engine mount base plates will then weld to the back edge of the cross-member.
CJ3BL
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- #44
Engine cross-member wrap up
Measured the outer end lengths needed to position the cross-member drop centered on the 3/4" driver side offset engine, then slit the lower sides of the outer tubes to taper the bottom into a gusset shape the same as the rear frame cross member. Formed and filled the ends the same way. Here's some pics:
The width was final fit to achieve a snug fit between the rails - spreading them just a bit to counter the approximately 1/8” inward rail bow-in that occurred from weld shrinkage during front and rear crossmember frame welds. I used a pipe clamp (with the clamp head reversed) for a spreader to ease the rails outward slightly to allow the engine cross member to slide in place- then removed the clamp. The final fit was snug so it held the crossmember in place with no clamps, but it could be easily adjusted for position with light hammer taps.
The cross-member is set where I wanted it relative to the engine-with 1/2" space between the pan and the cross member to allow flexing of the rubber mounts, and with the top of the side tubes 1" below the top of the frame rails. This spacing provides clearance for the 1 piece steering shaft without needing a notch , and also enables a nice positioning of the lower engine mounts. I have the engine positioned 1 degree up at this point to position the lower engine mounts - with the expectation that the rubber mounts will compress initially and further over time- leaving the engine level or very slightly tipped up at the front. I measured clearance at the diff and cross-member center section and decided that it looked promising. Since I also had the option to tweak the center section for more diff clearance after full suspension cycling, I decided to commit and weld the cross member to the rails:
With the engine resting safe and stable on the 1/2" plywood spacer on the cross-member I disconnected the engine hoist, and decided to cycle the suspension to see how it panned out for cross member to diff clearance. Here's some shots showing the suspension close to ultimate full stuff position. All of the following pics are at the same axle stuff position with both sides stuffed. Here's some thoughts on the clearance:
Next up are the lower engine mounts.
Measured the outer end lengths needed to position the cross-member drop centered on the 3/4" driver side offset engine, then slit the lower sides of the outer tubes to taper the bottom into a gusset shape the same as the rear frame cross member. Formed and filled the ends the same way. Here's some pics:
The width was final fit to achieve a snug fit between the rails - spreading them just a bit to counter the approximately 1/8” inward rail bow-in that occurred from weld shrinkage during front and rear crossmember frame welds. I used a pipe clamp (with the clamp head reversed) for a spreader to ease the rails outward slightly to allow the engine cross member to slide in place- then removed the clamp. The final fit was snug so it held the crossmember in place with no clamps, but it could be easily adjusted for position with light hammer taps.
The cross-member is set where I wanted it relative to the engine-with 1/2" space between the pan and the cross member to allow flexing of the rubber mounts, and with the top of the side tubes 1" below the top of the frame rails. This spacing provides clearance for the 1 piece steering shaft without needing a notch , and also enables a nice positioning of the lower engine mounts. I have the engine positioned 1 degree up at this point to position the lower engine mounts - with the expectation that the rubber mounts will compress initially and further over time- leaving the engine level or very slightly tipped up at the front. I measured clearance at the diff and cross-member center section and decided that it looked promising. Since I also had the option to tweak the center section for more diff clearance after full suspension cycling, I decided to commit and weld the cross member to the rails:
With the engine resting safe and stable on the 1/2" plywood spacer on the cross-member I disconnected the engine hoist, and decided to cycle the suspension to see how it panned out for cross member to diff clearance. Here's some shots showing the suspension close to ultimate full stuff position. All of the following pics are at the same axle stuff position with both sides stuffed. Here's some thoughts on the clearance:
- The "rise" in the diff casting ahead of the annular pinion bearing area is ahead of the cross member at stuff- so no problem there.
- I don't like the height of the GM upper u-bolt plates & U bolt nuts at the rails. They are also temporarily kluged to fit over the diff reinforcing web which is causing the passenger plate to sit high. These pics show the nuts reaching the rail, and I've decided against this flip kit style axle mounting and am going to change to conventional U bolts with nuts at the bottom spring plates. That will enable a bit more stuff height at the final compressed bump stops.
- With the stock style axle mounting U bolt arrangement, the little increase in stuff travel will reduce the diff to cross-member clearance versus what's shown in these pics - but I think it will still clear with the bump stops compressed. As reminded by forum member, I also need to consider pinion movement under torque load- especially reverse as it would kick the pinion end up. If not enough room, I can rebuild the center section with a larger radius corner to make the offending corner follow the oil pan corner curvature more closely with the same minimum pan clearance - which would bring the bottom side of the corner up away from the diff. Could also notch it, but don't like the reduced tube section. I'm leaving it as is for now, as I like the broad flat skid mounting surface that the center section currently has...
Next up are the lower engine mounts.
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CJ3BL
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- #45
Engine Mount Wrap Up
The lower mounts are 0.188" 1018 CR plate, the main section has a formed bend made with my shop press brake, and a curved end cap that is welded on. The curved end cap reinforces the curved top plate- which follows the profile of the round rubber engine mount and its support plate. The rubber mounts are the same as the traditional transfer case torque mount- which is the same as the engine mount on early ford flathead V-8's. I'm using a bolt without the reduction in diameter that the standard t-case mount would have- with a nylock nut rather than a castle nut. Here's pics of the curved cap being formed, the mount parts prepped and ready for welding, and a welded and trimmed mount. These tie in to the crossmember as well as the frame rails. The length differs between the two mounts for the 3/4" offset engine position relative to the rails.
These were then tacked to the rear edge of the cross-member and the frame rail. The engine mount plate sits 1 3/16" below the top of the frame rail, with the front edge of the mount meeting the crossmember tube at the transition of the tube radius to the flat side of the tube. This makes for a nice clean fit.
Here are pics of the tacked passenger mount, tacked driver mount, and final weld driver mount:
The lower mounts are 0.188" 1018 CR plate, the main section has a formed bend made with my shop press brake, and a curved end cap that is welded on. The curved end cap reinforces the curved top plate- which follows the profile of the round rubber engine mount and its support plate. The rubber mounts are the same as the traditional transfer case torque mount- which is the same as the engine mount on early ford flathead V-8's. I'm using a bolt without the reduction in diameter that the standard t-case mount would have- with a nylock nut rather than a castle nut. Here's pics of the curved cap being formed, the mount parts prepped and ready for welding, and a welded and trimmed mount. These tie in to the crossmember as well as the frame rails. The length differs between the two mounts for the 3/4" offset engine position relative to the rails.
These were then tacked to the rear edge of the cross-member and the frame rail. The engine mount plate sits 1 3/16" below the top of the frame rail, with the front edge of the mount meeting the crossmember tube at the transition of the tube radius to the flat side of the tube. This makes for a nice clean fit.
