1978 F-fun hundred 3/4 tons and 37s

I plan to port them myself. I enjoy digging on cast iron.

I’d like aluminum for the weight savings over the front axle but I have concerns with life expectancy issues. I want this engine to last the life of the truck.

So I’ll stick with iron. My ready to run cost will most likely be the same once a set of iron has been worked but I’ll just feel better about them. Quality valves, guides, seals etc is another focus.

For what the mad porter and those who follow his knowledge, stock heads, even D3s make some stupid grunt power.

My biggest questions are whether or not to deck the block, heads or both? Zero deck, out of the hole? Seems out of the hole is most favorable. Take advantage of the quench. Run 9-9.5 on 87. That’s what I want.

Cubes? Bore? Rod+piston combo? There’s so many ways to reach the same result. Offset ground factory crank, catalog crank, rod length. Seems some people like the dish I have or the last iteration of the fuelie piston for street use. I don’t plan to go beyond .040” so if more cubes are needed, I’ll need a crank. 502ci or less

It also depends on my local machine shop…

I’ll start by acquiring an intake and headers so that head porting and machine work can be accomplished. Probably L&L in frame shortys.
 
I dig it, I agree with you on the iron, seems like a long term deal, and something to be said for a good used core that has been thru countless heat cycles like the block. There is something cool about making old parts work too, the original hot-rodding.

Even with my botched first time port job following Scotty's instructions, I can tell a noticeable difference in my current 460 vs previous iron headed 429/460's with just the ol' ground the exhaust bumps treatment.

It seems like the later efi pistons lend themselves best just due to the 1.77 compression height. Had this saved from awhile back
piston ccs.png


I cant speak for decking much, over my head but I've got this all compiled into a word doc, much of it from Scotty.
Sounds like deck block only as much as needed to get 0 deck, leave as much on heads as you can. Use flat tops with D3, maybe late fuelie for pre 72 heads?

Hope this doesnt jumble up your thread too much. Happy to delete.

We grind a voodoo / comp hybrid. 219 / 230 @ .050" 110 .540" / .565" lift. (More of a hydraulic CJ equivalent.)

This cam will make:

450 hp and 557 TQ with budget ported iron heads at 10 to 1 with a performer intake and jomar equalizer.

460 hp and 550 TQ with large valve Doves at 10 to 1 with a performer intake and Jomar equalizer. (RPM intake needed)

454 HP and 530+ TQ with pocket ported iron cj's, SCJ intake at 10 to 1. No better than the above combos

510 hp and 561 TQ with ported SCJ A's and an RPM intake at 11 to 1

510 HP and 623 TQ with pocket ported SCJ's and an RPM intake at 9.6 to 1 ( 521 inches, 112 lsa designed for towing )


I posted these dyno results to note how cylinder head choice can have a net positive or negative effect with a given cam.


For unported iron heads or boats with restrictive through transom exhaust 219 / 233 @ .050" seems to work reasonably well

Regarding perf rpm intake -
10 to 15 ish as the performer intakes had the equalizer spacers on them.

When trying a power cone spacer recently on a similar combo with a bit less cam timing 213 / 226 but on a 112 lsa

557 Tq and 434 hp with Jomar equalizer.
553 Tq and 443 hp with jomar power cone.

In speaking with John at Jomar he asked me to do a back to back test. He was getting information back that on dual plane intakes WITHOUT a notched septum the powercone was adding power.

My testing confirmed this. TQ and power were better everywhere but at the torque peak. -4

When sitting the power cone on a performer or stealth intake you can see two small ovals where each side of the plenum can talk with the other lol...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is tuning notes on the Lunati 10340703



Lunati Voodoo cam 61603 (268°/276° adv duration, 227°/233° @.050", .552"/.564" lift, 110°LSA, 106° ICL) Edelbrock Performer RPM Air-Gap intake 800 cfm Rochester Quadrajet carburetor Summit Racing ignition box and Accel coil 3" dual exhaust w/ H-pipe and Flowmaster 40s

Love it. I've had a couple Voodoo cams now and have been pleased both times. This is the wilder of the two that I've used, and it's on a much bigger engine. It's still idles just fine in gear. It likes a lot of initial timing, I have it at 20°BTDC initial, maybe 35° total (all in by around 2300 RPM), and then another 13 or 14 degrees of vacuum advance. This motor has somewhere between 9.5-10.0:1 compression. I was running a Holley 800 double pumper for a while but got tired of the constant black smoke and switched over to a Quadrajet. It idles flawlessly and is super responsive off the line. All in all, this a great cam and it is perfect for the personality of this car. It's actually the wife's car and she is super happy with it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Stock 429/460 cam


C8SZ-6250-A Thunder Jet and later stock hydraulic cam
September 19 2009, 5:08 PM

256°/270° @ SAE - 193°/206° @ .050" - .253"/.278" lobe lift - .443/.487 valve lift - 110°/116° lobe centerlines - 113 LSA

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Head information



CYLINDER HEAD INFO gathered by DJOHAGIN



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------





460 hp build:

Parkland Performance Auto Machine | Tacoma WA

Use flat top pistons a few though below deck and set your D3 chambers to 95 cc's.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


425 hp 87 octane build:

Parkland Performance Auto Machine | Tacoma WA

This build uses H612 cp EFI pistons at 0 deck and 90 cc chambers for 9 to 1 static c/r.

Raise static c/r with flat tops near 0 deck and 95 cc chambers for 9.7 to 1 static and this combo will make 440 hp.


You will need to have the block cleaned, bored, honed, square decked .020" to .023" on a never decked block. You will have to measure your blocks currents deck height if it has been decked prior. Have the machine shop install the cam bearings as well as the oil galley plugs and freeze plugs.

RPM and heavy pistons kill OEM rods. A 100 shot of NOX with properly set piston ring gaps is allowable on oem rods that are properly resized. Upgraded rod bolts should be considered.


I do not recommend the OEM converter with either of these engine combos. A C6 factory high stall is a good fit at 2,100 to 2,300 and is cost effective. With your intended tire height, increased rolling mass and gearing a 2500 stall performance converter is a better fit for getting things moving from a stop.

Proper port work and a performance 3 angle valve job with the choke above the valves set at 90% of valve size, intake and exhaust valves back cut 27 to 30*, chamber unshrouded on the intake side, etc are essential to allowing the engine to breathe.

A properly curved distributor or ignition curve programmed into the EFI ecm.
Aluminum intake with no heat through the cross over.
180 stat for EFI or 160 for a carbed set up.

1.75" truck headers are fine as is 2.5" dual exhaust with an H or X.

The OEM rockers are fine for either of the above referenced builds. You must use good push rods of the proper length to set lifter plunger pre-load. A crane shim kit helps you to fine tune pre load. Scorpion makes a good bolt down aluminum roller rocker for the slotted pedestal heads. Scorpion makes the engine pro rockers we occasionally use on slotted pedestal heads when we turn up the wick a bit. The same fine tuning of the lifter pre-load still applies.

In the end it is all in the details.



----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


On the distributor recurve, what I usually see recommended for mild/stockish 460's is 16° advance weights, all in by 2500 rpm, with 16° to 20° static timing for a total of 36°.



Ford 460 Industrial Engine Natural Gas to Gasoline...
Click to expand...
 
the last of it
intake info -here you go something to read on intakes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The single plane torquer although a good intake is ill suited for use in a truck where torque is the name of the game. The single plane intake will trade torque downstairs for HP on the top end and if you do not have the cam to utilise it will make less overall average torque and HP than the performer. This is especially true if you use a 2" 4 hole spacer to add needed plenum volume to the performer.

Intake manifolds like all other components on a performance 460 should be chosen based on the choice of ancilliary components used for the build. A torque biased combo will be best suited when an intake with small runner cross section and high velocity is chosen.

The best intake by far for torque under 2.5K is the stock iron ford intake. Its problem is lack of plenum volume and the size of the holes on the carb pad.