Here are pics of the tacked passenger mount, tacked driver mount, and final weld driver mount:
CJ3BL
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- #46
T-Case Torque Mount
Since I’m posting this build from its beginning, including recapping info from my prior thread on the “old site”, I’ll save you some grief by jumping ahead a bit. I pondered multiple mount ideas, made and installed one, then later cut it off and reworked the cross member and mount to the current design. To avoid wasting your time, I’ll skip the details on the scrapped one. Also, much of the effort was to enable fitting the passenger exhaust between the t-case and rail. I later gave up on that idea when I built the exhaust system. In any event, I like the way the final mount turned out.
Here's the space as it stood before figuring out the mount for the t-case torque ear. The outer edge of the stock mount would contact the exhaust tube at best, and it would be awkward to fit to the flat cross member while clearing the frame bracket.
Here’s pics of the first t-case torque mount - that was scrapped:
Here’s pics of the final version that I’m going with:
Like the original, both versions have rubber pads counteracting both up and down motions of the ear. Both provide a little more support of the underside of the case mounting ear than stock. The final version has the advantage of being simpler, keeps the rubber pads farther away from the potential exhaust, and has a larger pad area.
The next post shows how the final version went together.
Since I’m posting this build from its beginning, including recapping info from my prior thread on the “old site”, I’ll save you some grief by jumping ahead a bit. I pondered multiple mount ideas, made and installed one, then later cut it off and reworked the cross member and mount to the current design. To avoid wasting your time, I’ll skip the details on the scrapped one. Also, much of the effort was to enable fitting the passenger exhaust between the t-case and rail. I later gave up on that idea when I built the exhaust system. In any event, I like the way the final mount turned out.
Here's the space as it stood before figuring out the mount for the t-case torque ear. The outer edge of the stock mount would contact the exhaust tube at best, and it would be awkward to fit to the flat cross member while clearing the frame bracket.
Here’s pics of the first t-case torque mount - that was scrapped:
Here’s pics of the final version that I’m going with:
Like the original, both versions have rubber pads counteracting both up and down motions of the ear. Both provide a little more support of the underside of the case mounting ear than stock. The final version has the advantage of being simpler, keeps the rubber pads farther away from the potential exhaust, and has a larger pad area.
The next post shows how the final version went together.
CJ3BL
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- #47
Transfer Case Torque Mount
Here are a bunch of pics that show how the final mount came together. The main idea was to make a compact wedge that mounts directly to the t-case ear, and which then bolts vertically through the cross member with pads. This keeps the mount structure away from the frame rail as much as possible to fit potential exhaust and gets the rubber pads moved down and away from the exhaust. The shape of the wedge piece provides surfaces to hold one end each fastener captive. The wedge also extends under the t-case ear farther than the stock rubber mount , so it provides a little more mechanical support.
Overview shots of the parts and cross member:
Here's details of the wedge part, which has two 0.5" thick side plates, with a 0.750" wide spacer made from 0.188" flat stock. The space between the side plates is set to capture a 1/2 NF cap screw head and nut, and the overall width matches the t-case ear width.
- First pic shows the bottom side welds
- The bottom side was then ground and filed flat and drilled for the cross member bolt. The second pic here shows the captive fit of the cross-member bolt in the wedge.
- The next two pics shows the top side 0.188" thick spacers fitted and welded. The hole allows for bolt replacement.
- The ends were then trimmed, the welds ground and filed flat on the contact surface to the t-case ear, and the bolt access hole cleaned up with a round file. The hole for the case ear bolt was not drilled until the final assembly step described in the next post.
Here are a bunch of pics that show how the final mount came together. The main idea was to make a compact wedge that mounts directly to the t-case ear, and which then bolts vertically through the cross member with pads. This keeps the mount structure away from the frame rail as much as possible to fit potential exhaust and gets the rubber pads moved down and away from the exhaust. The shape of the wedge piece provides surfaces to hold one end each fastener captive. The wedge also extends under the t-case ear farther than the stock rubber mount , so it provides a little more mechanical support.
Overview shots of the parts and cross member:
Here's details of the wedge part, which has two 0.5" thick side plates, with a 0.750" wide spacer made from 0.188" flat stock. The space between the side plates is set to capture a 1/2 NF cap screw head and nut, and the overall width matches the t-case ear width.
- First pic shows the bottom side welds
- The bottom side was then ground and filed flat and drilled for the cross member bolt. The second pic here shows the captive fit of the cross-member bolt in the wedge.
- The next two pics shows the top side 0.188" thick spacers fitted and welded. The hole allows for bolt replacement.
- The ends were then trimmed, the welds ground and filed flat on the contact surface to the t-case ear, and the bolt access hole cleaned up with a round file. The hole for the case ear bolt was not drilled until the final assembly step described in the next post.
Last edited:
CJ3BL
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- #48
Cross Member Mod for T-Case Mount:
The cross-member side of the mount has a flat 0.188" plate recessed 0.125" in the cross member top. This sets the rubber pad position to support the wedge base, and keeps the rectangular rubber top pad from rotating on the cross member. The 0.125" recess depth also makes for an easy weld joint to the 0.125" adjacent crossmember wall, and allows the lower pad and hardware to fit up inside the cross member so nothing protrudes below. Lastly, the recessed plate replaces the area that had the first design mount welded to it - nothing else to patch! Underneath the flat top plate is a 2.5" OD tube section that encloses and strengthens the underside area that accepts the lower pad and attachment nut. The following pics show the cross member revision sequence:
-First pic shows the crossmember cut to accept the new mount pieces
- The round tube section was welded to the top plate
- Then the top pate/tube assembly was welded into the cross-member
- The fourth pi shows the bottom side, ready for weld
- The last pic shows the underside weld along with associated lower pad
At this point the cross member hole diameter and the hole in the base of the wedge part were both 0.5" to accept the 1/2' bolt to align them for final fit check. In this final check of positioning, the cross member was fully assembled with the upper pad, wedge, 1/2" bolt and nut to the t-case/trans/engine/frame. This allowed the t-case ear bolt hole position on the tapered wedge to be marked while assembled in place to assure it was optimally positioned. The wedge height also needed to be just right before drilling the hole since it needs to align the t-case ear with with the transmission mount height. Fortunately, lots of measuring in planning the part paid off and it fit nicely for height with no adjustment (otherwise I would have welded a shim plate on the wedge or shaved it down before final t-case bolt hole drilling.)
Once fit checked and the t-case bolt hole drilled, then the cross member mounting hole was enlarged to accept the lower pad assembly sleeve and bushing described next.
The next pics were shown previously), but show all of the finished parts to help explain the lower pad arrangement, and also the overall completed installation.
Done!
Next up is mounting of Anti-Rock bars front and rear.