Next in line is the performer intake which gives up a tick of torque below 2500 RPM but will add some 25 HP over the iron intake (stock pass car) and with a good spacer will add some 15 to 20 more HP for a total of some 40 HP. The performer has two different runner cross sections for a broader torque curve to some 4K. I use this intake on builds that utilise less than 220 degrees of duration @ .050" lift. 450 HP top side limit is about average.

Next in line is the performer RPM which starts to shine when you use more cam duration. I use it when duration @ .050" lift is above 220 @ .050" lift. It has larger runner cross section and will give up some low end torque and response below 3K vs the performer especially when the performer is paired with a spacer. I use it from 450 to 550 HP

The stealth is a higher RPM intake and I compare it with the RPM airgap which has smaller runner cross section than the stealth but larger than the rpm and performer. The airgap is by design meant to be port match per intended use. On a bench the airgap will out flow both stealth intakes due to its better runner velocity and larger plenum area. I use these higher RPM intake on builds that utilise a cam of 226 degrees duration @ .050" lift and above. I have yet to test the airgap against the stealth but my gut and experience along with some anecdotal track time evidence show it to be as good if not better than either stealth intake. Testing will bear this out and have the final say over my educated guestimate. If you do not have enough cam to utilise the higher RPM capabilities of the larger dual planes the trade off in low and mid range torque will not be off set at the higher RPM ranges these intakes are designed for. I use these from 550 to 650 HP which is about their limit.

With regard to testing all of the intakes on a combo with a 216 @ .050" lift cam I feel the results are suspect at best. You can not test a single plane intake such as the victor on a combo like this and expect it to be anything other than a rutting pig. The results show nothing more than which intake is best for a given combo but not overall. We have debated this ranking of intakes on the network 54 BBF forum and the statements I make here are more in line with consensus there.

The statement that a dual plane dual 4 barrel BT intake makes more HP is ludicrous at best. A victor is 40 to 50 HP better than ANY dual plane intake ever thought of being when a combo has the cam to utilise the RPM band the victor was designed for period.

My experience and the experiences of many engine builders I trust implicitly (from our BBF network 54 forum) bear out the fact that the stealth intake is a very good HP intake but it is softer on torque below 3 to 3.5K vs the stock intake and the performer by some 20 pound feet. From a driveability stand point it offers less runner velocity and response because its runner cross section is huge compared to any other intake mentioned here including the victor. For accelerating with a loaded trailer from a stand still I would bet the performer/spacer combo would outpace the stealth to the legal speed limit.

I steered my client to the performer because of the displacement and intended use. The fact that the performer pulled like a SOB well past the cams usuable rpm range bears this out in my mind. Hell the intake pulled well past the point of valve float onset and pulled like a freight train at that.

I am not convinced that a stealth would be a better overall intake for a mild combo like richards (or kevins) (both utilise the same cam by the way). I had both the stealth and airgap in stock at the time richards build was going together and felt that the performer was a better choice. Factors such as C/R, cylinderhead flow, cam specs and header design were part of my decision as well as fuel economy and I stand by it. Remember high runner velocity makes for great average torque and HP not fat flow numbers with big runner cross section. How a combo feels on the road in my butt dyno is a far greater indicater of client satisfaction than any dyno results believable or not.

By participating in engine masters I learned that average torque and HP with in a given RPM band are more important on a street biased combo than peak numbers be they torque or HP. Average numbers accelerate a combo far better than a peaky combo with poor overall performance across the lower end of the RPM window of operation. The heavier the vehicle the more important this is.

For kevins situation spending another $200.00 USD to add mabey 20 HP and give up 20 pound feet seems a waste of money when the performer and a spacer will do him just fine.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DISTRIBUTOR RE-CURVE - Duraspark_distributor_recurve_instructions_index

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



In a mild application the performer is about 15 to 20 hp better than OEM iron passenger car intakes. More torque at peak but less under peak. The iron intake offers good throttled torque under peak.

The CJ intake bolted on passenger car heads is worth about the same hp but gives up torque at peak due to large runner cross section. Part throttle response and throttled torque suffer. The same thing happens with the Stealth. It can be 40 lb feet down below the peak torque RPM. Poor response and transition are due to monstrous runner cross sectional area. The stealth is a great WOT intake if that is ones only concern.