The cross-member side of the mount has a flat 0.188" plate recessed 0.125" in the cross member top. This sets the rubber pad position to support the wedge base, and keeps the rectangular rubber top pad from rotating on the cross member. The 0.125" recess depth also makes for an easy weld joint to the 0.125" adjacent crossmember wall, and allows the lower pad and hardware to fit up inside the cross member so nothing protrudes below. Lastly, the recessed plate replaces the area that had the first design mount welded to it - nothing else to patch! Underneath the flat top plate is a 2.5" OD tube section that encloses and strengthens the underside area that accepts the lower pad and attachment nut. The following pics show the cross member revision sequence:
-First pic shows the crossmember cut to accept the new mount pieces
- The round tube section was welded to the top plate
- Then the top pate/tube assembly was welded into the cross-member
- The fourth pi shows the bottom side, ready for weld
- The last pic shows the underside weld along with associated lower pad
At this point the cross member hole diameter and the hole in the base of the wedge part were both 0.5" to accept the 1/2' bolt to align them for final fit check. In this final check of positioning, the cross member was fully assembled with the upper pad, wedge, 1/2" bolt and nut to the t-case/trans/engine/frame. This allowed the t-case ear bolt hole position on the tapered wedge to be marked while assembled in place to assure it was optimally positioned. The wedge height also needed to be just right before drilling the hole since it needs to align the t-case ear with with the transmission mount height. Fortunately, lots of measuring in planning the part paid off and it fit nicely for height with no adjustment (otherwise I would have welded a shim plate on the wedge or shaved it down before final t-case bolt hole drilling.)
Once fit checked and the t-case bolt hole drilled, then the cross member mounting hole was enlarged to accept the lower pad assembly sleeve and bushing described next.
The next pics were shown previously), but show all of the finished parts to help explain the lower pad arrangement, and also the overall completed installation.
- The rectangular rubber pad is 1/2" thick oil resistant Buna-N rubber, from McMaster Carr. The durometer seems pretty close to the transmission mount rubber.
- The small cylindrical rubber bushing to its right is fiber reinforced oil resistant Buna-N rubber, also from McMaster Carr, 3/4" OD , 1/2" ID.
- The large round lower pad has an integrated molded in metal sleeve. The pad, washer, and nylock nut all come from a poly universal body mount made by Energy Suspension. I have a pile of them around, so have lots of spares. I would prefer the lower pad be rubber like the top pad in order to match the transmission mount level of flexibility - but it's a pretty reasonable durometer, and I don't think that the durometer of the lower pad is as important relative to the transmission mount as the top pad. I went with the poly lower pad and it's thin metal sleeve because it's a great fit to the available space, and the metal sleeve ID fits perfectly around the outside of the fiber reinforced rubber bushing part. The steel sleeve will protect the bushing from being chewed up by the cross-member hole edge, while the inner rubber bushing provides some vibration isolation between the mounting bolt and cross-member. The lower pad thickness is also just right to have the mounting nut and bolt tip end up flush with the lower edge of the cross member after trimming the bolt to length.
Done!
Next up is mounting of Anti-Rock bars front and rear.
CJ3BL
Well-known member
- Thread starter
- #49
Anti-Rocks
I'm using modified Anti-Rock torsion bars front and rear- Currie branded when I bought them long ago... now branded Rock Jock. My intent is to run soft springs and control body roll with the anti-rocks. I think that the anti-rocks are mild enough in rate that I won't use disconnects. The rear one mounts to the leading edge of the stack joint rise. I positioned the frame stack joint so that the torsion bar would use longer arm hole position on the stock bar to keep the rate soft. (I later modified the bar to double shear mounting of the heims and tweaked the length when setting up the axle). I also used a 2" 0.120 wall DOM mounting tube rather than the smaller, thinner Currie part as I want the tube to be a meaningful cross member as well as housing the torsion bar. The larger tube requires new bushings, so I turned some from Black Delrin. Here's a comparison shot of the larger tube and bushings on the left vs. stock on the right:
Front Anti Rock Mounts:
The front bar will run open without a full tube, and will be positioned between the grill and winch on top of the rails. Not having a tube enclosure in the center allows the bar to be moved forward towards the winch to fit as much arm length as possible, and also to clear steering box plumbing. The arms will still end up pretty short as there's so much other stuff up front limiting bar position options. (Later on, I decided to add JKS "flex connects" to soften and be able to tune the anti-rock effective rate given the short arms).
There are already threaded bosses in the frame rails for mounting the front torsion bar. Their spacing allows some fine tuning of the final bar position in building the bushing mounts. To prep for fitting the bar and mounts, I installed the 8274 on the bumper. Checked the Anti-Rock positioning and made the mounts from sections of 2" x 0.120" DOM tube, faced on my lathe, plus some sections of rectangular tube. They use the same homemade delrin bushings as are used at the back bar. The supports were clamped to be parallel for the welds. When mounted on the rails, the overall spacing between the bushing faces ends up at 30" for correct fit of the torsion bar and arms. Here's how those went together:
Rear anti-rock mounts next...
I'm using modified Anti-Rock torsion bars front and rear- Currie branded when I bought them long ago... now branded Rock Jock. My intent is to run soft springs and control body roll with the anti-rocks. I think that the anti-rocks are mild enough in rate that I won't use disconnects. The rear one mounts to the leading edge of the stack joint rise. I positioned the frame stack joint so that the torsion bar would use longer arm hole position on the stock bar to keep the rate soft. (I later modified the bar to double shear mounting of the heims and tweaked the length when setting up the axle). I also used a 2" 0.120 wall DOM mounting tube rather than the smaller, thinner Currie part as I want the tube to be a meaningful cross member as well as housing the torsion bar. The larger tube requires new bushings, so I turned some from Black Delrin. Here's a comparison shot of the larger tube and bushings on the left vs. stock on the right:
Front Anti Rock Mounts:
The front bar will run open without a full tube, and will be positioned between the grill and winch on top of the rails. Not having a tube enclosure in the center allows the bar to be moved forward towards the winch to fit as much arm length as possible, and also to clear steering box plumbing. The arms will still end up pretty short as there's so much other stuff up front limiting bar position options. (Later on, I decided to add JKS "flex connects" to soften and be able to tune the anti-rock effective rate given the short arms).
There are already threaded bosses in the frame rails for mounting the front torsion bar. Their spacing allows some fine tuning of the final bar position in building the bushing mounts. To prep for fitting the bar and mounts, I installed the 8274 on the bumper. Checked the Anti-Rock positioning and made the mounts from sections of 2" x 0.120" DOM tube, faced on my lathe, plus some sections of rectangular tube. They use the same homemade delrin bushings as are used at the back bar. The supports were clamped to be parallel for the welds. When mounted on the rails, the overall spacing between the bushing faces ends up at 30" for correct fit of the torsion bar and arms. Here's how those went together:
Rear anti-rock mounts next...
CJ3BL
Well-known member
- Thread starter
- #50
Rear Anti-Rock Mounts:
As described earlier, I'm using a 2" 0.120" wall DOM tube for the rear bar housing- bigger and thicker than the stock Currie tube as it also serves as a cross member. It mounts on the slope of the rear stack joint, which puts it right behind the floor rise. Here's pics that show how that one went together:
- The first photo shows gussets made from sections of 1.5" x 3" x 0.120" tube to support the DOM tube on the frame. The weld is short because most of the material will be cut away. Welding the halves together first made it easier to trim to fit.
- The next photo shows the gussets cut and fit to the 2" DOM.
- The next two photos show the parts clamped to the frame rails to position the gussets on the tube in order to tack weld the gusset corners, plus place a full weld along the top gusset-tube seam to lock their position
- Pulled the tube assembly back off the frame so I could finish the welds in a more convenient position. Pic shows final gusset - tube welds
- The last pic shows the anti-rock mount welded to frame
As described earlier, I'm using a 2" 0.120" wall DOM tube for the rear bar housing- bigger and thicker than the stock Currie tube as it also serves as a cross member. It mounts on the slope of the rear stack joint, which puts it right behind the floor rise. Here's pics that show how that one went together:
- The first photo shows gussets made from sections of 1.5" x 3" x 0.120" tube to support the DOM tube on the frame. The weld is short because most of the material will be cut away. Welding the halves together first made it easier to trim to fit.
- The next photo shows the gussets cut and fit to the 2" DOM.
- The next two photos show the parts clamped to the frame rails to position the gussets on the tube in order to tack weld the gusset corners, plus place a full weld along the top gusset-tube seam to lock their position
- Pulled the tube assembly back off the frame so I could finish the welds in a more convenient position. Pic shows final gusset - tube welds
- The last pic shows the anti-rock mount welded to frame
Attachments
CJ3BL
Well-known member
- Thread starter
- #51
Bigger Tires, Bigger Axle
Up to this point in the build, I planned to run the 33" tires that I had, and to use the original CJ3B narrow track rear D44 housing that I had previously built with an ARB and Summers Brothers full float axle and hub set up.
A number of unresolved topics were bubbling along in the background of the build that converged to change course on that part of the plan. Forum member comments helped me conclude the obvious...
I needed:
BIGGER TIRES + BIGGER AXLE
Overall, I still wanted to achieve a well balanced, not real heavy, capable traditional style trail cruiser. A lot of upcoming work would lock in design elements that would be hard to change later, and I realized that the narrow track rear axle, 33's , and details associated with them were a out of balance with the rest of the build. It was time to choose which fork in the road to take...
Here's some of the issues:
The original housing rear D44 had small thin wall tubes, and narrow track width. It was workable, but forum feedback pointed out the tendency for awkward tracking in muddy ruts with the much narrower rear with wide track front. Details like different spring plates, U -bolts etc front vs. rear and lack of space along the frame rails for larger diameter reservoir shocks were also concerns. It also had drum brakes and I was thinking of changing to discs but hadn't figured out a good approach with the Summers Bros hub and spindle set up. Getting rid of the stock drive line brake also had me cogitating on a rear axle parking brake set up.
As described previously, I had already upgraded the front axle from the stock D27 to a GM truck based D44. It's set up to CJ wide track width, has heavier wall 2.75" tubes, GM flat top knuckles & spindles, Ford hubs, Yukon axles, Ford/GM discs, and ARB. Moving to a GM truck based 2.75" tube housing with CJ wide track rear width, stronger axles, full float using GM/Ford outers (as on the front) and disc brakes would balance nicely with the front axle, solving a bunch of the above issues. With upgrading the strength of the rear to match the front, I could readily move up to 35's. It's pushing it on the D18 xfer case, but I think it's a workable balance with the V-6 and my not very heavy right foot. The decision to go to 35's was important for upcoming work of the frame rock sliders, as will be seen.
More rear axle details in the next post
Up to this point in the build, I planned to run the 33" tires that I had, and to use the original CJ3B narrow track rear D44 housing that I had previously built with an ARB and Summers Brothers full float axle and hub set up.
A number of unresolved topics were bubbling along in the background of the build that converged to change course on that part of the plan. Forum member comments helped me conclude the obvious...
I needed:
BIGGER TIRES + BIGGER AXLE
Overall, I still wanted to achieve a well balanced, not real heavy, capable traditional style trail cruiser. A lot of upcoming work would lock in design elements that would be hard to change later, and I realized that the narrow track rear axle, 33's , and details associated with them were a out of balance with the rest of the build. It was time to choose which fork in the road to take...
Here's some of the issues:
The original housing rear D44 had small thin wall tubes, and narrow track width. It was workable, but forum feedback pointed out the tendency for awkward tracking in muddy ruts with the much narrower rear with wide track front. Details like different spring plates, U -bolts etc front vs. rear and lack of space along the frame rails for larger diameter reservoir shocks were also concerns. It also had drum brakes and I was thinking of changing to discs but hadn't figured out a good approach with the Summers Bros hub and spindle set up. Getting rid of the stock drive line brake also had me cogitating on a rear axle parking brake set up.
As described previously, I had already upgraded the front axle from the stock D27 to a GM truck based D44. It's set up to CJ wide track width, has heavier wall 2.75" tubes, GM flat top knuckles & spindles, Ford hubs, Yukon axles, Ford/GM discs, and ARB. Moving to a GM truck based 2.75" tube housing with CJ wide track rear width, stronger axles, full float using GM/Ford outers (as on the front) and disc brakes would balance nicely with the front axle, solving a bunch of the above issues. With upgrading the strength of the rear to match the front, I could readily move up to 35's. It's pushing it on the D18 xfer case, but I think it's a workable balance with the V-6 and my not very heavy right foot. The decision to go to 35's was important for upcoming work of the frame rock sliders, as will be seen.
More rear axle details in the next post
Last edited:
CJ3BL
Well-known member
- Thread starter
- #52
Tires & Rear Axle continued:
On the 35" tire selection (which occurred a while back), I decided to go with 35x12.50R15 MTR-K's on my current Weld forged Al non-beadlock wheels. I think the MTR-K's will be well suited to my intended varied use of the rig on road and off. Thought long and hard about all the great options that are out there, including going taller, but I think these will strike a good balance for the types of wheeling and road driving I'll be using the rig for, and fit with the overall build direction. Bought them on line with local pick up and mounting. Only took a couple of days to get them home, then I sold the 33's. I'm happy I made the switch:
On the rear axle, I decided to have the folks at R&P near Portland build me a rear Dana 44, reusing my existing ARB diff and gears. Note: the R&P business changed later on and I think they are only doing full rig builds now. (The following description is in the context of the earlier business timeframe).
The front Dana 44 that R&P built is 56" wms-wms late CJ wide track width, and I decided to go for 54.5" wms-wms CJ wide track width at the rear. The old axle was 50.5" , so this adds 2" per side, with same offset of the center section for the Dana 18 T case. I think the late CJ specs make some good sense. The rear should track well to the front as far as ruts/ snow as the difference in track width is small, while the slightly narrower rear doesn't stick the tires out beyond the tub quite so far, and helps a little with clearing obstacles on turns. In addition to the width change, the new rear housing will have larger 2.75" diameter 3/8" wall thickness tubes that match the front axle.