At or less than 1 hp per CI we use the performer with a jomar power cone hood line permitting.
At 1 hp per CI up to about 600 ish we use the RPM. The Airgap offers a bit more runner cross section.

Around the 600 mark the Torker 2 works well but trades torque at peak for HP at peak. Lighter weight vehicle or larger displacement are good with this choice.
Click to expand...
 
Input is welcome. I’ll sift through it later. Think you’re right about pistons early vs D3. Love all the possibilities. Just gotta make sense of it all.

A lot of folks agree, D3 have lots of potential. Almost in a sense that Ford locked away the potential on purpose but while still producing something that appeased the overlords.
 
What is your 460 power goal, RPM range, budget?

Once ported, it doesn't matter what casting you use (assumption here is carb style heads). Big chamber little dish piston or the other way around. D3 w/ -12 cc (CP612) or D0 w/ -22 cc. D3 are free, D0 are not.

You will have to zero deck the block (w/ higher comp height piston) to run 87. Quench is gasket. No way around that. Yes you can plop small chamber D0/D1 heads on a block with pistons in the hole to raise CR enough to run a decent cam.

D3/CP612 zero deck is about 9.3:1 SCR and will support cams to 450 hp (217 intake). I run a 213 cam that is more 'truck' friendly. You can use stock pedestal stamped rockers on D3 but should buy decent push rods.

The porting is not hard, but the rest of the machine work to the heads is expensive. Quality head work is really expensive and backlog is forever.

On my build I chose to have Scotty J do the head machine work, and install the correct valves, guides, springs (specific for the cam), locks, seals. I also had him port them. To do it again I would port myself and buy all the hardware from Scotty, take a chance on local machining, and assembly myself.

The speedmaster castings are nothing special like the eddys. Not any better than a ported d3. The machining and hardware is crap. With enough money they can be a good head. The key to 385 series heads is a modern heart chamber and rotated valves (ARF, TFS, Ford). To me it's D3 or AFR. Any decent head incurs the additional cost of custom pistons, adjustable rockers, studs, valve covers, ect. $$$
 
502-521 ci , 5,500 and as close to 500+/ft lbs as I can get. Scotty is saying with AFR 280s they’ve got a low rpm truck combo that’s 650tq 550hp. Those are recent results. Other builds in the same neighborhood with Trick Flow and my goals with D3s.

I don’t have $20k for this but I’d rather spend money on something personally commissioned vs the $8k ATK 502
 
I think the one here doesn't, but I copied Scotty's 425hp/525tq D3 87 octane. The parts list are on the PPAM faceflop page.
basically;
CP612 pistons
213/227 cam
ported D3s
edel perf/Jomar power cone

Might as well do stroker if you have to buy custom pistons for AFR heads. The earlier blocks have short skirts and should limit stroke to 4.3, aka 521.

I'm dreaming of a pump gas 545 /w AFRs for 76 F100. 650hp/750tq and hit that with a 200 shot to pass magical 1000tq mark. I think cost would be 11k-ish.Fully dressed engine $15k.
 
D9 blocks for longer skirts, right?

Your pipe dream 545 would be insane!!!!
 
For something with longevity as a primary concern, it would be worth it to have the heads and block decked back to flat. Weather or not to zero deck the block depends on the pistons. There isn't going to be much gain in compression typically and depending on how much is left you are taking yourself out of one more flattening from that block in the future. Don't take any more out of the heads than the minimum to get back to within tolerance for flatness. Substantial amounts from the head lead into upstream issues for intakes, while it may not seem like much, runner alignment is important for the manifold. Sure, "gasket port matching" isn't the way to go, as gaskets vary and can do silly things, but it's nice to have intake runner and head runner aligned. Especially if you are taking the time for hand porting.

Can't say that it's worth getting too hung up on flame front, travel speed and the quench zone and even piston pressure side of the design of things for a, all things considered, low rpm build.

The head work is the fun part anyways :laughing:

Just my thoughts on it.
 