Discussed the build details including the Full Float and brake configuration with Rich at R&P (who is one really sharp guy!):
For the Full Float arrangement, he had two different approaches to use the GM disc brake caliper/Ford hub/rotor set up that I'd prefer to use to match the front. One approach is along the lines of their full float kit they sell that bolts right up to standard Dana 44 tapered axle housing outer flanges. For that, they modify GM Truck small bearing spindles to fit the ID of the standard Dana 44 housing end flange and also bore them to accept 30 spline shafts. It's a great approach for an existing housing. They have a second approach that they can do when building a new housing. This uses custom machined housing ends that directly fit the standard GM spindle locating OD. The spindles are bored to accept 30 spline shafts, but retain their standard locating OD - this then allows a spare bored spindle to be used on either the front or the back when needed for a trail repair. Pretty cool. I plan to use a spare spindle with bearings and hub on my tire carrier set up). R&P built the housing and installed my ARB, and I ordered the axles and did the final assembly of the outers and brakes.
They have a massive axle tube press, and nice alignment tools for the housing build - a whole different league compared to what I could pull off in my garage, so I was happy that they built the custom housing.
With the housing build underway, I returned to more frame stuff - rock sliders.
On the 35" tire selection (which occurred a while back), I decided to go with 35x12.50R15 MTR-K's on my current Weld forged Al non-beadlock wheels. I think the MTR-K's will be well suited to my intended varied use of the rig on road and off. Thought long and hard about all the great options that are out there, including going taller, but I think these will strike a good balance for the types of wheeling and road driving I'll be using the rig for, and fit with the overall build direction. Bought them on line with local pick up and mounting. Only took a couple of days to get them home, then I sold the 33's. I'm happy I made the switch:
On the rear axle, I decided to have the folks at R&P near Portland build me a rear Dana 44, reusing my existing ARB diff and gears. Note: the R&P business changed later on and I think they are only doing full rig builds now. (The following description is in the context of the earlier business timeframe).
The front Dana 44 that R&P built is 56" wms-wms late CJ wide track width, and I decided to go for 54.5" wms-wms CJ wide track width at the rear. The old axle was 50.5" , so this adds 2" per side, with same offset of the center section for the Dana 18 T case. I think the late CJ specs make some good sense. The rear should track well to the front as far as ruts/ snow as the difference in track width is small, while the slightly narrower rear doesn't stick the tires out beyond the tub quite so far, and helps a little with clearing obstacles on turns. In addition to the width change, the new rear housing will have larger 2.75" diameter 3/8" wall thickness tubes that match the front axle.
Discussed the build details including the Full Float and brake configuration with Rich at R&P (who is one really sharp guy!):
For the Full Float arrangement, he had two different approaches to use the GM disc brake caliper/Ford hub/rotor set up that I'd prefer to use to match the front. One approach is along the lines of their full float kit they sell that bolts right up to standard Dana 44 tapered axle housing outer flanges. For that, they modify GM Truck small bearing spindles to fit the ID of the standard Dana 44 housing end flange and also bore them to accept 30 spline shafts. It's a great approach for an existing housing. They have a second approach that they can do when building a new housing. This uses custom machined housing ends that directly fit the standard GM spindle locating OD. The spindles are bored to accept 30 spline shafts, but retain their standard locating OD - this then allows a spare bored spindle to be used on either the front or the back when needed for a trail repair. Pretty cool. I plan to use a spare spindle with bearings and hub on my tire carrier set up). R&P built the housing and installed my ARB, and I ordered the axles and did the final assembly of the outers and brakes.
They have a massive axle tube press, and nice alignment tools for the housing build - a whole different league compared to what I could pull off in my garage, so I was happy that they built the custom housing.
With the housing build underway, I returned to more frame stuff - rock sliders.
CJ3BL
Well-known member
- Thread starter
- #53
Rock Sliders
This first shot is an upside down mock up showing partially completed rock slider rails and outrigger supports as a reference for the descriptions that follow.
The sliders and outriggers are 2" x 3" x 0.120" tube. The sliders are angled to follow the original body angle. The best i could measure, the original body taper angle was 17 degrees on one side and 18 degrees on the other side of the cowl. I went with 17.5 degrees as the target. The sliders and outriggers will attach to each other and to the frame rails with their top surfaces co-planar. The assembly provides the primary floor supports, roll cage base tie in locations, and the surface for the body side panels to attach to. The frame attachment ends of the outriggers have a taper on the bottom side similar to the the rear fuel tank cross-member - so they attach to the full height of the frame rails - essentially a gusset shape.
The "fender step" that the front fenders attach to will be made from 0.120" rather than body sheet metal. The tops of these will be flush with the top of the slider, which simplifies the body panel ie the step is part of the rock slider, not the body sheet metal.
There are no body mounts. The steel floor will be welded to the rails, outriggers, and sliders. Body side panels will either be detachable via machine screws through their flanges or be welded, then sealed to hold out rain. Rather than adding body armor, my intent is to make the panels easier to repair or replace than on a conventional body assembly.
Here's some step by step shots of the rock rail portion
- The slider rails were cut to make the body angle, then chamfered, ready for welds
- Welded the first slider rail. The front section length of the rail includes a lengthened door opening in front of the angle joint of the body. Extending the door opening in front of the body angle joint widens the rear of the tub. I plan a 60" width for the tub. My old body measured 57.5", while the factory drawing shows 57.125". CJ7's are spec'd at 59.9" I am setting the outrigger length / slider width to achieve my targeted 60" body width with 5/8" slider protrusion on each side. This will result in about a 3.75-4" lengthening of the door opening in front of the angle joint. (I did the trig but rounded and the range reflects how accurately I hit the angle on the sliders...) On a related note, I also plan to make the front fenders wider. A mild high line move up will push them out a little, but I'll also add a little additional width to tie in with the tub width visually, and to extend further over the front tires given the wider 56" wms-wms Dana 44. Not sure if I'll take the fenders all the way out to 60" or not, but wider than stock. I think it will work out nice with the higher 3B hood.
-I was worried about how well the second slider angle would match, especially since the rails are long and my measurement of angle is over a short distance. While the second slider was prepped to the same angle, I also clamped it to the first welded rail to try to match them closely
Even with this clamping approach, weld shrinkage moved the angle around a bit as I checked it after welding each face. For the final inside corner, I preloaded the rail against the other one a bit with some shims and clamps, anticipating which way the shrinkage would push it. When it cooled they were really close to each other over the full length. With the long sides clamped to the table top, the tips of the free ends were within a 1/16". The angles were 17 - 17.5". I was pleased.
Then I cut the outriggers and formed tapered ends- by the same method as the rear cross member tapered ends shown previously. Here's pics and comments:
- Forming the bends: The press here is just used to clamp the part to the old lathe chuck- which is the mandrel for bending the ends. They are bent by hand to get started, then taken the rest of the way with the clamp bearing on the part and the frame of the press. Pretty easy- no big force required.
- Here's all the formed outriggers. I worked to get a consistent angle so the fit of the height of the taper to the frame rail is consistent. (The angle / filler opening shape is what counts - the length variation of the the formed ends doesn't matter as they will be trimmed once the filler plates are in). I checked them as they were formed using the template that I'll use to cut the filler plates that will be welded into the tapered opening. Tuned out pretty consistent.
Next up, the outrigger taper filler pieces were cut, welded in, and the overall outrigger gusset shape trimmed to the right height to match the frame rail it welds to.
- Made a sheet metal template for the flller pieces that complete the tapered end of the outriggers. This made filler piece layout easier, and produced more consistent tapers on all of the outrigger assemblies. Scribed and cut out a dozen of the little triangle pieces and fit them to the slider outrigger tapered ends. Chamfered the joints and welded them up.
- The ends were trimmed to achieve the desired gusset height, edge straightness and perpendicularity for mounting to the frame rails.
I dialed them in gradually with an angle grinder followed by a vixen file. For the 4 wider outriggers there are three dimensional aspects that are being set with this final trim. The tapered ends need to be squared to the tube faces, the length of the outrigger is set to give the final desired rock slider/outer body panel position, and the height of the tapered end is set to fit well on the frame rail. The same is true of the two short front outriggers, except the length will be set after mocking up the position on the frame. I want to cut the outer angle on these so that their length places them right next to the front fender mounting face on the slider. The first trimming picture shows the fit check set up. The second shows all of the trimmed parts, set against a scrap of 2"x 5" tube to show how they will fit against the frame rail. (They are upside down in the photo- when mounted on the frame rail the tapers will point downward) With the top faces of the outriggers flush to the top of the frame rails, the lower edge of the outrigger taper ends just above the radius of the frame rail tube. This will make for a nice smooth weld transition, and it spreads outrigger loading across the full face of the rail.
More in the next post...
This first shot is an upside down mock up showing partially completed rock slider rails and outrigger supports as a reference for the descriptions that follow.
The sliders and outriggers are 2" x 3" x 0.120" tube. The sliders are angled to follow the original body angle. The best i could measure, the original body taper angle was 17 degrees on one side and 18 degrees on the other side of the cowl. I went with 17.5 degrees as the target. The sliders and outriggers will attach to each other and to the frame rails with their top surfaces co-planar. The assembly provides the primary floor supports, roll cage base tie in locations, and the surface for the body side panels to attach to. The frame attachment ends of the outriggers have a taper on the bottom side similar to the the rear fuel tank cross-member - so they attach to the full height of the frame rails - essentially a gusset shape.
The "fender step" that the front fenders attach to will be made from 0.120" rather than body sheet metal. The tops of these will be flush with the top of the slider, which simplifies the body panel ie the step is part of the rock slider, not the body sheet metal.
There are no body mounts. The steel floor will be welded to the rails, outriggers, and sliders. Body side panels will either be detachable via machine screws through their flanges or be welded, then sealed to hold out rain. Rather than adding body armor, my intent is to make the panels easier to repair or replace than on a conventional body assembly.
Here's some step by step shots of the rock rail portion
- The slider rails were cut to make the body angle, then chamfered, ready for welds
- Welded the first slider rail. The front section length of the rail includes a lengthened door opening in front of the angle joint of the body. Extending the door opening in front of the body angle joint widens the rear of the tub. I plan a 60" width for the tub. My old body measured 57.5", while the factory drawing shows 57.125". CJ7's are spec'd at 59.9" I am setting the outrigger length / slider width to achieve my targeted 60" body width with 5/8" slider protrusion on each side. This will result in about a 3.75-4" lengthening of the door opening in front of the angle joint. (I did the trig but rounded and the range reflects how accurately I hit the angle on the sliders...) On a related note, I also plan to make the front fenders wider. A mild high line move up will push them out a little, but I'll also add a little additional width to tie in with the tub width visually, and to extend further over the front tires given the wider 56" wms-wms Dana 44. Not sure if I'll take the fenders all the way out to 60" or not, but wider than stock. I think it will work out nice with the higher 3B hood.
-I was worried about how well the second slider angle would match, especially since the rails are long and my measurement of angle is over a short distance. While the second slider was prepped to the same angle, I also clamped it to the first welded rail to try to match them closely
Even with this clamping approach, weld shrinkage moved the angle around a bit as I checked it after welding each face. For the final inside corner, I preloaded the rail against the other one a bit with some shims and clamps, anticipating which way the shrinkage would push it. When it cooled they were really close to each other over the full length. With the long sides clamped to the table top, the tips of the free ends were within a 1/16". The angles were 17 - 17.5". I was pleased.
Then I cut the outriggers and formed tapered ends- by the same method as the rear cross member tapered ends shown previously. Here's pics and comments:
- Forming the bends: The press here is just used to clamp the part to the old lathe chuck- which is the mandrel for bending the ends. They are bent by hand to get started, then taken the rest of the way with the clamp bearing on the part and the frame of the press. Pretty easy- no big force required.
- Here's all the formed outriggers. I worked to get a consistent angle so the fit of the height of the taper to the frame rail is consistent. (The angle / filler opening shape is what counts - the length variation of the the formed ends doesn't matter as they will be trimmed once the filler plates are in). I checked them as they were formed using the template that I'll use to cut the filler plates that will be welded into the tapered opening. Tuned out pretty consistent.
Next up, the outrigger taper filler pieces were cut, welded in, and the overall outrigger gusset shape trimmed to the right height to match the frame rail it welds to.
- Made a sheet metal template for the flller pieces that complete the tapered end of the outriggers. This made filler piece layout easier, and produced more consistent tapers on all of the outrigger assemblies. Scribed and cut out a dozen of the little triangle pieces and fit them to the slider outrigger tapered ends. Chamfered the joints and welded them up.
- The ends were trimmed to achieve the desired gusset height, edge straightness and perpendicularity for mounting to the frame rails.
I dialed them in gradually with an angle grinder followed by a vixen file. For the 4 wider outriggers there are three dimensional aspects that are being set with this final trim. The tapered ends need to be squared to the tube faces, the length of the outrigger is set to give the final desired rock slider/outer body panel position, and the height of the tapered end is set to fit well on the frame rail. The same is true of the two short front outriggers, except the length will be set after mocking up the position on the frame. I want to cut the outer angle on these so that their length places them right next to the front fender mounting face on the slider. The first trimming picture shows the fit check set up. The second shows all of the trimmed parts, set against a scrap of 2"x 5" tube to show how they will fit against the frame rail. (They are upside down in the photo- when mounted on the frame rail the tapers will point downward) With the top faces of the outriggers flush to the top of the frame rails, the lower edge of the outrigger taper ends just above the radius of the frame rail tube. This will make for a nice smooth weld transition, and it spreads outrigger loading across the full face of the rail.
More in the next post...