Provience said:
Eh, just an exhaust leak :flipoff2:
Click to expand...
I wish

Decking, right, I don’t want to get too crazy because I still need the intake to align and seal. That’s why I want the intake on hand, a proven spec and a machine shop that can bring it all together on that end of the build.
 
Provience said:
Absolutely **** it up again yourself :smokin:
Click to expand...
rattle_snake said:
Make that glass your bitch.
Click to expand...

Here we go 🍻
IMG_1840.jpeg
IMG_1841.jpeg
IMG_1842.jpeg
IMG_1843.jpeg

IMG_1846.jpeg

While the glass was out I added rivnuts for a future grab handle
IMG_1847.jpeg
IMG_1849.jpeg

Refreshed the pointers with fluorescent orange from HiPo parts. The right side backlight lens had popped out so I fixed that and got all the LEDs in order. Clear for everything and green for turn signals.
IMG_1850.jpeg
IMG_1853.jpeg
IMG_1855.jpeg


Voila!!! Holy ****. I did it by myself. Thanks to Matt Kubik. Ain’t no way I was gonna let that boy from Oklahoma one up me.
 
Transmission temp complete

Sending unit is 64-66 Mustang 289. Found these temp sending unit fittings on ANhosefittings.com. Sanded the anodizing off the flares and ram a tap through the threads for grounding. Taking the reading on the return after the radiator and air cooler.
IMG_1882.jpeg
IMG_1883.jpeg
IMG_1884.jpeg

Who can spot the transmission temp?
IMG_1890.jpeg

Piecing together my own fuel tank evaporative canister and recovery setup. XYZ GM charcoal canister and vacuum switch. The thermal switch is OE Ford. The idea is vent fuel tank to canister. Canister to manifold vacuum below the throttle blades. The switch will be thermally controlled after the thermostat. Once to temp, the switch opens and will be controlled by ported vacuum above the throttle blades.

A new fuel cap and fuel tank are also on order to be a fully sealed system. The new tank is also going to be modified for the submersible fuel pump for the fuel injection.
IMG_1881.jpeg
 
My vote is the ammeter is the trans temp gauge. I have yet to map the voltage transfer function. So did you just hook one side of gauge to the 5V-ish instrument reg and the other to sensor?

Is it possible to get one fitting that goes directly from trans to AN instead of two? I think the trans fittings are not tapered. I assume you are using a 1/2-20 IF to AN adapter. Stacking fittings is a long leverage arm on the small fitting/aluminum case. Why expensive soft hose over hard lines?

Given carb has atmospheric vented fuel bowls, does the canaster help? maybe your climate is cold enough?
 
Water temp is now transmission. Fuel, oil and water are the same movements and resistance range. 78-10. Ammeter will be converted to display voltage next. I simply connected the original water temp wire. Plug and play. Engine oil temp/pressure is next.

I really enjoy my gauge layout and didn’t want to waste three dead instruments. I’ll work on fitting the plastic overlay down the road. Radio will be a media receiver that I’ll mount in the glove box or something.

Transmission fitting. Yes, they make 1/8 NPS -6AN (not NPT) I had them but they were fragile. Replaced with OE steel 1/8 NPS x 1/2” IF which is much more robust. Later cases had 1/4 NPS. I’ll drill out the next case to 1/4 NPT or whatever I feel is appropriate when I build it.

Hose because it’s cheap compared to hard lines and tooling, I have coils of it available and it’s much more versatile as I navigate this build that’s constantly evolving. Eventually I’ll invest in 37* tooling but braided hose was a 30 min repair back in service.

The evaporative canister is for the fuel tank, not the carb. If I stay carb’d, I would vent the bowls to charcoal. Our fuel is very cold here. Fill your tank with 32* gas in 80* air temp and the volume change is exponential if not kept pressurized. I was fighting gas icing this winter which is why I had to reincorporate the intake manifold heat crossover. The fuel tank would literally have 1/4” of ice around the outside in -20* air temp and high humidity conditions. Anyways this is all part of moving towards the fuel injection.
IMG_1776.jpeg
 
And I want to mention that the temp gauge is very respondent to changes. Based on the chart above, it’s running 160-200* which reflects road speed, water temp and idle conditions. It’s fun entertainment while driving.
 