Last edited:
CJ3BL
Well-known member
- Thread starter
- #54
Rock Sliders continued
Assembling the Rock Sliders lays the foundation for building the rear tub so it needed to be positioned accurately along the frame. I want the short front outrigger supports to sit just behind the leading corner of front fender mounting "step"at the back end of the fender. On the other end of the slider, I want the outrigger to sit just ahead of the rear tire at full stuff. Since the slider and body share the same angle at the door, the slider positioning along the frame rail determines where the body angle joint in the door ends up. I started by welding the center outrigger to the slider, as I want that outrigger to intersect the slider at the angle joint of the slider / door opening so it's well supported for side hits next to the seat. Getting this first outrigger in place makes it easier to mock up the position along the rail to check other considerations. Here's a pic of it clamped to my table saw top to keep all of the tube pieces coplanar:
To refine where the slider would sit on the frame rails, I mocked up the cowl / firewall to confirm how much stretch I want in the engine compartment. In general, my approach has been to work back from the grill, positioning the radiator, engine, and drivetrain, anticipating body fit, but also planning to adjust the body as needed to fit around the mechanicals. In my layout drawings I originally estimated that I would stretch 3.75' in the engine bay between the grill face and the firewall. With the grill, radiator, fan, and engine mounting positions firm, the firewall/cowl was set up again, along with some fender positioning checks, and this confirmed that I could stretch 2.5" vs. stock and have everything fit well - so I didn't need the 3.75" I originally estimated. The difference can be used to add to the tub space. The original engine bay was 32" from grill face to firewall. Here's the mock-up set at 34.5", which is what I'm going with:
Referencing the above, the fenders will be "highlined" as on Meiser's influential "Rango" Willys build on the old site.That will reduce or eliminate the fender-body gap to be filled. (If needed I'll lengthen the fender not the body taper.) Lots of other stuff to do before I get there though...
I then clamped the rock sliders to the frame to determine positioning of the slider along the length of the frame rail, referencing the lower corner of the cowl /body panel where the fender mounts to the fender "step" (the step was cut off the body panel in the pic, but it's clear where it goes!) sThe mock up also also determined the position of the front outrigger angle cut so it's length and angle sets it on the angled section of the slider just behind where the fender mounting step/ lower body corner will be. Here's the slider clamped to establish it's position on the frame rails:
The front outriggers were then trimmed to length and welded on to the sliders. The assembly was then clamped to the frame again to check fit and to start on making the front fender "steps". Here's an overhead view of the sliders mocked up to the rails. The front of the slider tubes will be cut back to about 1" ahead of the front outrigger (at the top of the tube), and at the angle of the fender slope. I left extra material so I could trim after positioning the outrigger on the frame rails. (Note: there's no rear axle in this shot, which explains the "super narrow track" tire position...)
Here's an underside shot showing how the outriggers tie into the rails:
To finalize the rear outrigger position I needed to mount and cycle the rear axle, which I didn't have yet (and the old axle was also in Portland to transfer its ARB). So, in the mean time, I made the front fender steps for the front of the slider.
Assembling the Rock Sliders lays the foundation for building the rear tub so it needed to be positioned accurately along the frame. I want the short front outrigger supports to sit just behind the leading corner of front fender mounting "step"at the back end of the fender. On the other end of the slider, I want the outrigger to sit just ahead of the rear tire at full stuff. Since the slider and body share the same angle at the door, the slider positioning along the frame rail determines where the body angle joint in the door ends up. I started by welding the center outrigger to the slider, as I want that outrigger to intersect the slider at the angle joint of the slider / door opening so it's well supported for side hits next to the seat. Getting this first outrigger in place makes it easier to mock up the position along the rail to check other considerations. Here's a pic of it clamped to my table saw top to keep all of the tube pieces coplanar:
To refine where the slider would sit on the frame rails, I mocked up the cowl / firewall to confirm how much stretch I want in the engine compartment. In general, my approach has been to work back from the grill, positioning the radiator, engine, and drivetrain, anticipating body fit, but also planning to adjust the body as needed to fit around the mechanicals. In my layout drawings I originally estimated that I would stretch 3.75' in the engine bay between the grill face and the firewall. With the grill, radiator, fan, and engine mounting positions firm, the firewall/cowl was set up again, along with some fender positioning checks, and this confirmed that I could stretch 2.5" vs. stock and have everything fit well - so I didn't need the 3.75" I originally estimated. The difference can be used to add to the tub space. The original engine bay was 32" from grill face to firewall. Here's the mock-up set at 34.5", which is what I'm going with:
Referencing the above, the fenders will be "highlined" as on Meiser's influential "Rango" Willys build on the old site.That will reduce or eliminate the fender-body gap to be filled. (If needed I'll lengthen the fender not the body taper.) Lots of other stuff to do before I get there though...
I then clamped the rock sliders to the frame to determine positioning of the slider along the length of the frame rail, referencing the lower corner of the cowl /body panel where the fender mounts to the fender "step" (the step was cut off the body panel in the pic, but it's clear where it goes!) sThe mock up also also determined the position of the front outrigger angle cut so it's length and angle sets it on the angled section of the slider just behind where the fender mounting step/ lower body corner will be. Here's the slider clamped to establish it's position on the frame rails:
The front outriggers were then trimmed to length and welded on to the sliders. The assembly was then clamped to the frame again to check fit and to start on making the front fender "steps". Here's an overhead view of the sliders mocked up to the rails. The front of the slider tubes will be cut back to about 1" ahead of the front outrigger (at the top of the tube), and at the angle of the fender slope. I left extra material so I could trim after positioning the outrigger on the frame rails. (Note: there's no rear axle in this shot, which explains the "super narrow track" tire position...)
Here's an underside shot showing how the outriggers tie into the rails:
To finalize the rear outrigger position I needed to mount and cycle the rear axle, which I didn't have yet (and the old axle was also in Portland to transfer its ARB). So, in the mean time, I made the front fender steps for the front of the slider.
CJ3BL
Well-known member
- Thread starter
- #55
Here's some step by step pics of the slider fender steps going together. All pieces are 0.125" flat stock. In these pics you can see radiused corners that wrap around the outer radius of the fender panel. The stock sheet metal step fender mounting surface is just flat and doesn't extend to the end of the fender. I thought the curve at the tip would be nice to help keep the lower corner of the fender from tearing off so easily, but later on I decided to cut the curve off the step and fill the gap, because I ended up going a little wider with the fender than I initially estimated. The curve was a clever idea while it lasted... You can also see that the fender mounting bosses are welded inside the leading edge plate, rather than being through holes in sheet metal as in the original. I think these can take a harder hit than the original sheet metal.
Once the steps were fabbed, then they were positioned and welded to the the sliders. Filler caps were then made and welded to the open end of the slider tube coplanar with the fender mounting surface of the fender steps:
And here's an overall view of the completed slider fender steps:
Once the steps were fabbed, then they were positioned and welded to the the sliders. Filler caps were then made and welded to the open end of the slider tube coplanar with the fender mounting surface of the fender steps:
And here's an overall view of the completed slider fender steps:
CJ3BL
Well-known member
- Thread starter
- #56
Rock Slider Wrap Up
I wanted to cycle the rear suspension with the axle and tires in place to check fit with the rock sliders so that I can determine where to position the rear slider outrigger. Since I was waiting for the new rear axle and my old one was also not available, I made a dummy axle out of some bits and pieces for mock up purposes. The wheel mounting flanges are welded to 2" DOM that I bored to slide over some 1.75" seamed tube I had around. The crude straight tube axle with the tires sticking way out reminds me of a soap box derby car. Cheesy, but why not?! Here it's mounted with the single main leaf from the spring pack, for ease of cycling. I also added some clamps to set the wms-wms to the correct width for articulated cycle check.