I forgot you are planning to go efi.

I'm wanting to map the ammeter to voltage and see if I can come up with something. Need a reference, maybe the existing one in cluster is good enough.
 
Some have success “mapping” the ammeter otherwise there is a guy who performs an instrument conversion for it to recognize voltage and he re-labels the face in a factory appearance. Rocketmans classic cougar.
 
I may have jumped the gun on efi. IDK, the price was right. My biggest concern is there seems to be a lot of bad press for all the bolt on TBI brands. I don’t want to be 1,500 miles from home and have something crap out. Traveling with spare carb, FP and dizzy would be ridiculous.

Sounds silly but TBI in the winter, carb in summer? Move away from Canadian border?

One thing is for sure, I’m dumping the electric choke for manual control and a double pumper.
 
Nah, just stick with the EFI. It'll be alright.

I'm a fan of carbs and manual choke for myself, the rest of the world seems to drool over this new fangled EFI stuff. Trend won't last :laughing:
 
There are two levels of automotive quality. OEM or not. The OEM stuff has a **** ton of specifications and testing that must be adhered to. They all have zero defect quality process. Aftermarket doesn't. No aftermarket EFI of any brand or configuration (TBI, MPI, ect) will have reliability and parts availability like OEM. TBI has nothing to do with it.
If reliability is top priority, use a modern stock engine, as is. mod, 6.2, 5.0, 7.3. 30+ year old factory EFI (EEC-x) stuff is past component design lifetime and parts are obsolete.

Even if you have spare air/fuel parts (or OEM system), there are other single-point of failures that can leave you stranded. Like torque converter seal.

I've had an injector fail on my Holley sniper system a long way from home. Long tow. Now I carry spare injectors, O2 sensor, regulator diaphragm.
 
Last edited:
WiscoF100 said:
I may have jumped the gun on efi. IDK, the price was right. My biggest concern is there seems to be a lot of bad press for all the bolt on TBI brands. I don’t want to be 1,500 miles from home and have something crap out. Traveling with spare carb, FP and dizzy would be ridiculous.

Sounds silly but TBI in the winter, carb in summer? Move away from Canadian border?

One thing is for sure, I’m dumping the electric choke for manual control and a double pumper.
Click to expand...
I feel you there. I bought a sniper kit for my C10 a couple years back on a whim during a sale, thinking it would be a great replacement for my carb. Since then I've seen so many people complaining about it I've been hesitant to put it on.

The carb can be frustrating, but at least it's mostly the same every time I turn the key. Lol
 
WiscoF100 said:
I may have jumped the gun on efi. IDK, the price was right. My biggest concern is there seems to be a lot of bad press for all the bolt on TBI brands. I don’t want to be 1,500 miles from home and have something crap out. Traveling with spare carb, FP and dizzy would be ridiculous.

Sounds silly but TBI in the winter, carb in summer? Move away from Canadian border?

One thing is for sure, I’m dumping the electric choke for manual control and a double pumper.
Click to expand...
Disclosure, I haven't tried any of the aftermarket efi kits.

Kinda researching ford efi options for a few years. As Said above, the ee ford Ald computers seem like they're becoming obsolete, and tuning hardware going away.

The option I keep returning to is megasquirt/microsquirt. Kinda of a steep learning curve, but allows you to use OEM sensors/injectors/coils. Just keep an extra computer in the glove box. Wish there was more time to learn and tune with one. The options seem endless using GM parts.
 
Last edited:
Gravy said:
Disclosure, I haven't tried any of the aftermarket efi kits.

Kinda researching ford efi options for a few years. As Said above, the ee ford Ald computers seem like their becoming obsolete, and tuning hardware going away.

The option I keep returning to is megasquirt/microsquirt. Kinda of a steep learning curve, but allows you to use OEM sensors/injectors/coils. Just keep an extra computer in the glove box. Wish there was more time to learn and tune with one. The options seem endless using GM parts.
Click to expand...
In the same boat, been considering a TBI setup off a chevy 350 for my stock 351w due to simplicity and cost
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Back Refresh