Used this set up to check the rock slider rear outrigger position relative the rear tires. Decided to set them a little ways ahead of the full stuff tire edge. The reason for this is that the rock slider design will also extend into wheel well arches in the wheel opening itself, and the wheel well tub panels will be welded to the top side of the wheel arches. I left space for those details behind the outrigger.
Once the location was set, then the outriggers were welded to the rock slider tubes. Then the slider assemblies were clamped to the frame rails with some 2x5 and 2x4 tubing running crosswise under the frame rails along with some 3" tall tube spacers to support the sliders and set their position level with the frame.
Then tacked in place, followed by finish welds. Had a bit of trouble with one weld. I was cruising along laying a bead on the vertical side, then just after crossing the prior filler plate weld on the side of the outrigger, I had an abrupt flare up that splattered out a little blob of metal onto the tungsten and made a small hole at the weld. I stopped immediately. I don't think I touched down the tip...and it behaved different than that. It seemed to be a localized contaminant that suddenly flared and spit metal out of the weld to leave a small hole. Could have been some oxide inside the tube at the prior weld bead, or maybe grinder grit. Not sure. I'm thinking it was most likely a bit of grinder grit embedded in the end of of the outrigger edge from when I trimmed it to fit the rail - even though I hit it with a file after grinding, and cleaned thoroughly with acetone. Took a break and then resumed by drilling into the little crater with small drill, and cleaned the edges with a conical burr, hit it with a scratch brush, then acetone wipe down. I tried welding it again to fill the hole, but still had trouble with strange arc color, bead not acting right, and a rusty orange deposit on the surface afterwards. Bummer! Tried removing some more material, being more aggressive with the burr to make sure I was in clean metal, then made a circular patch about 1/4" diam and welded it in. This weld went OK. I finished the patch with a file, then finished the original bead. This little set back really had me bummed, but it turned out fine, and fortunately was a low stress area on the parts.
Finished up the rest of the welds just fine. Here's what they look like with all the clamps removed:
With a long bubble level laid across the sliders from side to side, the outer slider tubes sit just a hair under 1/8" higher than the center frame rails. The overall level from slider to slider is good, i.e. both slider sides lifted from weld shrinkage by the same amount. I was of course aiming to have the frame rails and sliders sit perfectly co-planar after welding, so it's a little disappointing that I didn't achieve that- but it's not noticeable visually and is very workable. I think that shrinkage from the upper rail welds, combined with some flexibility of the outer 5" face of the frame rail caused the outriggers to pull upward even though they were thoroughly clamped.I still need to flip the frame over to do the bottom outrigger-to-rail welds, and will clamp everything well when I do those. The shrink from those may pull the outriggers back down a bit. It probably would have been better to weld the outrigger/rail top joint, then the bottom, then the sides...but I didn't want to tear everything down yet to get at the bottom welds, or do it overhead. Overall, I'm pretty happy with how they turned out.
Next up will add some trianglution with diagonal floor supports using smaller square tubes.
I wanted to cycle the rear suspension with the axle and tires in place to check fit with the rock sliders so that I can determine where to position the rear slider outrigger. Since I was waiting for the new rear axle and my old one was also not available, I made a dummy axle out of some bits and pieces for mock up purposes. The wheel mounting flanges are welded to 2" DOM that I bored to slide over some 1.75" seamed tube I had around. The crude straight tube axle with the tires sticking way out reminds me of a soap box derby car. Cheesy, but why not?! Here it's mounted with the single main leaf from the spring pack, for ease of cycling. I also added some clamps to set the wms-wms to the correct width for articulated cycle check.
Used this set up to check the rock slider rear outrigger position relative the rear tires. Decided to set them a little ways ahead of the full stuff tire edge. The reason for this is that the rock slider design will also extend into wheel well arches in the wheel opening itself, and the wheel well tub panels will be welded to the top side of the wheel arches. I left space for those details behind the outrigger.
Once the location was set, then the outriggers were welded to the rock slider tubes. Then the slider assemblies were clamped to the frame rails with some 2x5 and 2x4 tubing running crosswise under the frame rails along with some 3" tall tube spacers to support the sliders and set their position level with the frame.
Then tacked in place, followed by finish welds. Had a bit of trouble with one weld. I was cruising along laying a bead on the vertical side, then just after crossing the prior filler plate weld on the side of the outrigger, I had an abrupt flare up that splattered out a little blob of metal onto the tungsten and made a small hole at the weld. I stopped immediately. I don't think I touched down the tip...and it behaved different than that. It seemed to be a localized contaminant that suddenly flared and spit metal out of the weld to leave a small hole. Could have been some oxide inside the tube at the prior weld bead, or maybe grinder grit. Not sure. I'm thinking it was most likely a bit of grinder grit embedded in the end of of the outrigger edge from when I trimmed it to fit the rail - even though I hit it with a file after grinding, and cleaned thoroughly with acetone. Took a break and then resumed by drilling into the little crater with small drill, and cleaned the edges with a conical burr, hit it with a scratch brush, then acetone wipe down. I tried welding it again to fill the hole, but still had trouble with strange arc color, bead not acting right, and a rusty orange deposit on the surface afterwards. Bummer! Tried removing some more material, being more aggressive with the burr to make sure I was in clean metal, then made a circular patch about 1/4" diam and welded it in. This weld went OK. I finished the patch with a file, then finished the original bead. This little set back really had me bummed, but it turned out fine, and fortunately was a low stress area on the parts.
Finished up the rest of the welds just fine. Here's what they look like with all the clamps removed:
With a long bubble level laid across the sliders from side to side, the outer slider tubes sit just a hair under 1/8" higher than the center frame rails. The overall level from slider to slider is good, i.e. both slider sides lifted from weld shrinkage by the same amount. I was of course aiming to have the frame rails and sliders sit perfectly co-planar after welding, so it's a little disappointing that I didn't achieve that- but it's not noticeable visually and is very workable. I think that shrinkage from the upper rail welds, combined with some flexibility of the outer 5" face of the frame rail caused the outriggers to pull upward even though they were thoroughly clamped.I still need to flip the frame over to do the bottom outrigger-to-rail welds, and will clamp everything well when I do those. The shrink from those may pull the outriggers back down a bit. It probably would have been better to weld the outrigger/rail top joint, then the bottom, then the sides...but I didn't want to tear everything down yet to get at the bottom welds, or do it overhead. Overall, I'm pretty happy with how they turned out.
Next up will add some trianglution with diagonal floor supports using smaller square tubes.
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Man, you have so much detail in your posts. Keep killing it with the transfer.
Fo'OnDaFlo'
Active member
Wow, great build thread! Thank you for the highly detailed write up that shows your thought process behind each step. This is invaluable information.
It's definitely not too much. It's just thorough and helps anyone trying to build similar stuff. I'm not nearly as thorough as I should be in my thread.
